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Old 04-04-2012, 11:10 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Originally Posted by AdamtheFlyer View Post
Stop. UD and Wright State are not similar in any way. Wright State made the tourney because they won a league with one team as competition. 85% of their games are against horrible teams, and many years they struggle to win half of them. Same with Cleveland State. As good as Butler has been, occasionally they will get beat, because that's basketball. That's the only way other Horizon teams can sniff the dance.

If all Dayton had to do was beat a few MAC teams on a neutral floor to make the dance, or Horizon teams at UD Arena, they would have made several NCAAs over the past decade. Just stop with this nonsense. In your quest to have a bigger message board penis than someone else, you are disrespecting the A10. Winning 10 games in this league is harder than winning 14 in the MAC, or going unbeaten in the Horizon. Dayton's program, and the A10 in general, is on another level.
Didn't UD go 0-2 against the MAC this year?
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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It's the so called Horizon or MAC level talent teams that UD has had trouble with... Just this year you have Buffalo, Rhode Island, Duquense, Miami etc. losses.

Dayton probably has a larger "profile" than the Wright St, Cleveland St, Ohio U programs of the world simply because they play in the A-10 as opposed to the MAC or Horizon. However, UD has frankly had less success than many of these teams in the NCAA tournament.
Why are you focusing on this year? UD has had little trouble beating MAC teams over the last decade. Going back as far as ESPN will let me, I have UD at 16-4 vs MAC teams, with a 5-3 record away from UD. All three of those losses are at Miami, a house of horrors Xavier fans know all about. When Dayton or X goes into Miami, the Redhawks tend to become a borderline top 25 team for 40 minutes. Charlie Coles was a wizard, winning home games and having more near road upsets than anyone in the game.

I didn't see a single loss to any Horizon league team.

Let's stop pretending Dayton struggles with that level of program. They beat them. Often. This year was the exception, not the rule.

There are many reasons to knock Dayton. Pretending they are MAC level is not one of them. Let's use our brains. It's much easier to make the tourney in those leagues than it is the A10. You only have to beat 3 other MAC teams. Not exactly daunting. In the A10 you either have to beat 3 A10 teams, which is tough, or position yourself better than many teams from BCS leagues, plus the MWC, MVC, CAA and WCC teams, which is tougher.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

UD isn't a MAC level program, they have a higher profile because they play in the A-10 and generally a middle of the pack team in a decent league. They are a good mid-major program (Wright St, Cleveland St, Ohio U are also considered mid-majors). The argument that was made is the actual success UD has achieved is more similar to a Wright St, Cleveland St, Ohio U and many other A-10 schools than it is to Xavier.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:17 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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UD isn't a MAC level program, they have a higher profile because they play in the A-10 and generally a middle of the pack team in a decent league. They are a good mid-major program (Wright St, Cleveland St, Ohio U are also considered mid-majors). The argument that was made is the actual success UD has achieved is more similar to a Wright St, Cleveland St, Ohio U and many other A-10 schools than it is to Xavier.
But that's wrong. You are measured against your peers. I just showed you that UD and those programs are not peers. You can't compare NCAA records between different level programs, because the paths to the NCAA are so different. Like I said, if Dayton only had to beat MAC teams to make the tourney, they'd have a whole heck of a lot more NCAA success. MAC schools are compared with programs like Belmont, Davidson, Murray State and Cleveland State. Compare Dayton with A10, MVC, MWC and CAA programs. Anyone can win a game in March, your overall success is compared with peers who share similar paths to getting there.

Dayton is lacking in comparison to some of their peers. But they dwarf MAC and Horizon league programs not named Butler in every conceivable way.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:37 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

Dayton < MAC and Horizon also rans!

Ha!

