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Old 10-24-2011, 12:06 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Originally Posted by UVM Hoop Cat View Post
Can't be an exhibition game because it counts as an official game in team records

Again, just because you don't like it and choose to ignore the meaning of these other tournaments doesn't matter.
And the fact that you choose to ascribe meaning to these lesser tournaments means nothing to me. So? That's my point.

I place no weight on UVM's CBI appearance. This would be "wrong" if I then placed weight on BU's CBI appearance, because my valuation would be inconsistent - but I'm not being inconsistent. Far from it. Everything about my system of valuation is both internally consistent and consistent with my previous statements.

I find it curious that you continue to approach this with the mindset that the validity of my perspective is in some way dependent on whether or not it lines up with someone else's.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:20 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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And the fact that you choose to ascribe meaning to these lesser tournaments means nothing to me. So? That's my point.

I place no weight on UVM's CBI appearance. This would be "wrong" if I then placed weight on BU's CBI appearance, because my valuation would be inconsistent - but I'm not being inconsistent. Far from it. Everything about my system of valuation is both internally consistent and consistent with my previous statements.

I find it curious that you continue to approach this with the mindset that the validity of my perspective is in some way dependent on whether or not it lines up with someone else's.

We're trying to compare what two players have done in the post-season...but....you..continue to....exclude... relevant post season tournaments. Just because you don't like them- which is frustratingly childish

And even if we were to say it's only the AE tournament- which doesn't make sense to me at all- I still believe Trimboli accomplished more by virtue of the simple fact his teams got farther in the AE Tournament more times than Lowe's teams did.

So..I guess that's pretty much it.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:27 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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My biggest argument going way back to your original point was not that Lowe didn't make a dumb decision (it was a REALLY stupid decision - but not one that violated any NCAA rules) it was that Lowe did not make a conscious decision to leave the team - which you implied very strongly - that he did not leave the team... And, it's also to say that when you boil it down, what finally cost him his spot on the Terriers roster was that he was injured and could no longer help the team on the court. Once there was no longer use for him on the court, he was jettisoned once there was enough cause... yet his teammates, who were just as guilty as he, were allowed to remain on the team because they could still contribute on the court.
I think you misread what I wrote. I said he bailed on his teammates- I didn't say he quit or just up and left the team.

If Lowe- and others- put themselves into situations that were their choosing- or dumb decisions that they didn't know about but should have- it's their fault and shows no consideration for their teammates. How BU chooses to discipline isn't the issue here. If they didn't kick off other guilty parties- well that's unfortunate for BU and casts them in a negative light. That's a whole other can or worms.

And further-everyone knows what went into the press, so right or wrong, Joe Schmo BU fan or Joe Schmo AE fan is going to think Lowe bailed on his teammates and that's his legacy.
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:33 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

I'm just going to throw out there that I loved the CBI game that BU hosted. It was fun, and a great win.

As a fan, it was a good feeling to win an exciting game against a solid team, regardless of the prestige of the tournament.

As for the Lowe thing, in retrospect, I have the following opinions:
  1. Lowe (and anyone else) being anywhere near an agent was a stupid thing to do
  2. Chambers doesn't do what he says, so why should we believe anything he said about any situation, including this
  3. I have ZERO faith in the BU Athletic Department to do things which make sense, or to act in the best interst of its student athletes and the University

All of that adds up to a sad situation.

Finally, thanks to the OBW guys for putting that preview together...lots of good stuff (much with which I agree), and thorough as always!
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:24 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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I think you misread what I wrote. I said he bailed on his teammates- I didn't say he quit or just up and left the team.

If Lowe- and others- put themselves into situations that were their choosing- or dumb decisions that they didn't know about but should have- it's their fault and shows no consideration for their teammates. How BU chooses to discipline isn't the issue here. If they didn't kick off other guilty parties- well that's unfortunate for BU and casts them in a negative light. That's a whole other can or worms.

And further-everyone knows what went into the press, so right or wrong, Joe Schmo BU fan or Joe Schmo AE fan is going to think Lowe bailed on his teammates and that's his legacy.
How this is construed as Lowe bailing on his teammates continues to escape me. Go find the rule Lowe broke. I'll save you the trouble - he didn't break any rule. From Bylaw 12.3:

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It is not a violation of NCAA rules if a student-athlete merely talks to an agent (as long as an agreement for agent representation is not established).
Informal player/agent contact with no benefits granted to the player is not a violation. Is the fact that he was even in that situation stupid? Yes. Were Lowe's actions themselves a big deal? No, obviously not, because other players did the same thing and didn't get kicked off the team. Nobody was "guilty" of anything except poor judgment.

