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Old 10-24-2011, 07:26 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat View Post
Bob thanks for adding nothing per usual. The NCAA is more important than the other tournaments? Gee, what a brilliant revelation Bob.

Neither player made it to the NCAA's

The post-season is the conference tournament, NCAA/NIT/CBI/CIT. Since neither got to the NCAA's, the NIT and CBI is all we got.

Even if someone wants to only use conference tournament, Trimboli got his team to 2 conference finals (when it was more "his team")where Lowe got his team to 1.

2 > 1

Win.
And Trimboli was the biggest reason UVM got to those two conference finals? Get real.

Replace Trimboli with *random good combo guard* and UVM still makes two conference finals - or did he carry his teams in those games? Trimboli was average at best in the tourney his freshman year. He had a good game in the semis his sophomore year - outplayed Jay Greene - but again, if you replace Trimboli with "generic good combo guard performance" they still win that game.

Replace Lowe with any other player in the league and BU gets blown out by UMBC in 2009 and loses the semifinal in 2010. I don't see how this is even up for debate.

I want Trimboli on my team from November through February - but when the rest of my team hits the snooze button too many times and I need somebody to put the team on his back, I'm taking Lowe every day and twice on Sunday.

Obviously this comes down to personal preference. You value CBI/NIT appearances and wins. I don't. I understand why the tournaments exist, but I don't take any real interest in them, because if my team is in one of those tournaments it only means they lost the one tournament that actually matters. Nobody's going to brag about how their team won two games in the CBI.

If I was BU's AD I would only put up banners for NCAA appearances. That's just me though.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:41 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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The biggest thing Lowe did was get hurt.
No way.

That would be like if Lonergan kicked Fjeld off the team before the NIT game against Cleveland State last season. That's both ridiculous and unheard of.

And I'm not saying you're lying or making it up because you are just passing along information that someone has given you- but the only way I'd ever believe that is if I spoke to Lowe directly, Chambers directly, and then the BU AD directly.

Absent of that, I'm sorry but I simply would never believe that.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:46 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

I get why people are comparing Trimboli and Lowe, but it's really kind of a silly discussion, since, unless all the other pieces of each team are identical, there's not really any way to quantify who was better. Is it possible/probable that either player had better pieces around him and that contributed to his success? Although Trimboli had a great career stat wise, I don't think that tells the whole story. I saw Corey play quite a bit (for a guy that's not a BU fan) and yes, he did have some choke jobs, but I agree with Air Holland. If I were picking teams, I'd choose Corey before Mike every time.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:58 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat View Post
No way.

That would be like if Lonergan kicked Fjeld off the team before the NIT game against Cleveland State last season. That's both ridiculous and unheard of.

And I'm not saying you're lying or making it up because you are just passing along information that someone has given you- but the only way I'd ever believe that is if I spoke to Lowe directly, Chambers directly, and then the BU AD directly.

Absent of that, I'm sorry but I simply would never believe that.
That's fine, but as an aside, there are a lot of people in high places around BU who tell the same story: Lowe wasn't Chambers' guy. There was a lot of discomfort/distrust, and they butted heads a lot, but nothing to the point of kicking Lowe off the team... But Chambers didn't feel any sort of allegiance to him. He rode Lowe as long as he was hot, but wasn't a big fan of his. Once Lowe was done for the season, he found cause to get rid of him. Had all the same stuff happened and Lowe been healthy enough to play versus VCU, he would have been in uniform and played versus VCU. Fine if you don't believe it, but I wouldn't be so quick to discredit what I'm saying... I've more than done my homework on this one, if I hadn't I would under no circumstances be putting it out there.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:59 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by Air Holland View Post
And Trimboli was the biggest reason UVM got to those two conference finals? Get real.

Replace Trimboli with *random good combo guard* and UVM still makes two conference finals - or did he carry his teams in those games? Trimboli was average at best in the tourney his freshman year. He had a good game in the semis his sophomore year - outplayed Jay Greene - but again, if you replace Trimboli with "generic good combo guard performance" they still win that game.

