OBW Catch-All Thread

[uvm84]

Exactly my point, Corey Lowe and Mike Trimboli we're both great players in the conference.

[uvm4life20]

i've read they use play by play data as well

[Air Holland]

Originally Posted by uvm84

Exactly my point, Corey Lowe and Mike Trimboli we're both great players in the conference.

If that was your point, you should have just said it.

LittleMike's point: Mike Trimboli wasn't clutch
Your point: If Mike Trimboli was overrated then so was Corey Lowe

This makes no sense. To the extent that anyone - specifically, LittleMike - may consider Trimboli "overrated," the reason is generally tied to his reputation (deserved or otherwise) as someone who came up short in "clutch" situations. And your counterexample is the one BU player who consistently came up big in important games? LittleMike calling Corey Lowe a great player would be entirely consistent - if he's looking at "clutch" performance on an individual level, Corey Lowe is the one BU player whose career record actually stands up under close scrutiny.

On second thought, I've been trolled enough for one day.

[Air Holland]

Originally Posted by uvm4life20

i've read they use play by play data as well

Then explain how sites calculate Offensive Rating for players for whom play-by-play data is unavailable.

You can get Offensive Rating from the play-by-play data because you can get all of the cumulative totals from the play-by-play data. But the play-by-play data isn't a prerequisite, because the cumulative totals provide all of the necessary inputs.

There aren't many areas where I claim to have extensive knowledge, but the way these stats are calculated is something I'm quite familiar with. I've written programs to parse box scores and calculate PER. If there's one aspect of basketball I have a good handle on, it's the statistics.

[LittleMike]

Originally Posted by uvm84

Speaking of stupidity, apparently it isn't just restricted to UVM fans, Little Mike's comment proves BU fans can be just as stupid.

So Little Mike I guess this means Corey Lowe was highly overrated too then, right.

The writing style of this post smells all too familiar UVMHoopCat. Please stop being "gutless" by hiding behind a pseudonym and address Trimboli's reputation without bashing one of the greatest players in BU history who carried his team during the Dennis Wolff era.

[UVM Hoop Cat]

Originally Posted by LittleMike

The writing style of this post smells all too familiar UVMHoopCat Please stop being "gutless" by hiding behind a pseudonym and address Trimboli's reputation without bashing one of the greatest players in BU history who carried his team during the Dennis Wolff era.

Ummm, that's not me.

You're obsession with Trimboli is tired anyways. Find some new material.

Anyways, for the record as far as careers go Trimboli achieved far more more in the post season and individually than Corey Lowe did.

[Air Holland]

Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat

Ummm, that's not me.

You're obsession with Trimboli is tired anyways. Find some new material.

Anyways, for the record as far as careers go Trimboli achieved far more more in the post season and individually than Corey Lowe did.

Agree with the first two parts. It's pretty clear that's not you

I'm not sure how you get to the third part though. It's not like either of them ever won anything of consequence, and none of Trimboli's AE tournaments hold a candle to what Lowe did as a senior. I'm sure you have some sort of argument, but that's a really, really hard sell. Lowe's 2010 tournament was borderline-absurd (even more so when you consider his form during the month of February).

[UVM Hoop Cat]

Originally Posted by Air Holland

I'm not sure how you get to the third part though. It's not like either of them ever won anything of consequence, and none of Trimboli's AE tournaments hold a candle to what Lowe did as a senior. I'm sure you have some sort of argument, but that's a really, really hard sell. Lowe's 2010 tournament was borderline-absurd (even more so when you consider his form during the month of February).

It's not difficult. If you sum things up both individually and team- Trimboli comes out ahead in every category.

Trimboli got his team to 2 AE championships- Lowe 1. Trimboli got UVM to the title game as a freshman as a #6 seed- a team that was totally rebuilding and had no business being there. I'd say that certainly equates on the impressive side to what Lowe did to get BU into the title game as senior, all things considered.

Trimboli played in the NIT, CBI- where he scored his 2,000th point. No NIT for Lowe. Where was Lowe again with his team during their CBI run? Right....

