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Originally Posted by yamaneko
It most certainly is. after last year how many players did ruben patterson do better than statistically? yes did that make ruben patterson a better player than those guys? brand in 05/06 did better than almost any other PF/C in the league that year. Should we right after that year have said that brand was better than those guys? Your logic is not sound in this argument.
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It depends on who Patterson is being compared to, what role they had in their teams how much the teams depended on those players to make a difference in the win columns etc. Martin and Redd are comparable because they are both in the exact same situation – leaders of their teams. Martin clearly had the better individual season than Redd, thats indisputable he has him beat in all statistical categories except for assists, and incase you forget he also led his team to 12 more wins (18-19 adjusted).
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Wrong again. If you try to misapply an illustration is most certainly can be disagreed with. Your thesis was wrong, and has been proven many times to not be something that is sound. How a team does while a player is injured does not always mean much about that player. Just like i said, arenas and kobe's teams have done well with them out, that does not take anything away from their individual talent. To use facts in a wrong way is misleading. I could use facts such as "in the summer league paul davis this year put up consistently better stats than kaman, and the clippers did better as a unit when davis was in there." that would be a fact. But then if i tried to say, "thus kaman really isnt that good, he isnt the best player on the team, wed be better off with davis starting, etc. etc.", then id be misleading like you are doing. Bucks won/loss record without redd has little to no bearing on how redd's abilities should be viewed. Same as when the lakers did better with kobe out last year, did that mean kobe sucked? When the wizards did well without arenas, does that mean arenas isnt a star? Please.
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Lets look at the facts:
*Martin clearly had the better individual season statistically (PER’s: 21.07 vs 18.90)
*Martin has improved immensely each of his 4 seasons
*Redd declined noticeably the past season (scoring average down 4ppg, shooting %’s down across the board, you’d at least expect them to go up if he’s taking less shots)
[Interesting that Martin is already playing at a level above Redd, and they seem to be going in opposite directions at this stage in their careers]
*Martin’s led his team to 12 more wins (18-19 when adjusted for games missed with injuries)
-in a tougher conference
-with what you admit to be less talent surrounding him than redd had
*Martin’s team lost a higher percentage of games without him
*Redd’s team won a higher percentage of games without him
A recurring theme here has been that you keep trying to argue against numbers and facts, which have just been stacking up against redd. Any one of those facts listed above on their own wouldn’t mean much, you could come up with possible reasons why they shouldn’t be relied on to really indicate anything... but you look at that list in its entirety and the excuses like “bucks won/loss record without redd has little to no bearing on how redd's abilities should be viewed “ “kings are a worse team and their injuries are why martin’s stats are higher, and even though he led an injury depleted team to more wins that’s irrelevant” sound pretty silly. I don’t think you’ve provided any objective facts whatsoever to support your position that redd is better than martin. Your whole argument has been that he’s a more pure shooter, and as of their most recent performances, martin has him beat even in that area with his 40+ 3pt% and 87% ft%.
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Like i said, he improved a great deal from his rookie year. I certainly dont recall any discussions for most improved award for martin over the first two months of this season when the first month he averaged, what? 24 poitns a game? Then the second month of the season he was injured pretty much the whole month. WHen you use phrases like, " improved markedly each of his seasons", again its misleading. For someone not in the know, they might assume you are referring t oa guy who has improved over the course of 4, possibly 5 years, year to year. We heard that term a lot with maggette who did it over 6 years.
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Just comparing his scoring averages to keep it simple, Martin’s season by season ppg over his career have been:
04-05: 2.9
05-06: 10.8
06-07: 20.2
07-08: 23.7
That’s annual increases of 9.9, 9.4, and 3.5 over a 4 year period. Just over the past year, his scoring increased from what would be ranked 29th in the league, to 7th. How much more improvement would you say he’s needed to show during this season and over his career to qualify as “markedly improved” according to the Yamaneka dictionary?