Replace Lowe with any other player in the league and BU gets blown out by UMBC in 2009 and loses the semifinal in 2010. I don't see how this is even up for debate.

I want Trimboli on my team from November through February - but when the rest of my team hits the snooze button too many times and I need somebody to put the team on his back, I'm taking Lowe every day and twice on Sunday.

Obviously this comes down to personal preference. You value CBI/NIT appearances and wins. I don't. I understand why the tournaments exist, but I don't take any real interest in them, because if my team is in one of those tournaments it only means they lost the one tournament that actually matters. Nobody's going to brag about how their team won two games in the CBI.

If I was BU's AD I would only put up banners for NCAA appearances. That's just me though.
If you don't think Trimboli contributed to getting UVM into the championship his freshman and sophomore seasons, then you need to get real. That's just crazy.

Quite frankly, whether you choose to value the NIT/CBI/CIT makes zero difference to this debate. Just because you don't assign value to it doesn't mean it has no value- especially when debating post-season play.

Further, I know plenty of people that find it valuable. Ask any mid-major coach if they think it's valuable. I'm sure most would tell you they would love to win their conference and get into the NIT if they can't make the NCAAs.

Ask Mike Trimboli if scoring his 2,000th point playing in the CBI meant something to him. Ask Steve Pikiell and Fiore if hosting Illinois in the NIT meant something to their basketball program- which had previously never experienced anything like that. Ask Pat Bergmann if the Cleveland State game last year meant anything to him.

I'm pretty certain that Woodward, Monroe, Gallagher, and Herrion would give up an appendage to get their schools into the NIT this season. Maybe not Macon, I don't feel like he has a sense of urgency
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:31 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

I don't mean to disrupt this conversation, but I would just say this...I think the NIT has some merit and value, but the CBI, CIT and whatever other ridiculous tournament they come up with is just a bunch of crap in my opinion. Those tournaments just make it like the Bowls for college football where you get a bunch of mediocre, .500 teams playing in a meaningless event just to say they were in the "postseason".

The NCAA takes 68 teams, the NIT then takes 32, the CBI takes 16, the CIT takes 24 now...making 140 teams that play in postseason college hoops. That's just plain absurd. For what it's worth, teams that don't make the NCAA or any other event are allowed to still practice and work on getting better as a team so they aren't shut out of extra competition/time on the court.

Lastly, the TV contracts kind of bear this out, with the NCAA Tournament costing CBS $6.2 billion, NIT costing ESPN $24.1 million and well, I think the CBI & CIT actually have to pay a TV station to broadcast those games. I jest, but can't imagine Fox College Sports or HDNet are really paying very much at all for those regional at best games. At least the NIT doesn't seem to get referred to as the teams "Not In Tournament" as much anymore...or called the "Loser's Tournament".

Anyway, back to our originally scheduled broadcast...
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:42 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat View Post
If you don't think Trimboli contributed to getting UVM into the championship his freshman and sophomore seasons, then you need to get real. That's just crazy.

Quite frankly, whether you choose to value the NIT/CBI/CIT makes zero difference to this debate. Just because you don't assign value to it doesn't mean it has no value- especially when debating post-season play.

Further, I know plenty of people that find it valuable. Ask any mid-major coach if they think it's valuable. I'm sure most would tell you they would love to win their conference and get into the NIT if they can't make the NCAAs.

Ask Mike Trimboli if scoring his 2,000th point playing in the CBI meant something to him. Ask Steve Pikiell and Fiore if hosting Illinois in the NIT meant something to their basketball program- which had previously never experienced anything like that. Ask Pat Bergmann if the Cleveland State game last year meant anything to him.

I'm pretty certain that Woodward, Monroe, Gallagher, and Herrion would give up an appendage to get their schools into the NIT this season.
I never said Trimboli didn't contribute - I said Lowe carried his team in a way that Trimboli simply didn't. Again, I don't see how that's even up for debate.