I think Dayton would compete favorably in the Horizon league. Not so much in the MAC. Sure, they may be a little better now, but not sure they'd get the same recruits if they were in the MAC or Horizon that they get now. It'd all even out. I think in the Horizon, they'd consistently be in the top half, but not commonly in the top 2. In the MAC, I don't think they'd compete long term given all the extraneous factors that would come with it.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:40 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

So if Dayton was in the MAC, they'd have "a whole heck of a lot more NCAA success." That's a pretty big leap to make. If your argument is that UD's only path to make the NCAA tournament is to win the MAC or Horizon tournament, they may be best served joining one of those leagues. I don't think X has been an auto qualifier since 2006, yet they have no problem making the NCAAs.

"Anyone can win a game in March." You're right, anyone can win in the NIT, CBI etc.

Dayton "dwarfs MAC and Horizon league programs not named Butler in every conceivable way." Really? Other than NCAA tournament success I guess..
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:44 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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If all Dayton had to do was beat a few MAC teams on a neutral floor to make the dance, or Horizon teams at UD Arena, they would have made several NCAAs over the past decade.
I strongly disagree with this. To assume Dayton would have gotten the 1 seed to get home court advantage or would have won their conference tournament several times the past decade is just wrong. They wouldn't have beaten Butler in the Horizon the years they won the title and who knows how they would have done in the MAC Tournament with BG as their coach. In the past decade, I don't think UD would have gone to any more NCAA Tournaments than they have in the A10 if they would have had to win their conference tournament to get in.

I think you're forgetting that you're Dayton and always pull off epic collapses both late in the season and in conference tournaments. You would have found a way to F it up and end up on the wrong side of the bubble like you have most years this decade. At least UD would have been able to still maintain their status as the team with the most NIT appearances, which represents a remarkable record of mediocrity.

UD is far closer to programs like Cleveland State than they are to X. They still need to catch up to Ohio U and Murray State's level of achievement before they can even consider sniffing the type of success that X has achieved the past decade.

The order goes like this: Xavier>Murray State>Ohio U>Dayton...Numbers don't lie!
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:36 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

Summing up the Flyer season:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/10...ton_medium.jpg
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:05 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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I don't think UD would have gone to any more NCAA Tournaments than they have in the A10 if they would have had to win their conference tournament to get in.
And that is why you can't compare Dayton to Wright State. How many at-large bids has Wright State had? How many have Dayton had? In the last 8 years? (And it had to be 8 years, since 9 years would add another bid for the Flyers. And 10 would have had another. But that is why the comparison was purposely arranged.) How many NCAA wins has Wright State had in the last 8 years? How about Dayton? See, these are ridiculous questions to use to base an argument on.

Yes, Dayton's results are not what the Dayton fans would like to see. But to compare us to Wright State because we've both made the tourney isn't a valid argument. I'd like to have the results that Xavier and Temple has. Why? Because they win. And they win consistently. And don't have many down years. Dayton struggles in those areas.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:17 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

X fans are grasping at straws on this one...badly. One, to believe the X argument here completely belittles the A10 and X's own accomplishments. Two, the MAC and Horizon are historically ONE bid leagues. Now take Butler for example who has made 2 of the last 3 NC games: does that mean X wouldn't have even made the NCAA in 2/3 years? Safe to say so......(now we know that's a ridiculous claim but that's where your argument is headed X fans....) You are downgrading your own accomplishments by lifting up ONE bid leagues in your attempt to trash UD.

No one, not even ATF, is saying if UD were in those leagues we'd make 12 straight NCAA's...all he said was we'd make more then what we have. How hard is that to grasp????? (that's of course assuming that nothing else changed...recruiting, OOC success, ect)
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Now take Butler for example who has made 2 of the last 3 NC games: does that mean X wouldn't have even made the NCAA in 2/3 years? Safe to say so......(now we know that's a ridiculous claim but that's where your argument is headed X fans....) You are downgrading your own accomplishments by lifting up ONE bid leagues in your attempt to trash UD.
What argument are you even making? I'm being honest... I don't get where you're going at all. Nobody is trying to lift up the MAC or Horizon.

