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Old 10-24-2011, 10:37 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by umainealum View Post
So, are you saying those teams made the NCAA Tournament the following year because of their CBI/CIT games? That's a pretty big leap.

And getting my senior another game? Really? Should there be another tournament after they lose in the CBI/CIT so they can get yet another game? Where does it end? If you weren't good enough to win your conference tourney or get an invite to the NIT, you're done...and means most likely you were the 3rd best team in your bad league (2nd, 3rd, 4th place teams in the top 10-12 leagues are getting invites to the NCAA or NIT)!! Sorry, but we don't need that many tournaments for post season play.

And tournament format? Don't we have a conference tournament? Some teams even play in tournaments during the regular season. I would say participating in either the NCAA or NIT gets you different types of experience because you have a great deal of media hype and attention, camera crews at practice, media sessions, etc...that doesn't happen even close to the same level in the CBI/CIT. I think that's overblown with those 2 events.

As a sidenote, I wonder how much it cost each team to play? I feel pretty safe in saying very few of the costs were probably covered for them, especially the ones that had to travel. That could affect the "value" to the school.
No, of course that's not the sole reason why.

But do I think it's a contributing factor- of course. If someone doesn't think beating Morehead State or Milwaukee-Wisonsin in a win-or-go home situation helps both coaching staff and returning players with experience, confidence, chemistry for the following season then I think that raises questions about their understanding of team-building and sport.


Those are all good, valid points. I think the ultimate goal is a conference championship but if a good team falls short- they don't end the season on a down note and have an alternate tournament to play in if they get invited.

My response to you is, if there wasn't value and interest in the CBI/CIT...then there would be no demand...and thus they would cease to exist. Since both CBI and CIT were created- what 4 or 5 seasons ago- they are both still around and I believe they have also both grown. Organizers still wouldn't be running these things if they didn't gain some legitimacy and traction. If every school declined- they would cease to function. Just look at some of the teams that have participated recently- real top-tier programs. VCU comes to mind.

Are they as good and legitimate as the NCAA and NIT? Of course not. Do they have value- clearly, because enough tournament organizers, coaches, players, sponsors, administrators, and fans think so.

This has been a great discussion, IMO.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:43 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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In re: FFTS and Lowe, Chambers obviously won't say anything about it. I don't hesitate to disagree with Sam when I think he's wrong, but in this case I know who he's talked to. This is not a case of Lowe spinning the story to Sam and Sam retelling it.
Like I said, unless I can get Lowe, Chambers, and BU's AD to confirm this as fact I would never believe it because it's simply too unbelievable and outside the realm of feasibility.

Chambers would simply have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to risk if it could be confirmed that he booted Lowe- BU's 3rd all-time leading scorer who gave it all he had in the AE tourney- off the team for no other reason than he was injured and he didn't like him.

Saying, "trust me, I know because I talk to people" (which may or may not be the right people) isn't going to work in this scenario.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:50 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Like I said, unless I can get Lowe, Chambers, and BU's AD to confirm this as fact I would never believe it because it's simply too unbelievable and outside the realm of feasibility.

Chambers would simply have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to risk if it could be confirmed that he booted Lowe- BU's 3rd all-time leading scorer who gave it all he had in the AE tourney- off the team for no other reason than he was injured and he didn't like him.

Saying, "trust me, I know because I talk to people" (which may or may not be the right people) isn't going to work in this scenario.
Funny...the "trust me because I talk to people" seemed to work for you and BurlingtonBob all summer...just saying.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:08 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

No dog in this fight but I love this shot:

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Originally Posted by bob87 View Post
Do you think in the year Trimboli knew his team was going to the NIT he cried any less when his team lost in the AE.
Also if this is a reference to Baghdad Bob, I love it too:

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Originally Posted by bosiydid View Post
Funny...the "trust me because I talk to people" seemed to work for you and BurlingtonBob all summer...just saying.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:11 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Funny...the "trust me because I talk to people" seemed to work for you and BurlingtonBob all summer...just saying.
Nobody is forcing you to believe anyone. It comes don't to I trust/believe what I know more than I trust/believe what you know.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:19 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Do you think in the year Trimboli knew his team was going to the NIT he cried any less when his team lost in the AE.
What's your obsession with Trimboli and crying after defeat? It's pretty sad on your end.

Do you think Will Brown cried more after he had a 7 win season or after not getting the Dartmouth job?

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Old 10-24-2011, 11:34 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Like I said, unless I can get Lowe, Chambers, and BU's AD to confirm this as fact I would never believe it because it's simply too unbelievable and outside the realm of feasibility.
Except it's not... Chambers and Lowe butted heads for much of the season - there was mutual distrust going both ways. What is fact is that Chambers went on record saying that Lowe left the team - that it was his decision.