In re: Woodward/Monroe/Gallagher/Herrion, those programs are not BU's program. *puts on air of superiority* BU is not in a position where it should be looking for moral victories or "almost" winning a championship. BU can contend for a championship every single year; some other programs, for a variety of reasons, can't - at least not at this time. Again, I understand why the NIT, CBI, etc. exist. They're nice excuses for players and coaches to play a few extra games. They're fun tournaments. But I would happily trade 10 CBI championships for one AE title.

And whether or not I assign value to the NIT/CBI/etc. is absolutely relevant to this debate. We're evaluating careers, aren't we? We're already assigning value to various accomplishments. It's the nature of the exercise. And there's no strictly way to assign value to Trimboli's achievements or Lowe's achievements or any other player's achievements. The entire process is inherently subjective. The value I assign to the NIT/CBI is irrelevant to you, and the value you assign to the NIT/CBI is irrelevant to me, except insofar as we're trying to have a discussion But I'm not about to tell you you're wrong for placing some degree of emphasis on those NIT/CBI appearances, because it's strictly a matter of opinion.

In re: FFTS and Lowe, Chambers obviously won't say anything about it. I don't hesitate to disagree with Sam when I think he's wrong, but in this case I know who he's talked to. This is not a case of Lowe spinning the story to Sam and Sam retelling it.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:45 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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I don't mean to disrupt this conversation, but I would just say this...I think the NIT has some merit and value, but the CBI, CIT and whatever other ridiculous tournament they come up with is just a bunch of crap in my opinion. Those tournaments just make it like the Bowls for college football where you get a bunch of mediocre, .500 teams playing in a meaningless event just to say they were in the "postseason".

The NCAA takes 68 teams, the NIT then takes 32, the CBI takes 16, the CIT takes 24 now...making 140 teams that play in postseason college hoops. That's just plain absurd. For what it's worth, teams that don't make the NCAA or any other event are allowed to still practice and work on getting better as a team so they aren't shut out of extra competition/time on the court.

Lastly, the TV contracts kind of bear this out, with the NCAA Tournament costing CBS $6.2 billion, NIT costing ESPN $24.1 million and well, I think the CBI & CIT actually have to pay a TV station to broadcast those games. I jest, but can't imagine Fox College Sports or HDNet are really paying very much at all for those regional at best games. At least the NIT doesn't seem to get referred to as the teams "Not In Tournament" as much anymore...or called the "Loser's Tournament".

Anyway, back to our originally scheduled broadcast...
Haha, I don't think this conversation is capable of being disrupted I'm just glad that things haven't devolved into a series of personal attacks - hopefully I'm a bit slower to fly off the handle than I was a few years ago
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:49 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by umainealum View Post
I don't mean to disrupt this conversation, but I would just say this...I think the NIT has some merit and value, but the CBI, CIT and whatever other ridiculous tournament they come up with is just a bunch of crap in my opinion. Those tournaments just make it like the Bowls for college football where you get a bunch of mediocre, .500 teams playing in a meaningless event just to say they were in the "postseason".

The NCAA takes 68 teams, the NIT then takes 32, the CBI takes 16, the CIT takes 24 now...making 140 teams that play in postseason college hoops. That's just plain absurd. For what it's worth, teams that don't make the NCAA or any other event are allowed to still practice and work on getting better as a team so they aren't shut out of extra competition/time on the court.

Lastly, the TV contracts kind of bear this out, with the NCAA Tournament costing CBS $6.2 billion, NIT costing ESPN $24.1 million and well, I think the CBI & CIT actually have to pay a TV station to broadcast those games. I jest, but can't imagine Fox College Sports or HDNet are really paying very much at all for those regional at best games. At least the NIT doesn't seem to get referred to as the teams "Not In Tournament" as much anymore...or called the "Loser's Tournament".

Anyway, back to our originally scheduled broadcast...

Yeah, I don't disagree with much of this. On a relative basis, it's pretty obvious that the goal is the NCAA Tournament, 2nd Goal NIT, and then CBI & CIT if you get an invite and choose to participate (some schools do decline, which is fine). That's the post-season hierarchy.

