Who's going where? More fallout expected! - Page 4 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

ecasadoSBU · 06-26-2012, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane96

Yeah...so he can go check it. If I had his e-mail, I would have sent him an e-mail. Both he and I owe you no explanation. This is a common message board practice.

Now go mind your P's and Q's.

Why so rough? I didn't ask him an explanation, I asked you....

I don't see any need to make it public that you are sending a PM when its visible in the right hand side...

mainejeff · 06-26-2012, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNHFan

Jeff I think you make some good points but I would not worry about UNH leaving for the Patriot League that is not going to happen. It really does appear now that SBU will be staying in the Aeast and most likely joining the CAA for football only which is a great move for their football team. You keep the Brook and you add 2 schools you now have ten schools and some stability in the conference. I like it and want to see it happen sooner than later. Is there any idea when we would hear about schools being invited and joining the Aeast? Would this be an after July 1st thing?

July 4th (or right after) is supposed to be the timeframe for CAA decisions........but I read yesterday that it could be Christmas! If the CAA doesn't get it done in the next couple of weeks........I would expect full scale panic among CAA members and fans.

The Patriot SHOULD UNH's "red button" plan if AE falls apart. Everyone should have a Plan B. Not sure the Patriot would accept them.......especially if there are better options (W&M? Fairfield?)

mainejeff · 06-26-2012, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecasadoSBU

Why so rough? I didn't ask him an explanation, I asked you....

I don't see any need to make it public that you are sending a PM when its visible in the right hand side...

I'm not taking sides, but I've had PMs for days before I realize that they are there.

Aceinthehole · 06-26-2012, 06:30 AM

Big difference - Albany was never in the NEC for all sports. UA's football affiliate status does not mean that the NEC would automatically extend that option to Bryant/CCSU/Monmouth if they left for the AE.

There is no precedent - affiliate agreements are independent contracts that the league membership must vote on and renew, so there are no guarantees. I can assure you this, if QU leaves the NEC, I'm pretty certain the NEC Presidents would not approve affiliate status in ANY sport, unless it was needed to keep an AQ.

Quote:

And while he talks of UNH's commitment to America East and the CAA, Scarano notes that the conference shuffling has led to an “every school for itself” mentality that he and others find quite unsettling and leaves them unsure if a specific school will suddenly leave for another conference.

“I guess you have to look at it this way,” Scarano said. “No one knows what anyone is doing any longer. While we're all collegial, I don't think anyone can trust anyone. I hate to put it in crass terms, but everyone has to look out for themselves and do what's best for their institution ... I don't know that anybody feels good about that. We all want to have integrity, but it's hard to have that if it's going to put your institution in jeopardy.”

After reading those quote from the UNH AD is it really that hard to think that QU is not interested in the AE's overtures? My guess would be that Bryant and others likely feel the same.

After reading Fiore's quote, I had hope the league had a long term plan. But after the reading quotes from BU and UNH, the stability of the AE is much more of a problem than we on this board realize. The only league more unstable than America East right now is the Big East.

Dane96 · 06-26-2012, 06:38 AM

Jeff.

BOOM BOOM...on two points. The above one is obvious. I rarely see the "PM's" on any message board.

Back to the second and more important BOOM. Jeff went "Boom goes dynamite" on this topic of expansion.

Here's the deal folks. Aside from us--the fans, schools and the athletes--their is significant marginalization at our level of athletics. It's a fact we need to all embrace right now. Sure, there is some exposure...but generally speaking...the CAA and WCC are about the lowest level that anyone gives a toot about nationally...and that is relatively new (15 years or so for the WCC and last 8 or so for the CAA).

There will be a massive shift soon to super conferences and I am afraid we will see a completely different landscape of college football for one thing. This +4 system effectively destroys every "mid-major" FBS football conference. THEY HAVE NO SHOT...REPEAT...NO LEGITIMATE SHOT...at competing for National Titles under this system. Wait until the schools look at their bottom line at the mid-major FBS football level and realize they have a miniscule ROI. Two things will happen: Congress will get involved using their tools at hand, or you will see another level of football created.