Individually Trimboli scored more points, had more assists, his FG% improved every year, is his school's all-time assists leader...etc etc

So as you can see- not too hard to follow where I got to the third part.

[Air Holland]

Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat

It's not difficult. If you sum things up both individually and team- Trimboli comes out ahead in every category.

Trimboli got his team to 2 AE championships- Lowe 1. Trimboli got UVM to the title game as a freshman as a #6 seed- a team that was totally rebuilding and had no business being there. I'd say that certainly equates on the impressive side to what Lowe did to get BU into the title game as senior, all things considered.

Trimboli played in the NIT, CBI- where he scored his 2,000th point. No NIT for Lowe. Where was Lowe again with his team during their CBI run? Right....

Individually Trimboli scored more points, had more assists, his FG% improved every year, is his school's all-time assists leader...etc etc

So as you can see- not too hard to follow where I got to the third part.

I was focusing more on the post-season part of your claim, but we can take both post-season and overall career into consideration.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. UVM definitely got to the championship game when Trimboli was a freshman in 2005-06... and these are Trimboli's stat lines from those games:

QF: 12 points, 4-14 FG, 4/5 A/TO
SF: 12 points, 2-9 FG, 6/5 A/TO, 3 steals
F: 16 points, 4-14 FG, 3/0 A/TO, 3 steals

I wouldn't go so far as to say that's an awful tournament - and stats aren't everything - but that in no way equates to Lowe's tournament. Come on, dude. Lowe carried BU through the semifinal against a Stony Brook team that BU hadn't been able to figure out, and dismantled the POY to boot.

Personally, I couldn't care less about NIT/CBI/whatever - and if we're going to count Trimboli's getting to the NIT we also have to consider that he shot 2-14 from the field when he got there.

I mean, honestly... what more is Lowe supposed to do in the postseason? His last four games in the AE tournament were all monster games. Is it his fault that the rest of his team didn't show up for two of them? At the end of the day, neither Lowe nor Trimboli won a tournament, but at least Lowe saved his absolute best performances for his junior and senior tournaments. You can't say the same thing about Trimboli. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that Trimboli was the biggest reason his teams fell short, but it's not like Vermont lost those games despite monster performances from Trimboli.

In re: Trimboli scoring more points, Lowe had a higher per-game average while spending the first three years of his career playing in an extremely slow offensive system - Trimboli's Vermont teams averaged about six more possessions per game, which is about a 10% advantage. Give BU an extra six possessions per game for those three years, and Lowe's PPG average jumps up near 18 PPG and the difference in total points nearly vanishes. So unless you're going to give Trimboli credit for playing for Lonergan, that's a wash.

Trimboli was undoubtedly a better passer; Lowe was a better rebounder. Neither guy was a great defender; neither was an awful defender. Trimboli was more efficient - some of that is undoubtedly due to Trimboli having a teammate who drew regular double-teams resulting in open jumpers, while Lowe had no equivalent teammate (even if Holland occasionally drew a second defender on a drive, I can probably count the number of times Holland kicked the ball out to Lowe off penetration on one hand), but even after adjusting for that Trimboli is still the more efficient player.

I can see an argument for taking Trimboli's regular season career over Lowe's - if I didn't care about the post-season at all and was only interested in career totals, I'd be hard-pressed not to take Trimboli. But let's not act like he had a far better career. Nothing you've presented supports that assertion. And I still maintain that nothing Trimboli did in the post-season, other than win one more tournament game (Trimboli's teams were 5-4, Lowe's were 4-4; Lowe had to deal with slightly worse seeding overall but I'm not about to give him credit for that) by virtue of not having his entire supporting cast completely fall apart, even approaches what Lowe did as a junior and senior in March. You can count the NIT and CBI if you want - I really don't care about those tournaments at all. Your mileage may vary

[UVM Hoop Cat]

Originally Posted by Air Holland

I was focusing more on the post-season part of your claim, but we can take both post-season and overall career into consideration.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. UVM definitely got to the championship game when Trimboli was a freshman in 2005-06... and these are Trimboli's stat lines from those games:

QF: 12 points, 4-14 FG, 4/5 A/TO
SF: 12 points, 2-9 FG, 6/5 A/TO, 3 steals
F: 16 points, 4-14 FG, 3/0 A/TO, 3 steals

I wouldn't go so far as to say that's an awful tournament - and stats aren't everything - but that in no way equates to Lowe's tournament. Come on, dude. Lowe carried BU through the semifinal against a Stony Brook team that BU hadn't been able to figure out, and dismantled the POY to boot.