The purpose of the CBI and CIT isn't to be broadcast to the world, make a bunch of money, and "brag about winning two games in the CBI" as Air Holland said.

The value is getting your senior another game. Maybe getting your home fans another game. Getting your young players tournament experience- the biggest value IMO. UVM and BU both participated in the CBI, won games, and hey look the following seasons they went to the NCAA Tournament. They were able to build on the success they had in a tournament format and use it for the following season.

So it obviously has value- and the bulk of it isn't really for the fans- concerning the CBI & CIT. How much value is certainly debatable, but to discount these tournaments like they don't matter- to me is both wrong and doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:57 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Again, I understand why the NIT, CBI, etc. exist. They're nice excuses for players and coaches to play a few extra games. They're fun tournaments. But I would happily trade 10 CBI championships for one AE title.
I'm pretty certain everyone would- but the point isn't to discuss the value of each of these tournaments have when compared to each other. If one of these players had gone to the NCAA Tournament the discussion wouldn't exist- that would be game over. But since we only have all other post-season games to go from- that's the criteria one must use- or in your case, ignore
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:02 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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The value is getting your senior another game. Maybe getting your home fans another game. Getting your young players tournament experience- the biggest value IMO. UVM and BU both participated in the CBI, won games, and hey look the following seasons they went to the NCAA Tournament. They were able to build on the success they had in a tournament format and use it for the following season.

So it obviously has value- and the bulk of it isn't really for the fans- concerning the CBI & CIT. How much value is certainly debatable, but to discount these tournaments like they don't matter- to me is both wrong and doesn't make sense.
So, are you saying those teams made the NCAA Tournament the following year because of their CBI/CIT games? That's a pretty big leap.

And getting my senior another game? Really? Should there be another tournament after they lose in the CBI/CIT so they can get yet another game? Where does it end? If you weren't good enough to win your conference tourney or get an invite to the NIT, you're done...and means most likely you were the 3rd best team in your bad league (2nd, 3rd, 4th place teams in the top 10-12 leagues are getting invites to the NCAA or NIT)!! Sorry, but we don't need that many tournaments for post season play.

And tournament format? Don't we have a conference tournament? Some teams even play in tournaments during the regular season. I would say participating in either the NCAA or NIT gets you different types of experience because you have a great deal of media hype and attention, camera crews at practice, media sessions, etc...that doesn't happen even close to the same level in the CBI/CIT. I think that's overblown with those 2 events.

As a sidenote, I wonder how much it cost each team to play? I feel pretty safe in saying very few of the costs were probably covered for them, especially the ones that had to travel. That could affect the "value" to the school.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:14 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Yeah, I don't disagree with much of this. On a relative basis, it's pretty obvious that the goal is the NCAA Tournament, 2nd Goal NIT, and then CBI & CIT if you get an invite and choose to participate (some schools do decline, which is fine). That's the post-season hierarchy.

The purpose of the CBI and CIT isn't to be broadcast to the world, make a bunch of money, and "brag about winning two games in the CBI" as Air Holland said.

The value is getting your senior another game. Maybe getting your home fans another game. Getting your young players tournament experience- the biggest value IMO. UVM and BU both participated in the CBI, won games, and hey look the following seasons they went to the NCAA Tournament. They were able to build on the success they had in a tournament format and use it for the following season.

So it obviously has value- and the bulk of it isn't really for the fans- concerning the CBI & CIT. How much value is certainly debatable, but to discount these tournaments like they don't matter- to me is both wrong and doesn't make sense.
But see, this is the thing I think is getting lost.

I'm not saying these tournaments mean nothing to the program or the players. When BU went to the CBI I wasn't excited, but I wouldn't say, "don't go to the CBI, it's stupid." The seniors got one last chance to play together (which became two, which became three), the fans got to see another home game. It has a purpose.