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Again, me calling redd a star, superstar, elite player, super shooter, whatever, are all terms used by analysts for the last few years, all reasons why teams were ready t opay him whatever they could when he was a free agent, and the reason the bucks made sure to keep him. Just because some people on a message board might not agree with them and myself does that mean that we can put the "everyone else" moniker on it. lol
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The “everyone else moniker” was in particular reference to your definition of “improving markedly”. Which I’ve addressed in the above paragraph... I look forward to reading your definition of improving markedly, which precludes martin. You can add “franchise player” to the “everyone else moniker” list too. Write to Wikipedia and tell them that they have their definition wrong
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again, flawed logic. Lets see what happens over 2 yers, 3 years, 4 years, when were talking about someone with the history of redd, and an up and comer like martin. Couple years ago mike james averaged 20 points and 6 assists. That was better than most PG's in the league. Did that make him better than those guys? No, what he did over the course of 3/4 years could determine that. And there have been guys who prove themselves better. Rey allens in the beginning of his career put up some nice numbers, but like kevin martin was not yet referred to as a star SG. He did better than one of the current star guards of the time, reggie miller. But most analysts used caution in calling him great, or a star yet until about his 4th season when it was obvious, yes, this guy had something special. Same with redd, you didnt hear him called a star, even after his 8 three pointers in the 4th, until around 05, when it was obvious...this wasnt just a fluke, this guy has incredible game, yes we think hes a star. I never said martin will never reach that level. on the contrary i have stated he very well could get there due to his age. But its premature to say hes at that level yet, or even surpassed someone like redd. I dont buy it, and you dont hear any analysts saying that neither. Next year, if martin averages say 25 points, plays most of the year, i guarantee you will start hearing him in that kind of context.
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This is what that reply was in reference to:
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Originally Posted by BonKeRz
And yes, he is playing at a higher level than Redd. He was more productive, and led his team to more wins. I can't see what other ways that you can objectively measure you can use to say that redd played at a higher level.
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Where is the flawed logic in that? I’ve supported my assertions with facts and numbers. You want to wait 2, 3, 4 years to see who’s right? That’s your argument? Lol
Its laughable to call redd a superstar and point to the 8 three pointers he’s hit in the 4th quarter as his greatest achievement... Donyell Marshall’s hit 12 three’s in a game once, guess that makes him a star and deserving of a top 3 place among pure shooting fwds in the world lol
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Sorry if i offend you by taking the stance that one and a half years of nice 20+ point ball does not put someone on the level of a michael redd with his resume the last 5+ years.
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I’m not offended. I’m not even a fan of martin. Don’t think he cracks the top 10 sg’s in the league, he’d be somewhere right on the edge.. but the fact that you could argue such a strong case about him being a better player than Redd really makes your assertion on the first post look very silly.
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The guy is a 39% career 3 poitn shooter. Kobe is 34%. Ray ALlen 39.7%. Reggie miller 39%. Tmac 33.7%. All guys who have been doing it a long time, and i would not call redd's percentages poor. I was the one citing noted experts on the game, saying the same things I wa ssaying. I wasnt posting the raving madness of people on other message boards, i am posting professional opinions which happened to be similar to mine. I thought it quite interested that it was just posted a few days ago. if you cannot see how bringing jason kapono into the argument when it is totally off topic as to the context of the discussion, then thats just a dissapointment coming from someone who portrays himself to be a logical thinker.
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He's a good shooter with good career numbers, but look how much the %'s and other numbers have declined in the past season. You haven’t taken that into account at all, yet you call my logic faulty
Its good that you posted those professional opinions of the reasons why redd’s such a great player. And it was good seeing bootstrenf shoot down that list of reasons with one role player comparison. It was in the context of the discussion, if you (or a “professional opinion”) say a player is a superstar for x y and z reasons, and there are other players in the league who also meet that same criteria but clearly aren't superstars, then logic says just because a player can do x y and z it doesn’t mean he’s a superstar. If you can’t make that simple connection of why kapono was relevant to the discussion, well I don’t think I can help you
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Dwight howard shows special skill set that makes him an obvious star, a definate max player, and puts up numbers that very few guys in the last 20 years can do. You are seriously comparing kevin martin's game and stats to howard? Martin does have a part of his game that is really top top flight yet, hes just been a very well rounded player the last year and a half, nothing to scoff at, but nothing to compare him to dwight howard. Or lebron james for that matter, who just 2 months of watching him you could tell this guy had superstar talent. Kevin durant, correct, im not sure that guy is a superstar yet. At his age, i really think he could be, but id like to wait a year first .
Deron williams, im reluctant to call a star, but i do admit he probably should be considered one...but he also has 160 games under his belt already of 18 points, 10 assists to his name. How many guys in the league can say that for the last few years? Martin this year, did dang good in scoring, only 5 guys averaged more than him, but heck, only 1 piont a game more than maggette, and his rebound and assist werent exactly on the level of, well this guy had an incredible year, its obvious hes a superstar already level.
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So this Yakamano rule states that a player cannot receive credit for playing at a high level for 2 years or less, but it doesn’t apply to select players which meet some other kind of criteria set by Yakamano. Gotcha!