What is also fact - which those close to the situation knew and later trickled out to those poking around the situation - is that Chambers statement was false: Lowe did not quit the team - he was booted by Chambers. Everyone remotely close to the situation has agreed on this. I'm really not sure what is so unfeasible about this. He met with an agent, it was a questionable situation. No rules were violated but it was a bit of a grey area and one Chambers didn't want to deal with in his first season at BU for a player who would not be able to play the rest of the season (which was either 1 or 2 remaining games in the CBI - a tourney that didn't matter) and whose career was over either way. However, if Lowe was capable of playing those final two games, he most likely does not get booted from the team... End of the day, Lowe wasn't Chambers guy, there was a decent amount of friction, and Chambers wasn't going to face any headache for a player who's career on the court at BU was over.

Yeesh, its amazing what you know is and isn't possible despite not talking with anyone remotely connected to the situation, or doing any digging at all. Stuff like this happens plenty and I don't see why this isn't feasible: Lowe's career was over, Chambers removed him from the end of the bench for the final two games. It was Chambers first season, he'd just been brought in by BU at a huge financial cost (considering the buyout for Wolff) and he was the first new coach for the program in 14 years. He had some power, and when he goes to an AD and says "I can't have this guy on my bench for the final two games, he met with an agent, I don't want to deal with anything that might come with it," the stance of any AD is basically, "you're my guy, and I trust you on this one."
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:39 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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And this right here gets back and proves my point. Whether *you* as an individual fan feel the NIT/CBI/CIT has value or not- because as you've clearly noted, it's your own (misguided) bias because guess what- BU did participate in the CBI because it does see value in it by fact of their accepting the invite to participate. If they did not feel it added value to their basketball team, they would have not participated in it.

So the BU athletic department does not believe it's "above" the CBI.
When did I ever say, or even imply that the BU athletic department believes it's "above" the CBI? There's no reason not to play in it. It has value for the players - it lets them keep playing in a game atmosphere. It's a fun tournament. But as a fan - and let's make no mistake, I am a fan, not a player, not a coach, not an athletic director - those games mean absolutely nothing to me. Might as well be an exhibition game.

To some greater or lesser degree, there's value (or should be value) in everything players do as part of the program. Practice has value - for the players. Strength and conditioning has value - for the players. If Corey Lowe practiced harder than any other player in the history of basketball - and even if that was a universally accepted fact - I'm not going to point to the fact that practice had value for Corey Lowe when evaluating his career. Now, the CBI isn't the same thing as a practice, but unless you're going to argue that playing in the tournament is an accomplishment deserving of weight (which you can, but since that's entirely opinion, your opinion cannot invalidate mine), then why do I care? If it helps you build toward next season, great, fantastic, but again, I don't care how you get there, I only care about getting there (at least in the context of evaluating a career).

Again, for the umpteenth time, participation in the CBI does not automatically imply that said participation is a noteworthy accomplishment, and value from a player's perspective does not have to equate to value from my perspective. The fact that what I consider to be important doesn't exactly match up with what the player or the coach or the athletic department considers to be important doesn't invalidate my perspective, it just means my perspective is different from theirs, just like my perspective is different from yours. Different isn't wrong. It's just different.

Or, to state it differently, valuation is (in this case) inherently subjective and therefore neither right nor wrong.

In re: Chambers/Lowe, it's not that Chambers booted Lowe solely because he didn't like him. If the whole Lowe/agent thing never happened, Lowe wouldn't have been booted off the team because there wouldn't have been an excuse... but there was an excuse. I don't really see a problem with that for Chambers - the problem I have is with the way the situation was handled. Saying that Lowe chose to leave the team, refusing to elaborate on that point, and allowing the not-so-subtle allegation that Lowe was basically quitting on his teammates to linger in the air was, IMHO, a really crappy thing to do.

I mean, honestly... if Chambers said, "Corey Lowe had contact with an agent. We're not upset with Corey and we don't think he meant for things to happen this way, but because this may raise questions about Corey's eligibility going forward we are electing not to play him for the remainder of the CBI," that would have been a million, billion times better for Corey and presents no additional downside for Chambers. Instead we were given no details beyond boilerplate PR, which is about as good a way to encourage rumors as I can think of.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:43 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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What is also fact - which those close to the situation knew and later trickled out to those poking around the situation - is that Chambers statement was false: Lowe did not quit the team - he was booted by Chambers. Everyone remotely close to the situation has agreed on this. I'm really not sure what is so unfeasible about this. He met with an agent, it was a questionable situation. No rules were violated but it was a bit of a grey area and one Chambers didn't want to deal with in his first season at BU for a player who would not be able to play the rest of the season (which was either 1 or 2 remaining games in the CBI - a tourney that didn't matter) and whose career was over either way. However, if Lowe was capable of playing those final two games, he most likely does not get booted from the team... End of the day, Lowe wasn't Chambers guy, there was a decent amount of friction, and Chambers wasn't going to face any headache for a player who's career on the court at BU was over.
Right...so this gets back to what I was saying. No questionable meeting with agent, no reason for dismissal of Lowe. My original point stands- That's on Lowe. If Lowe knows Chambers doesn't like him and wants him out- all the more reason to not meet/talk with an agent to give him cause to boot you. Unless...Lowe simply no longer cared. If he didn't know it was a grey area to meet/talk with an agent while he's still playing, again his fault.