As for hoops this will have a conference trickle down effect as the Big East as we know it will go bye-bye...and mark-it...the hoops schools will make the break when the well dries up from the +4 format and its effect on BE football.

So...short point: CHANGES ARE LOOMING...and this is just the appetizer course. At this level, you sit and hang tight for the big changes. As a good guy in development at UA said a long-bit ago: why incur all these costs when we will eventually be in a similar league in the sense of "one-bid" status.

Stony Brook--if Fiore really has his hat on--will do exactly what Jeff says. Sit tight in the AE and become the new "Delaware" while UA and maybe two others fight it out for the new "BU" slot. Fiore puts football in the CAA acheiving two goals: 1) Reducing costs; and 2) recruitment of better athletes and FBS payouts to make a potential transition in 5 years to whatever shakes out.

It's a win-win. SBU will be banging at the top of every league battle for a championship from here on out and, if it shakes out in 3-5 years that the CAA is a good all-sport choice...boom, they are the next school in. If not, he has created some serious cache and flexibility for SBU, aka perception and strength.

SaltySeawolf · 06-26-2012, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farfromtheshow

Ok, I'm going to spell this out for everyone so people know why everyone in the AE is frantic: Q and CCSU, who people on here seem to think are in the bag as a fall-back in the worst case scenario... ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE AE. That is from sources very, very close to the situation. That is the problem. With no legit D1 schools biting to join the AE, the league is in a very precarious situation.

The good news is that the people running the AE despise Sam enough that they may just go out and add CCSU and Quinn out of spite. Sam is a bright guy and I have to think he had already thought of this as he posted. Reverse psychology works on the best of them.

Dane96 · 06-26-2012, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aceinthehole

Big difference - Albany was never in the NEC for all sports. UA's football affiliate status does not mean that the NEC would automatically extend that option to Bryant/CCSU/Monmouth if they left for the AE.

There is no precedent - affilate agreements are independent contracts that the league membership must vote on and renew, so there are no guartnees. I can assure you this, if QU leaves the NEC, I'm pretty certain the NEC Presidents would not approve affilate status in ANY sport, unless it was needed to keep an AQ.

After reading those quote from the UNH AD is it really that hard to think that QU is not interested in the AE's overtures? My guess would be that Bryant and others likley feel the same.

After reading Fiore's quote, I had hope the league had a long term plan. But after the reading quotes from BU and UNH, the stability of the AE is much more of a problem than we on this board realize. The only league more unstable than America East right now is the Big East.

Couple things ACE.

1- Forget Lynch's comments. Completely different scenario than UNH.
2- Marty's comments are a bit over-reaching. First, all schools are out for their best interests. Second, yes society has become that and thensome; different argument for another thread.

Third, is a bit more sensitive and I want to say this to my UNH friends and our board brethren clearly: I AM NOT ATTACKING UNH...I am pointing out my opinion of the reality at UNH. And for the avoidance of doubt, know that I think ALL OF OUR SCHOOLS IN THE AE HAVE THEIR WARTS!!!

Marty is in a really tough position, similar to that of Maine. UNH long-ago marginalized many sports for the benefit of Football and Men's/Women's Hockey. I remember UNH being the dominant volleyball team for many years, as an example. Lacrosse, baseball...gone. Direct financial support plus the "stringent" academic requirements that are so hyped by UNH supporters absolutely has affected UNH's capacity to support athletics on a broad level.

But more important to this is a bigger financial issue: outside funding. It is very clear that the State of New Hampshire doesn't have quite the resources of let's say a NYS to support UNH's endeavours. 20% support (making numbers up for argument sake) from the State in NY compare to NH is much different as an overall financial impact.

Additionally, the pool of donors and potential income sources through advertising / marketing is much smaller at UNH than it is at Albany, SBU and Bing as examples. I remember Marty stating such in an article a few years back about upgrading UNH's facilities and their support of the football team w/ salaries and recruiting budget.

You add all the above together...if I were Marty I would say the same thing: "Damn, I am in this cost-contained league with peers...now I have all this movement around me...can I spend the money to go to the CAA? Am I attractive to the A-Ten and can I bust out the dollars to compete. Or is something like the PL much more fitting for me. And I must protect football and hockey."