I'll give you that Wright St vs. Dayton is a stretch... But comparing UD, Ohio and Cleveland St is a very fair comparison. Their level of success is very similar, with Ohio on top of that group.

And also, if the argument is Dayton would have made the NCAA tournament significantly more over the last quarter century if they were in the MAC or Horizon, why not move there? Isn't the goal to put your program in the best position to make the NCAA tourney? A-10 teams like Xavier and Temple have chosen the route of strong OOC scheduling and at-large bids.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

Why stop there. Just join the Sun Belt or NEC. Sue on affirmative action grounds to join the SWAC. The goal is to compete with similar institutions and programs, and make enough money to sustain and grow in the process.

Norfolk State and Lehigh just won tourney games. Their programs aren't comparable to Dayton because they've won the same amount of NCAA games over the last 5 years. Davidson isn't a more successful program than UD because they went to an Elite 8. When it comes to the NCAA tourney, literally anything can happen once.

What you are doing IS diminishing the A10, because you're pretending Dayton and the other schools face similar paths getting to the dance. They don't. Schools from one bid leagues face an unquestionably easier path, despite generally not getting at-large spots.

I don't think you understand this, because your school has made it seem routine, but getting at-larges as an A10 program is extremely hard to do. You have to win 8-10 games against similar and often times better programs, while avoiding more than the rare slip up, to build a resume. Luck can play a major factor in a single elimination tourney. You can't luck your way into an at-large.

And then, if you don't get over that hump, you have to play teams like Xavier, Temple, SLU, St Joe, and Richmond to earn an auto-bid. That seems quite a bit tougher than beating Ball State, Northern Illinois, Eastern Michigan, and then maybe you have to beat a decent Akron team that wouldn't finish top half in the A10.

Ohio went to the Sweet 16. St Bona lost in the first round. Who had the more successful season? Hands down, it was St Bona. They finished 4th in a very good league, had to beat good St Joe and UMass teams, then had to beat a Sweet 16 Xavier team just for the right to play in the dance. That's f*cking tough. Much more impressive than pulling one upset and then beating another double digit seed who probably shouldn't have even been in the dance.

Tourney success is what we all desire, Lord knows we Dayton fans have extra blue tourney balls right now, but don't overrate it as it applies to the majority. It's only a litmus test to a small percentage of teams. Unless you're an elite program (and I'd put Xavier in that group), the path to the dance is what truly defines your success. That path is a whole lot easier in the MAC. You can't compare MAC and Horizon teams (with Butler as the exception) to A10 programs. It's an entirely different level of play. Same reason you can't compare A10 teams (with Xavier and Temple as the exceptions) with Big East teams. Night and day issues.

Jay Bilas is on a crusade to eliminate auto-bids for this very reason, that it's too easy for lesser programs get in simply by beating other lesser programs. His premise is factually correct, but I prefer the tourney as is. It's a better watch with Cinderella, and the bubble watch is the best part of hoops season.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:07 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

I agree it's more difficult to get an automatic bid from an A-10 type league, then a Horizon or MAC-type league. I also agree it's generally tough to get an at-large bid, but as you pointed out it's become the norm at Xavier (11 out of last 12 years). By Xavier standards if X doesn't make the NCAA, the season is a failure.

And as so many programs, players, coaches, fans, analysts etc judge the success of programs/teams by post-season NCAA success, I still think it's a fair comparison. In last 25 years, UD has 5 NCAA appearances and 2 wins. OU has 4 appearances and 3 wins in last 25 years. Doesn't get much closer than that.