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Michael redd himself wasnt one of those right away superstars. Took a while for us to say hes arrived. Mcgrady took a few ywars, but did have a ONE HIT year and boom he was a star, without having to look further, due to his averaging 27 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks, 2 steals. Sorry if im not going to put martin on that level where he can have a year and a half of 22 poitns a game, and then hes all of a sudden passed up guy slike redd?
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I’m not trying to put Martin up on that level. Rather I’m showing that Redd doesn’t belong there right now.
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im the one who makes up definitions of my own terms? Elton brand has been called a franchise player numerous times, so has most other max or near max players who are the best on their team. I am NOT saying redd is on the level of kobe, duncan, etc, matter of fact i have said the opposite. Id say this is a 50/50 term with many having their own definitions of it. Im willing to accept that some people say franchise player to refer to the kobes of the world. But the other half of the people, again, including media, also use the term to refer to who the best player on the team is, usually after the team invests heavily in such a player. Not sure what point youre trying to prove. Ive already said redd is not that definition of franchise player, of which probaby only 4 guys in the league are, but rather he is a franchise player in the definition of thats how the bucks viewed him when they signe dhim, hes by far the best player on the team, and the guy they have been trying to build the team around for a couple years. You cant really deny those facts, so not sure what point youre trying to make.
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Ok this is starting to get tiring. I provide fact, link, objective definition… and you argue that 50% of people don’t use that definition. What evidence do you have to back this statement? Let me re-paste part of the definition, because I don’t think I could say this any better:
The misnomer that a franchise player is only "the best player on a team" disregards the fact that an inordinately bad team will undoubtedly still employ a player with superior skills, relative to his team. However, such a player could be so bad in comparison to players at-large that labeling such a player as a franchise player would be inappropriate.
You called Redd a franchise player. You were called out on it, and you still defended your position that Redd fits the bill as a franchise player. You were WRONG. Labelling him that would be a misnomer.
Misnomer:
1. a misapplied or inappropriate name or designation.
2. an error in naming a person or thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misnomer
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thats a paradox there. You cannot always prove that a guy has "led" his team to 15 more wins in a season, as if you can statistically point to leadership qualities , and other intangibles that "leading" a team has to do with. And im not saying neither id pick robert horry over elton brand because horry hits game winners...again, were talking about stars here, guys considered elite at their positions. If you take two players with similar stats, you go for the one who is a clutch performer, a guy who can take over games down the stretch. Which is why id rather have a star guard or SF that we could pay max money to as opposed to brand.
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Any casual fan knows martin’s been the best player on the kings, and redd’s been the best player on the bucks. If you need me to statistically prove to you that the number of wins they had was related to how they “led” their teams... well its like me telling you 1 + 1 = 2, and you saying “prove it”. I’ve stated several reasons and facts why martin’s been a better player than red, you haven’t got a single one yet that says otherwise.
You go with your clutch performer who’s been a perennial loser, and I’ll go with the guy that gets more wins. Btw I have no idea how many game winners martin’s hit over the last couple years, I don’t even know that he hasn’t hit more than redd. And tell me how many game winners shaq has hit over his career. Not too many I’m guessing... but I bet you’d take a player with his ability to put his team in a position to get the W over his career over 99.9% of the other "clutch" players in the league.
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yes. ray allen for years has been considered the top SHOOTING guard around (not SG per ce), and with good reason. He has incredible skills. but hes on the decline, and rightfully so as he is getting up there in years. I think redd might have passed, or is passing him up in star quality.
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Redd hasn’t passed Allen in star quality. And that's another one of your own definitions or categories... if you’re only considering shooting skills then why isn't someone like kapono the top SHOOTING guard in the league?
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Hes a decent shooter, but not sure that he has that quick of a release, that its consistent, nor that hes one of the best catch and shoot.
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Dont know what so hilarious about it. Im the one sharing opinions of a lot of professionals out there. And yes, kapono is a decent shooter, and during the game he is not a lights out quick shooter like redd, if he could consistently score from outside during the flow of a game, wouldnt you say that hed be averaging more than 7 points a game? If he was one of the bes tin the league at catch and shoot, wouldnt you say hed do it more often? Again, the reason why kaponos name should not even be brought up in a thread like this.
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Its hilarious because Kapono is one of the best shooters in the league, with a very quick release timed at faster than 0.3 seconds as evidenced in the vid, is consistent, and he’s one of the best at catch and shooting he actually makes a living off that. And you’re still defending your statement! That’s the hilarious part