I would freak out like Marty based on the above factors. And here's the thing: The Patriot IS a proper fit for UNH...and even for Maine when it comes to an overall league. No doubt in my mind that aside from the AE...the PL is the best landing spot academically and athletically based on culture and finances.

However...the PL is a non-starter...period. There is something people have forgotten for a long-time...an argument I and others brought up years ago on this board: LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THE ACADEMIC INDEX!

As a State school, the mission of UNH is quite different than the PL. PL schools can do whatever they please in admitting their students short of a blatent sexual, racial, gender or creed decision on admitting a student, e.g. "Sorry kid...you wear a turbin/yamalke/fill in the blank...so we can't admit you." That won't fly. However, they CAN restrict students based on the AI without much issue.

A State school can not do that. A State school MUST admit a student matching the same requirements as its overall student body, within reason of course (they can pick from a pool). However, the AI in the PL would only affect UNH's athletes...and that would be a constitutional violation of epic proportions.

It is why the "Towson" experiment failed...why Towson was a joke back then because Towson had a "looser" AI (no matter what a PL fan will tell you) and Towson still couldn't produce a strong squad. It's why Albany and SBU were rejected in 1999 for membership (along with financial benefits of lower tuition/recruitment).

UNH, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, Binghamton, et al aka any State entity school would have to have much differing AI's from the rest of the PL, one that matches THEIR student population to a "T". This would be a major boost for these schools compared to the requirements of the rest of the PL...and no way the privates in the PL would stand for that as it would create instant competitive imbalance if done right, e.g. not the Towson way. It would be almost impossible to administer and the risk would be great for the University.

In the end, Marty is freaking because of the following: 1) The PL, without a drastic change to the AI, is a legal spider-web for UNH; 2) The cost of moving to another league would be great for UNH; 3) Schools ARE acting in their best interest; 4) State and private financial support would have to be increased significantly for UNH not just for travel--I think this is not an issue--but for team support to bring them to a competitive level at a facility, recruiting and coaching level. Chances of increaseing finacial support are not great short of an FBS move.

Marty should be worried...but the end is not near as some people want to argue on this board...some really normally rationale individuals.

My .02....hack away.

bosiydid · 06-26-2012, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farfromtheshow

I don't think that people get where the America East stands right now in the landscape of college athletics and Men's Basketball in specific.

Yes Sam...only you get it...thank God you still grace us with your presence. Listen, I said it a month ago, why would anyone from the NEC want to come to the AE, it's a lateral move at best.

Aceinthehole · 06-26-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane96

In the end, Marty is freaking because of the following: 1) The PL, without a drastic change to the AI, is a legal spider-web for UNH; 2) The cost of moving to another league would be great for UNH; 3) Schools ARE acting in their best interest; 4) State and private financial support would have to be increased significantly for UNH not just for travel--I think this is not an issue--but for team support to bring them to a competitive level at a facility, recruiting and coaching level.

My .02....hack away.

D96 - a very fair and accurate analysis about UNH. I fully concur with your assessment.

I do think the AE, as currently comprised of state universities, is no longer a good match for smaller private schools like Quinnipiac, Bryant, or Monmouth - Hartford is now a huge outlier. There is this underlying instability among existing members because of the differences in state finances, private fundraising, locations, and of course conference realignment opportunities.

Just as it is a "smart" move for SBU to stay in the AE, I would suggest it is probably a "smart" move for QU to stay in the NEC for now, or possibly explore the MAAC. They would likely gain more by moving to the MAAC, rather than sliding over to the AE.

CCSU is still a question mark on all sides. Academics may still be an issue for some schools, but I doubt it's enough to pass on offering Central if the really AE wants or needs to expand membership. On the other side, like Albany, CCSU faces a football question. What advantage does the AE offer (again, other than academic affiliation) if we have to keep football in the NEC? I think these are some of the other factors that are leading to the AEs instability.