What this back and forth started out with is someone mentioning that the success UD has achieved is more in line with the Ohio U's (I won't include Wright St) than the Xavier's of the basketball world... and it's pretty hard to argue against that. I get that UD and X are rivals but that constant comparing, degrading, criticizing and delusional projections of UD fans towards X ("Mack is going to sail the X ship right into the Ohio River" etc etc) is so tiresome. About the only things similar are their league affiliation, location, university academics and facilites. In terms of actual results, success and national program stature/recognition, the programs are just so so very different, and have been for decades.
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:07 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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I agree it's more difficult to get an automatic bid from an A-10 type league, then a Horizon or MAC-type league. I also agree it's generally tough to get an at-large bid, but as you pointed out it's become the norm at Xavier (11 out of last 12 years). By Xavier standards if X doesn't make the NCAA, the season is a failure.

And as so many programs, players, coaches, fans, analysts etc judge the success of programs/teams by post-season NCAA success, I still think it's a fair comparison. In last 25 years, UD has 5 NCAA appearances and 2 wins. OU has 4 appearances and 3 wins in last 25 years. Doesn't get much closer than that.

What this back and forth started out with is someone mentioning that the success UD has achieved is more in line with the Ohio U's (I won't include Wright St) than the Xavier's of the basketball world... and it's pretty hard to argue against that. I get that UD and X are rivals but that constant comparing, degrading, criticizing and delusional projections of UD fans towards X ("Mack is going to sail the X ship right into the Ohio River" etc etc) is so tiresome. About the only things similar are their league affiliation, location, university academics and facilites. In terms of actual results, success and national program stature/recognition, the programs are just so so very different, and have been for decades.

Look, what the hell is your point??? or ChicagoX's for that matter? To get on ANOTHER Dayton thread and hijack it??? Not ONCE, in this thread has any UD fan compared ourselves to X's program, NOT ONCE. Chicago X got this ball rolling, a Xavier fan by comparing us to WSU or whoever. Never did we compare ourselves to X yet you keep bringing up that we are comparing ourselves to X yet we're closer to WSU. Put away your delusional penis envy! All ATF has talked about in this thread is the MAC, the HORIZON and UD and has barely even had to mention X and he certainly wasn't making any comparison to X and UD in those posts, so again I ask, why the hijacking by Chicago X and the further comments by other X fans as yourself in this???? I don't get it.....

the comment, "IF UD played in the MAC or Horizon we would have made a few more NCAA's" shouldn't threaten your holiness. Give me a break. Again, an X fan started this whole mess just so everyone is clear on this....by comparing MAC and HORIZON teams to the A10....

ATF had a simple point and spelled it out plainly and it's a point I made a week or two ago in another thread. You can't use an NCAA win here or an NCAA win there to make your point when debating OU vs. UD or OU vs. whoever. The season is 28-30 games, the NCAA is a one and done elimination game tourny where anything can happen. The trick is getting there so the ANYTHING can happen, X has mastered that. Do you realize how close it was this year to UD playing in that tourny and NOT X??? And then of course, anything can happen. It's every bit, if not more, impressive the amount of times X is just making the tourny rather then the S16's. I proved that with stats last week. I suppose Lehigh is drawing pretty close to the program that Duke has since they beat them this year? That's a ridiculous example so take this one for example: UConn and Butler.

Were UConn and Butler the two best TEAMS in college basketball last year? Now, the tourny format says yes, but a 6th grader could tell you that no they weren't. Butler probably wouldn't have even made the tourny last year...9-4 in OOC and 13-5 in the Horizon. Very iffy if they would have gotten in at all. Would they have made it if they had been in the A10 that year? Maybe, but it would have been even more difficult if you think the A10 is a tougher conference.

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Old 04-09-2012, 06:08 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Dayton < MAC and Horizon also rans!

Ha!

I think Dayton would compete favorably in the Horizon league. Not so much in the MAC. Sure, they may be a little better now, but not sure they'd get the same recruits if they were in the MAC or Horizon that they get now. It'd all even out. I think in the Horizon, they'd consistently be in the top half, but not commonly in the top 2. In the MAC, I don't think they'd compete long term given all the extraneous factors that would come with it.
What is the difference? Underachieving in the A-10 or the MAC or the Horizon still gets you a Preseason Championship banner ...
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