That being said, if Chambers decided he couldn't trust his own players' account of what had happened (which would have been silly - how do you think he found out about the agent contact in the first place?), he would have been perfectly justified in erring on the side of caution and suspending/dismissing all of the involved parties. He could have benched all of the involved players for the start of the next game under the pretext of giving some of his other players "an experience they'll remember for the rest of their lives," which is a phrase Chambers used so many times it's burned into my brain by now. He had any number of options, some better than other, all of which were fair except for the one option that was chosen.

Interesting that you'd cite the presence of known misinformation in your last sentence, as if misinformed people concluding that Lowe bailed on his teammates implies that he did.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:17 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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How this is construed as Lowe bailing on his teammates continues to escape me. Go find the rule Lowe broke. I'll save you the trouble - he didn't break any rule. From Bylaw 12.3:



Informal player/agent contact with no benefits granted to the player is not a violation. Is the fact that he was even in that situation stupid? Yes. Were Lowe's actions themselves a big deal? No, obviously not, because other players did the same thing and didn't get kicked off the team. Nobody was "guilty" of anything except poor judgment.

That being said, if Chambers decided he couldn't trust his own players' account of what had happened (which would have been silly - how do you think he found out about the agent contact in the first place?), he would have been perfectly justified in erring on the side of caution and suspending/dismissing all of the involved parties. He could have benched all of the involved players for the start of the next game under the pretext of giving some of his other players "an experience they'll remember for the rest of their lives," which is a phrase Chambers used so many times it's burned into my brain by now. He had any number of options, some better than other, all of which were fair except for the one option that was chosen.

Interesting that you'd cite the presence of known misinformation in your last sentence, as if misinformed people concluding that Lowe bailed on his teammates implies that he did.
I've never said Lowe broke NCAA rules. For all anyone knows, maybe he broke a team rule. As Seth said, it's not smart to hang out with agents during the season and for good/obvious reason I'm sure coaches advise against it.

If Lowe (and others) had consideration for their teammates, the team, and its potential effects they wouldn't have hung out with an agent- period. If Lowe was in Chamber's dog house then it's simply a risk not worth taking- why give someone the ammunition?. Don't give your coach (who doesn't like you apparently) a reason to boot you. That doesn't absolve any other players from the same treatment and my feelings on this.

How Chambers chooses to discipline the said players is a different issue altogether. Is it Chambers fault that Lowe and others hung out with agents? Absolutely not. Could he have looked the other way for all players including Lowe? Sure he could, but if this is all correct then he didn't- so I still fail to see how it's anyone's fault but the players here. If he needed to make an example of someone- then maybe that someone had to be Lowe- which again, that's still Lowe's fault.

I prefaced my last sentence as saying "right or wrong"- that's the perception people (casual observers, not Lowe super fans) now have of Lowe.

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/...leaves_bu.html

It doesn't look like much effort's been put in on anyone's part to get the "right" information out there (if that is of course not it)
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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How Chambers chooses to discipline the said players is a different issue altogether. Is it Chambers fault that Lowe and others hung out with agents? Absolutely not. Could he have looked the other way for all players including Lowe? Sure he could, but if this is correct he didn't- but I still fail to see how it's anyone's fault but the players here. If he needed to make an example of someone- then maybe that someone had to be Lowe- which again, still Lowe's fault
I don't think anyone has a problem with Chambers kicking Lowe off the team (well, maybe Lowe does/did, but that's neither here nor there). The problem is with the unequal application of punishment and the subsequent cover-up (and yes, telling reporters that Lowe quit the team of his own accord when he did nothing of the sort is a cover-up).

The Globe story you linked has one source: Chambers.

I know we don't see eye-to-eye in re: Lowe. Let's just drop it.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:18 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

Trimboli would never bail on his team.

NIT is def worth something just like the AE regular season title is worth something. They both are important. every reg season game is important cuz it effects your seeding if you do make it to a post season tournament.

aslo as a UVM fan i could say that making the ncaa tournament isnt a big deal. Winning a game there is. UVM's main goal every year is to win a ncaa game. who cares about secondary goals................ but there is secondary goals that are nice to have.

without a doubt winning the NIT would be a far bigger accomplishment than making the ncaa tournament. NO one here can say different. Beating all the teams in the AE or beating all the teams in the NIT.......... hmmmm. i think i would know what i would choose.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:29 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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What's your obsession with Trimboli and crying after defeat? It's pretty sad on your end.

Do you think Will Brown cried more after he had a 7 win season or after not getting the Dartmouth job?

What is with you and the inability to use common sense. I made my point loud and clear which games meant what to Trimboli from observation. Sorry if you don't get that. Obviously I am not a Vermont fan, but I understand why he cried after those AE tournament games. The goal he (and his team) worked so hard for all season was over. I would think all players who think their team has a shot to make the tournament are disappointed even though most of then don't cry on the court like Trimboli.