But as far as what I care about as a fan? When I look at what a player accomplished in his career, the CBI is so far down on the list as to be irrelevant. It might be a useful stepping stone on the way to something greater, but making the CBI holds no real meaning for me. It's a consolation prize. I'm sure it's nice for the players, but we're not players. We're two guys arguing on a message board about whether playing in the CBI counts as a meaningful accomplishment when evaluating a player's career.

I'm not sure why you seem to think it's a problem that my criteria for "what did you accomplish during your career" don't place any weight on "did you get to play in this tournament after failing to qualify for the tournament you were actually trying to qualify for". It's not wrong. It's not right either. Right and wrong have no bearing on this discussion.

As an aside, I'd question the idea that playing in the CBI somehow helped BU win the AE the next year. Here's the list of players who played in the CBI in 2010 and then the AE tournament in 2011: John Holland, Jeff Pelage. That's the whole list. Jeff Pelage was a complete non-factor in the 2011 tournament, and until the second half of the final John Holland had as quiet an AE tournament as any POY in recent memory. I haven't asked Holland this question, but something tells me that if you asked him what factored into BU winning the title in 2011 he wouldn't bring up the CBI unless you already mentioned it.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:48 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Bob thanks for adding nothing per usual. The NCAA is more important than the other tournaments? Gee, what a brilliant revelation Bob.

Neither player made it to the NCAA's

The post-season is the conference tournament, NCAA/NIT/CBI/CIT. Since neither got to the NCAA's, the NIT and CBI is all we got.

Even if someone wants to only use conference tournament, Trimboli got his team to 2 conference finals (when it was more "his team")where Lowe got his team to 1.

2 > 1

Win.

Not my problem you don't get it. I don't have the time to be on here that others do.
Air Holland already made similar points that I did.
To me if you don't make the ncaa, it is irrelevant if you go to the NIT or not. The CBI give me a break.
Trimboli was not the only reason that UVM made the finals. To say 1 player is better than another just because his team got to the finals is absurd. It is a team game and Lowe carried his team as far as it went.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am closer to agreement with Air Holland's points than yours on just about every point on this argument.
I too would not hang NIT banners if I had the choice.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:22 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat View Post
Yeah, I don't disagree with much of this. On a relative basis, it's pretty obvious that the goal is the NCAA Tournament, 2nd Goal NIT, and then CBI & CIT if you get an invite and choose to participate (some schools do decline, which is fine). That's the post-season hierarchy. The purpose of the CBI and CIT isn't to be broadcast to the world, make a bunch of money, and "brag about winning two games in the CBI" as Air Holland said.

The value is getting your senior another game. Maybe getting your home fans another game. Getting your young players tournament experience- the biggest value IMO. UVM and BU both participated in the CBI, won games, and hey look the following seasons they went to the NCAA Tournament. They were able to build on the success they had in a tournament format and use it for the following season.

So it obviously has value- and the bulk of it isn't really for the fans- concerning the CBI & CIT. How much value is certainly debatable, but to discount these tournaments like they don't matter- to me is both wrong and doesn't make sense.
Sure, they give some teams who don't reach their goal another tournament to play in, but that doesn't mean that is a goal.
The goal is to get to the NCAA. There is no 2nd goal in my opinion. Do you think in the year Trimboli knew his team was going to the NIT he cried any less when his team lost in the AE.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:27 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by Air Holland View Post

In re: Woodward/Monroe/Gallagher/Herrion, those programs are not BU's program. *puts on air of superiority* BU is not in a position where it should be looking for moral victories or "almost" winning a championship.
And this right here gets back and proves my point. Whether *you* as one individual fan feels the NIT/CBI/CIT has value or not doesn't matter- because as you've clearly noted, it's your own (misguided) bias because guess what- BU did participate in the CBI because it does see value in it by fact of their accepting the invite to participate. If they did not feel it added value to their basketball team, they would have not participated in it.

So the BU athletic department does not believe it's "above" the CBI.
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Last edited by UVM Hoop Cat; 10-24-2011 at 11:32 AM.
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