----

And I don't want to put you or all the Albany fans on the spot, but what happens to the AE if Stony Brook does join CAA Football and Albany is not invited? How "collegial" do you expect your AD to be when, it is UNH, Maine, and SBU that is preventing the AE from sponsoring football and having all the teams play in the same league?

ecasadoSBU · 06-26-2012, 07:23 AM

MaineJeff... Did you really have to blow it? f*ck...

I was hoping this would somehow end up in an Albany-SBU pissing match early in the morning. Oh well...

ecasadoSBU · 06-26-2012, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane96

Jeff.

BOOM BOOM...on two points. The above one is obvious. I rarely see the "PM's" on any message board.

Back to the second and more important BOOM. Jeff went "Boom goes dynamite" on this topic of expansion.

Here's the deal folks. Aside from us--the fans, schools and the athletes--their is significant marginalization at our level of athletics. It's a fact we need to all embrace right now. Sure, there is some exposure...but generally speaking...the CAA and WCC are about the lowest level that anyone gives a toot about nationally...and that is relatively new (15 years or so for the WCC and last 8 or so for the CAA).

There will be a massive shift soon to super conferences and I am afraid we will see a completely different landscape of college football for one thing. This +4 system effectively destroys every "mid-major" FBS football conference. THEY HAVE NO SHOT...REPEAT...NO LEGITIMATE SHOT...at competing for National Titles under this system. Wait until the schools look at their bottom line at the mid-major FBS football level and realize they have a miniscule ROI. Two things will happen: Congress will get involved using their tools at hand, or you will see another level of football created.

As for hoops this will have a conference trickle down effect as the Big East as we know it will go bye-bye...and mark-it...the hoops schools will make the break when the well dries up from the +4 format and its effect on BE football.

So...short point: CHANGES ARE LOOMING...and this is just the appetizer course. At this level, you sit and hang tight for the big changes. As a good guy in development at UA said a long-bit ago: why incur all these costs when we will eventually be in a similar league in the sense of "one-bid" status.

This sounds horrible... ^^^

Quote:

Stony Brook--if Fiore really has his hat on--will do exactly what Jeff says. Sit tight in the AE and become the new "Delaware" while UA and maybe two others fight it out for the new "BU" slot. Fiore puts football in the CAA acheiving two goals: 1) Reducing costs; and 2) recruitment of better athletes and FBS payouts to make a potential transition in 5 years to whatever shakes out.

It's a win-win. SBU will be banging at the top of every league battle for a championship from here on out and, if it shakes out in 3-5 years that the CAA is a good all-sport choice...boom, they are the next school in. If not, he has created some serious cache and flexibility for SBU, aka perception and strength.

this sounds better ^^

I wonder what would truly happen...

After BUs unexpected decision to bounce to the PL (which no one even considered out here) I don't take any of this speculation

Dane96 · 06-26-2012, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aceinthehole

Just as it is a "smart" move for SBU to stay in the AE, I would suggest it is probably a "smart" move for QU to stay in the NEC for now, or possibly explore the MAAC. They would likely gain more by moving to the MAAC, rather than sliding over to the AE.
----------
And I don't want to put you or all the Albany fans on the spot, but what happens to the AE if Stony Brook does join CAA Football and Albany is not invited? How "collegial" do you expect your AD to be when, it is UNH, Maine, and SBU that is preventing the AE from sponsoring football and having all the teams play in the same league?

I agree. If Rich Ensor had a brain...he would be banging on the door of QU at the very least. Bryant and Monmouth are unique because, as we all know, FOOTBALL. If they are serious about supporting it at a high-level...the MAAC is not a fit. If not, they could be fit.

But the Q...perfect add on for the MAAC. They fit the profile to a "T".

As for Albany's AD--pfft. Your question intimates that he has the political savvy and drive to actually do something. A different AD at Albany and you might see a slam-dunk Albany and SBU recruitment now by the CAA.

He has accomplished some very good things with a small budget, and I give him big kudos for that. However, IMHO, he has been out of his depth in certain areas such as the Stadium and conference foresight (unless he is SO good that he is keeping it all close to the vest). I just think he has a differing vision than many of us, and even than that of the late Dr. Kermit Hall who saw Albany's ceiling as higher than the AE, "but we will never be The Ohio State".