Not sure what your obsession with Will Brown has to do with the topic at hand. Would you rather have Trimbioli or Lowe or even the sub topic. How much weight should you assign to the NIT or CBI. I would say ZERO.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:31 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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The Globe story you linked has one source: Chambers.

I know we don't see eye-to-eye in re: Lowe. Let's just drop it.
Agreed. One thing I think we can both agree on is the final situation sucks for all parties.

Maybe with Chambers out of the picture so quickly, if those events aren't accurate, then maybe Lowe should try to get his name cleared. If I were Lowe, I wouldn't want to be remembered in that light- especially as the third-leading scorer at BU- but maybe he just doesn't care/it's not that important.

But yes, this has been exhausted.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:39 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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What is with you and the inability to use common sense. I made my point loud and clear which games meant what to Trimboli from observation. Sorry if you don't get that. Obviously I am not a Vermont fan, but I understand why he cried after those AE tournament games. The goal he (and his team) worked so hard for all season was over. I would think all players who think their team has a shot to make the tournament are disappointed even though most of then don't cry on the court like Trimboli.

Not sure what your obsession with Will Brown has to do with the topic at hand. Would you rather have Trimbioli or Lowe or even the sub topic. How much weight should you assign to the NIT or CBI. I would say ZERO.
Bob, you clearly have no idea what this discussion has been about and since you can't follow along just keep out of it. Seriously.

If you think that all these posts have been to compare the ultimate goal of the NCAA Tournament to the 3 lesser post-season tournaments then you have even bigger problems than the obvious ones.

As far as you keep bringing up Trimboli crying- Show some class and act like you've been there before. Maybe Will Harris and Tim Ambrose didn't cry because it didn't mean anything to them and they didn't care and were happy to be done when they were bounced out of the AE tournament. Trimboli played as hard as he could and put it all out there- more than I can say for a lot of players to come through this league.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:04 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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Bob, you clearly have no idea what this discussion has been about and since you can't follow along just keep out of it. Seriously.

If you think that all these posts have been to compare the ultimate goal of the NCAA Tournament to the 3 lesser post-season tournaments then you have even bigger problems than the obvious ones.

As far as you keep bringing up Trimboli crying- Show some class and act like you've been there before. Maybe Will Harris and Tim Ambrose didn't cry because it didn't mean anything to them and they didn't care and were happy to be done when they were bounced out of the AE tournament. Trimboli played as hard as he could and put it all out there- more than I can say for a lot of players to come through this league.

LOL
I can always follow your stupidity. If it is important enough to me I'll say something. When you go on and on about what you think or believe happened, I don't say anything as frankly I don't care what you believe. I also don't care what weight you assign to the CBI. It is only when you say over and over that others have to assign weight to it do I say something. Also when you say X>Y as a fact when there is opinion involved I'll say something.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:14 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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We're trying to compare what two players have done in the post-season...but....you..continue to....exclude... relevant post season tournaments. Just because you don't like them- which is frustratingly childish

And even if we were to say it's only the AE tournament- which doesn't make sense to me at all- I still believe Trimboli accomplished more by virtue of the simple fact his teams got farther in the AE Tournament more times than Lowe's teams did.

So..I guess that's pretty much it.
Again, I am not the only one here who finds the CBI irrelevant.
But hey the last useless post by you says I can't follow


You second paragraph is just as stupid this time you said it as it was the first time you said it. I commented on before and I'll comment again. With this sentence, you are assuming all 4 other starters on BU performed at the same level as the 4 other starters on UVM. (to say nothing as to the performance of the bench) It is an absurd piece of logic even for someone like you.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:34 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

NIT is a better tournament than the AE Conference one. sure winning the AE conference tournament is better than losing in the first round of the NIT but thats about the only thing thats better. I'm not sure how many games you would have to win in the NIT for it to better than losing first round of the ncaa's. Winning two games in the NIT is prolly a better accomplishment than winning the AE conference tourney. i agree that the CBI,CIT are a JOKE, but CBI is better than no tourney at all everyday of the week.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:07 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Re: OBW Catch-All Thread

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NIT is a better tournament than the AE Conference one. sure winning the AE conference tournament is better than losing in the first round of the NIT but thats about the only thing thats better. I'm not sure how many games you would have to win in the NIT for it to better than losing first round of the ncaa's. Winning two games in the NIT is prolly a better accomplishment than winning the AE conference tourney. i agree that the CBI,CIT are a JOKE, but CBI is better than no tourney at all everyday of the week.
The NIT and AE Conference tourney aren't even comparable. Not sure why you'd think it's necessary to even make a statement like that.

But not one team in the country would rather win two NIT games in favor of going to the NCAA tournament and losing in Round 1. Not one. It's called the "Big Dance" for a reason.
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