Personally, I couldn't care less about NIT/CBI/whatever - and if we're going to count Trimboli's getting to the NIT we also have to consider that he shot 2-14 from the field when he got there.

I mean, honestly... what more is Lowe supposed to do in the postseason? His last four games in the AE tournament were all monster games. Is it his fault that the rest of his team didn't show up for two of them? At the end of the day, neither Lowe nor Trimboli won a tournament, but at least Lowe saved his absolute best performances for his junior and senior tournaments. You can't say the same thing about Trimboli. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that Trimboli was the biggest reason his teams fell short, but it's not like Vermont lost those games despite monster performances from Trimboli.

In re: Trimboli scoring more points, Lowe had a higher per-game average while spending the first three years of his career playing in an extremely slow offensive system - Trimboli's Vermont teams averaged about six more possessions per game, which is about a 10% advantage. Give BU an extra six possessions per game for those three years, and Lowe's PPG average jumps up near 18 PPG and the difference in total points nearly vanishes. So unless you're going to give Trimboli credit for playing for Lonergan, that's a wash.

Trimboli was undoubtedly a better passer; Lowe was a better rebounder. Neither guy was a great defender; neither was an awful defender. Trimboli was more efficient - some of that is undoubtedly due to Trimboli having a teammate who drew regular double-teams resulting in open jumpers, while Lowe had no equivalent teammate (even if Holland occasionally drew a second defender on a drive, I can probably count the number of times Holland kicked the ball out to Lowe off penetration on one hand), but even after adjusting for that Trimboli is still the more efficient player.

I can see an argument for taking Trimboli's regular season career over Lowe's - if I didn't care about the post-season at all and was only interested in career totals, I'd be hard-pressed not to take Trimboli. But let's not act like he had a far better career. Nothing you've presented supports that assertion. And I still maintain that nothing Trimboli did in the post-season, other than win one more tournament game (Trimboli's teams were 5-4, Lowe's were 4-4; Lowe had to deal with slightly worse seeding overall but I'm not about to give him credit for that) by virtue of not having his entire supporting cast completely fall apart, even approaches what Lowe did as a junior and senior in March. You can count the NIT and CBI if you want - I really don't care about those tournaments at all. Your mileage may vary

The bottom line here is if you called one player Player X (Trimboli) and one Player Y (Lowe) and removed their name & school affiliation and just laid both their individual and team accomplishment statistics out on a table and asked the question " which career would you rather have"- no objective, rational, intelligent, sane person would take Player Y over Player X. 0 people would choose Player Y over Player X.


While I admire your arguments for Lowe, that's really kinda it.


Additionally, Trimboli's Vermont team won a lot more games overall than Lowe's BU teams as well and I didn't even mention that. Yeah, the NIT game we got to we almost beat Kansas State and despite shooting poorly Mike did have 11 assists- which you probably meant to leave out.

I'm not sure how you can discount the CBI/NIT because those tournament and the America East tournament is the only post season play either player was involved in so to not count it for some strange reason when we're talking about post-season play between the two makes zero sense to me.

Additionally, the truth is America East teams aren't getting into either tournament unless they have been pretty darn good. BU's win in the CBI in 09-10?

That CBI win was BU's first post-season victory in 51 years.


And Lowe bailed on his teammates -either by mistake (which would just be dumb on him) or on purpose. Either way, he looks terrible. Who does that? The answer to that question is Corey Lowe.