UNHFan · 06-26-2012, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane96

Couple things ACE.

1- Forget Lynch's comments. Completely different scenario than UNH.
2- Marty's comments are a bit over-reaching. First, all schools are out for their best interests. Second, yes society has become that and thensome; different argument for another thread.

Third, is a bit more sensitive and I want to say this to my UNH friends and our board brethren clearly: I AM NOT ATTACKING UNH...I am pointing out my opinion of the reality at UNH. And for the avoidance of doubt, know that I think ALL OF OUR SCHOOLS IN THE AE HAVE THEIR WARTS!!!

Marty is in a really tough position, similar to that of Maine. UNH long-ago marginalized many sports for the benefit of Football and Men's/Women's Hockey. I remember UNH being the dominant volleyball team for many years, as an example. Lacrosse, baseball...gone. Direct financial support plus the "stringent" academic requirements that are so hyped by UNH supporters absolutely has affected UNH's capacity to support athletics on a broad level.

But more important to this is a bigger financial issue: outside funding. It is very clear that the State of New Hampshire doesn't have quite the resources of let's say a NYS to support UNH's endeavours. 20% support (making numbers up for argument sake) from the State in NY compare to NH is much different as an overall financial impact.

Additionally, the pool of donors and potential income sources through advertising / marketing is much smaller at UNH than it is at Albany, SBU and Bing as examples. I remember Marty stating such in an article a few years back about upgrading UNH's facilities and their support of the football team w/ salaries and recruiting budget.

You add all the above together...if I were Marty I would say the same thing: "Damn, I am in this cost-contained league with peers...now I have all this movement around me...can I spend the money to go to the CAA? Am I attractive to the A-Ten and can I bust out the dollars to compete. Or is something like the PL much more fitting for me. And I must protect football and hockey."

I would freak out like Marty based on the above factors. And here's the thing: The Patriot IS a proper fit for UNH...and even for Maine when it comes to an overall league. No doubt in my mind that aside from the AE...the PL is the best landing spot academically and athletically based on culture and finances.

However...the PL is a non-starter...period. There is something people have forgotten for a long-time...an argument I and others brought up years ago on this board: LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THE ACADEMIC INDEX!

As a State school, the mission of UNH is quite different than the PL. PL schools can do whatever they please in admitting their students short of a blatent sexual, racial, gender or creed decision on admitting a student, e.g. "Sorry kid...you wear a turbin/yamalke/fill in the blank...so we can't admit you." That won't fly. However, they CAN restrict students based on the AI without much issue.

A State school can not do that. A State school MUST admit a student matching the same requirements as its overall student body, within reason of course (they can pick from a pool). However, the AI in the PL would only affect UNH's athletes...and that would be a constitutional violation of epic proportions.

It is why the "Towson" experiment failed...why Towson was a joke back then because Towson had a "looser" AI (no matter what a PL fan will tell you) and Towson still couldn't produce a strong squad. It's why Albany and SBU were rejected in 1999 for membership (along with financial benefits of lower tuition/recruitment).

UNH, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, Binghamton, et al aka any State entity school would have to have much differing AI's from the rest of the PL, one that matches THEIR student population to a "T". This would be a major boost for these schools compared to the requirements of the rest of the PL...and no way the privates in the PL would stand for that as it would create instant competitive imbalance if done right, e.g. not the Towson way. It would be almost impossible to administer and the risk would be great for the University.

In the end, Marty is freaking because of the following: 1) The PL, without a drastic change to the AI, is a legal spider-web for UNH; 2) The cost of moving to another league would be great for UNH; 3) Schools ARE acting in their best interest; 4) State and private financial support would have to be increased significantly for UNH not just for travel--I think this is not an issue--but for team support to bring them to a competitive level at a facility, recruiting and coaching level. Chances of increaseing finacial support are not great short of an FBS move.

Marty should be worried...but the end is not near as some people want to argue on this board...some really normally rationale individuals.

My .02....hack away.

No offense taken and it is a very fair and true estimate of where UNH is!