You said earlier in this thread it was because he was injured and Chambers just didn't want him anymore.

Extremely huge difference.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:44 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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In re: Chambers/Lowe, it's not that Chambers booted Lowe solely because he didn't like him. If the whole Lowe/agent thing never happened, Lowe wouldn't have been booted off the team because there wouldn't have been an excuse... but there was an excuse. I don't really see a problem with that for Chambers - the problem I have is with the way the situation was handled. Saying that Lowe chose to leave the team, refusing to elaborate on that point, and allowing the not-so-subtle allegation that Lowe was basically quitting on his teammates to linger in the air was, IMHO, a really crappy thing to do.

I mean, honestly... if Chambers said, "Corey Lowe had contact with an agent. We're not upset with Corey and we don't think he meant for things to happen this way, but because this may raise questions about Corey's eligibility going forward we are electing not to play him for the remainder of the CBI," that would have been a million, billion times better for Corey and presents no additional downside for Chambers. Instead we were given no details beyond boilerplate PR, which is about as good a way to encourage rumors as I can think of.
Ding ding ding, we have a freaking winner here. Exactly as AH said, if Lowe doesn't meet with the agent, Chambers doesn't have cause to boot Lowe. But since he did, and he was a player Chambers already was at odds with, it gave him a reason to get rid of him. On the flip side, his meeting didn't actually violate any NCAA rules, and if he was still able to play - and still absolutely lighting it up from behind the arc - he doesn't get booted.

His meeting with the agent was a grey area, but it was enough to be able to boot him without any problems... And the real problem was in the handling of the situation: In giving false information and misleading quotes to imply that the decision was Corey's, when in fact it was Chambers... it was disingenuous and simply false.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:49 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Ding ding ding, we have a freaking winner here. Exactly as AH said, if Lowe doesn't meet with the agent, Chambers doesn't have cause to boot Lowe. But since he did, and he was a player Chambers already was at odds with, it gave him a reason to get rid of him. On the flip side, his meeting didn't actually violate any NCAA rules, and if he was still able to play - and still absolutely lighting it up from behind the arc - he doesn't get booted.

His meeting with the agent was a grey area, but it was enough to be able to boot him without any problems... And the real problem was in the handling of the situation: In giving false information and misleading quotes to imply that the decision was Corey's, when in fact it was Chambers... it was disingenuous and simply false.
See- The real problem to me isn't how Chambers handled it-which may or may not have been right- it's that Lowe met with an agent while his team is still playing in a tournament and their season is still going.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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See- The real problem to me isn't how Chambers handled it-which may or may not have been right- it's that Lowe met with an agent while his team is still playing in a tournament and their season is still going.
Alright, I'm going to put something out there on the table that hasn't been out there before: Lowe was NOT the only Terrier to meet with the agent. It wasn't a 1 on 1, it was a bunch of them watching an NCAA tournament game on TV socially... Lowe was the only kid booted from the team. There, that is handling it wrong and that is in direct contradiction to your above break down of the situation.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:54 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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When did I ever say, or even imply that the BU athletic department believes it's "above" the CBI? There's no reason not to play in it. It has value for the players - it lets them keep playing in a game atmosphere. It's a fun tournament. But as a fan - and let's make no mistake, I am a fan, not a player, not a coach, not an athletic director - those games mean absolutely nothing to me. Might as well be an exhibition game.
Can't be an exhibition game because it counts as an official game in team records

Again, just because you don't like it and choose to ignore the meaning of these other tournaments doesn't matter.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:00 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Alright, I'm going to put something out there on the table that hasn't been out there before: Lowe was NOT the only Terrier to meet with the agent. It wasn't a 1 on 1, it was a bunch of them watching an NCAA tournament game on TV socially... Lowe was the only kid booted from the team. There, that is handling it wrong and that is in direct contradiction to your above break down of the situation.
And my obvious response to this information is that Lowe and another player(s) were dumb- even worse. Two wrongs don't make one right.

How do you not see how the player(s) have responsibility here?

No players should be hanging out with agents during the season.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:05 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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And my obvious response to this information is that Lowe and another player(s) were dumb- even worse. Two wrongs don't make one right.

How do you not see how the player(s) have responsibility here?

No players should be hanging out with agents during the season.
My biggest argument going way back to your original point was not that Lowe didn't make a dumb decision (it was a REALLY stupid decision - but not one that violated any NCAA rules) it was that Lowe did not make a conscious decision to leave the team - which you implied very strongly - that he did not leave the team... And, it's also to say that when you boil it down, what finally cost him his spot on the Terriers roster was that he was injured and could no longer help the team on the court. Once there was no longer use for him on the court, he was jettisoned once there was enough cause... yet his teammates, who were just as guilty as he, were allowed to remain on the team because they could still contribute on the court.
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