[bob87]

You don't understand how people discount the NIT/CBI. Still. It is because no one wants to go to those tournaments and no one cares about them. I saw Trimboli cry 4 times when he and his team failed to get to the ncaa tournament. I was watching the NCAA tournament if and when he played games after that. If there is a single AE player who would rather have a CBI win than an ncaa tournament loss on his resume, I would be shocked and I certainly wouldn't want him on my team.
Countinue on with your UVM homerism, but a sane fan would ask what do each player have around them before answering your player X and Y question with an absolute answer.

[UVM Hoop Cat]

Originally Posted by bob87

You don't understand how people discount the NIT/CBI. Still. It is because no one wants to go to those tournaments and no one cares about them. I saw Trimboli cry 4 times when he and his team failed to get to the ncaa tournament. I was watching the NCAA tournament if and when he played games after that. If there is a single AE player who would rather have a CBI win than an ncaa tournament loss on his resume, I would be shocked and I certainly wouldn't want him on my team.
Countinue on with your UVM homerism, but a sane fan would ask what do each player have around them before answering your player X and Y question with an absolute answer.

Bob thanks for adding nothing per usual. The NCAA is more important than the other tournaments? Gee, what a brilliant revelation Bob.

Neither player made it to the NCAA's

The post-season is the conference tournament, NCAA/NIT/CBI/CIT. Since neither got to the NCAA's, the NIT and CBI is all we got.

Even if someone wants to only use conference tournament, Trimboli got his team to 2 conference finals (when it was more "his team")where Lowe got his team to 1.

2 > 1

Win.

[farfromtheshow]

Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat

And Lowe bailed on his teammates -either by mistake (which would just be dumb on him) or on purpose. Either way, he looks terrible. Who does that? The answer to that question is Corey Lowe.

I'm only going to get involved in this part of the argument - which is 100 percent factually wrong... I really don't have any problem with the fact that we disgree often on scouting/ranking players, or who's better, etc. What does, to this day, still get at me is when you make seemingly factual statements on players and their actions when your statement is backed up with nothing but speculation...

While the Corey Lowe/Pat Chambers divorce has never fully come to light, his former teammates are 100 percent in agreement that Corey Lowe did not leave the BU basketball team, and he certainly did not leave the Terriers of his own free will... Chambers comments that Lowe was moving on with his life/career (paraphrasing) were 100 percent misleading and innacurate.

What is known: Lowe met with an agent, an agent who went out of his way to contact Lowe and arrange a meeting. No contracts were signed, money discussed, etc. Lowe technically did not violate any NCAA rules or regulations. On the flip side, it is understandable that Chambers, in his first year as head coach, did not even want to mess with anything involving an agent and even sniff an NCAA violation and removed Lowe from the team. To a man, every member of that team has told the same story: Lowe did not quit the team, Chambers gave him the boot...

What has not been discussed, however, but has been either implied our outright stated by Lowe's former teammates, is that Chambers and Lowe butted heads frequently, and that Lowe played most of the year severely injured and was not going to be able to play against VCU in the CBI. Several former teammates have said that the feeling was, if Lowe could have been able to physically play, he would have been on the team for the CBI semifinal. However, once he couldn't play, the agent was the excuse needed for Chambers to remove him from the team.

Don't shoot the messenger, this is an account that has been corroborated by A LOT of people very close to the situation, and to imply that Lowe bailed on his teammates is just factually innacurate and its irrisponsible to pass off that opinion as fact.

[UVM Hoop Cat]

Sam, I know you're the ultimate player apologist- but Either way, my previous point remains- he did something to get himself removed from the team- which is on him. Its that whole personal accountability thing. Whether it was talking with an agent, disciplinary reasons, etc. He wasn't there for his team.

Chambers isn't going to dismiss Lowe for simply no reason.

That being said, looks like Trimboli and Lowe share more things in common (butting heads w/ coaches).

[farfromtheshow]

Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat

Sam, I know you're the ultimate player apologist- but Either way, my previous point remains- he did something to get himself removed from the team- which is on him. Its that whole personal accountability thing. Whether it was talking with an agent, disciplinary reasons, etc. He wasn't there for his team.

Chambers isn't going to dismiss Lowe for simply no reason.

That being said, looks like Trimboli and Lowe share more things in common (butting heads w/ coaches).

The biggest thing Lowe did was get hurt.