Aceinthehole · 06-26-2012, 09:07 AM

Some interesting quotes from the Robert Morris AD.

Quote:

"We're not looking to go anywhere at this point," Coleman said Monday. "We're happy in the Northeast Conference. We think it's a good league for us."

"We've seen rumors about the Horizon League looking our way," Coleman said, "but we've had zero conversations with the Horizon League."

"We've seen more than just (Quinnipiac and Bryant) mentioned; there are lots of rumors as to what will happen with America East. They could scarf up a school or two from our league. They have been rumored to merge with another conference.

"I don't think anybody anticipated that Boston University was going to the Patriot League. We spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about rumors ... and how it's going to trickle down to us, but this was not one that anyone saw coming."

http://www.timesonline.com/sports/lo...6d066937c.html

Dane96 · 06-26-2012, 09:21 AM

WOW. That's WTF. Who on earth would they merge with.

As the world turns....

06-26-2012, 06:38 AM	#50 (permalink)
Dane96 Star Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 3,413 Rep Power: 23593	Re: Who's going where? More fallout expected! Jeff. BOOM BOOM...on two points. The above one is obvious. I rarely see the "PM's" on any message board. Back to the second and more important BOOM. Jeff went "Boom goes dynamite" on this topic of expansion. Here's the deal folks. Aside from us--the fans, schools and the athletes--their is significant marginalization at our level of athletics. It's a fact we need to all embrace right now. Sure, there is some exposure...but generally speaking...the CAA and WCC are about the lowest level that anyone gives a toot about nationally...and that is relatively new (15 years or so for the WCC and last 8 or so for the CAA). There will be a massive shift soon to super conferences and I am afraid we will see a completely different landscape of college football for one thing. This +4 system effectively destroys every "mid-major" FBS football conference. THEY HAVE NO SHOT...REPEAT...NO LEGITIMATE SHOT...at competing for National Titles under this system. Wait until the schools look at their bottom line at the mid-major FBS football level and realize they have a miniscule ROI. Two things will happen: Congress will get involved using their tools at hand, or you will see another level of football created. As for hoops this will have a conference trickle down effect as the Big East as we know it will go bye-bye...and mark-it...the hoops schools will make the break when the well dries up from the +4 format and its effect on BE football. So...short point: CHANGES ARE LOOMING...and this is just the appetizer course. At this level, you sit and hang tight for the big changes. As a good guy in development at UA said a long-bit ago: why incur all these costs when we will eventually be in a similar league in the sense of "one-bid" status. Stony Brook--if Fiore really has his hat on--will do exactly what Jeff says. Sit tight in the AE and become the new "Delaware" while UA and maybe two others fight it out for the new "BU" slot. Fiore puts football in the CAA acheiving two goals: 1) Reducing costs; and 2) recruitment of better athletes and FBS payouts to make a potential transition in 5 years to whatever shakes out. It's a win-win. SBU will be banging at the top of every league battle for a championship from here on out and, if it shakes out in 3-5 years that the CAA is a good all-sport choice...boom, they are the next school in. If not, he has created some serious cache and flexibility for SBU, aka perception and strength.

06-26-2012, 07:23 AM	#55 (permalink)
ecasadoSBU Veteran Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Stony Brook, NY Posts: 2,343 Rep Power: 9250	Re: Who's going where? More fallout expected! MaineJeff... Did you really have to blow it? fck... I was hoping this would somehow end up in an Albany-SBU pissing match early in the morning. Oh well... __________________ Everything a Stony Brook Fan Needs:* SBU FANS Message Board - http://sbufan.createaforum.com/index.php I'MASEAWOLF News/Fan board/Blog: http://www.imaseawolf.com/ WUSB.FM - SBU Athletics Radio Streaming & Sports Blog: http://sbradiosports.blogspot.com/ Official Stony Brook Athletics Site: http://www.goseawolves.org/

06-26-2012, 09:21 AM	#60 (permalink)
Dane96 Star Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 3,413 Rep Power: 23593	Re: Who's going where? More fallout expected! WOW. That's WTF. Who on earth would they merge with. As the world turns....

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