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Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #496 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

OK,OK we get it.
You're X fans and you relish the bad loss last night by the Flyers.

The gaiety and revelry in which the X fans are enjoying is clear evidence that the muddy mentality is not muddy's alone.These X fans are just as fixated.

And xu1990,I seriously doubt that you actualy care how panicked we are.

Does Pacific and Weber State play each other?

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Old 11-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #497 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

Bad loss, yes. But, Weber State's pre-Dayton game RPI of 347 (yes, last in a meaningless bunch of 347 rankings) is not reflective of the quality of that team. People have commented on how they had not beaten a D1 team. True. They had played only two so far, both on the road, losing by 1 in OT at San Jose St., and by 10 at Utah St. They were 25-7 and went to the CIT last year. So, bad loss at home, but not an unthinkable one.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #498 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Does Pacific and Weber State play each other?
Pacific is 91.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:56 PM   #499 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

I said it in WH's preview thread, if Dayton was going to have a total letdown game OOC, Weber State was the most likely spot. They are a veteran team full of guys who have won a lot of games. The atmosphere wasn't going to be too much for them. It was too much for Manhattan. Dayton dialed up the pressure and they wilted. Dayton turned it up on Weber State and they calmly ran the same set that had worked all game, and the same two players made the same shots/plays they had made all game. That's what veterans tend to do. Weber isn't particularly talented, but they can execute what they do in their sleep. Those are the lesser teams who can beat you on an off night.

It's a bad loss, pure and simple, but bad losses happen. There are plenty of chances to make up for this and end with a good OOC run. Alabama, Murray State, and USC. If they can win two of those games, this loss becomes outweighed by positives. Illinois State is going to be a team that wins a lot of games in a quality conference, too. That's a good win for the taking. And they'll have about 12 chances in conference for good to great wins.

I'm less concerned with the outcome of this game than I am with the trend starting to develop. Two piss poor efforts in a row. Second game in a row with almost zero help from the bench. That can't happen. Josh Benson has to make better decisions with and without the ball. They have to execute better on defense. Weber State ran the same modified flex screen set to set up a two man inside-out look about 20 times last night, and it almost always worked. That can't happen. It's one thing for an offense to just beat you, but you can't get beat by the same 8th grade play. Offensively, the ball and player movement has been terrible. That's not ability, it's execution.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:31 PM   #500 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Originally Posted by xu1990 View Post
Those of you who check my record will note I am not a UD basher (with rare exceptions for a shot at one pretty annoying poster). So in all seriousness, how panicked does the program get over this loss. Weber State is bad. Fairliegh Dickenson bad. I think Archie is a good guy and am sure a knowledgable coach, but for a program that would like to be, lets say top 50, can't have too many home loses to the Buffalos and Weber States of the world.

How much leash does Archie have. 4 or 5 years of no tournament? less?
He gets the same leash that every coach should get. You really can't evaluate a coach fully until his first class are seniors. That's when the entire team is his guys. Some coaches get dealt AK, and some get 7-2 off. Most are in between. But when the entire roster is your guys, it's about you and you only.

Archie's first class was really just Gavrilovic. By the time he's a senior, we will have a pretty good idea of where he is as a coach.

But if you're claiming Weber State is FDU bad, please, start watching basketball beyond Xavier and a handful of other games. One team has won 8 games in the last two seasons, and has a high of 11 wins in the last 5 years. The other hasn't had a losing record in 6 years, including three 20 win seasons. I'm not touting the greatness of Weber State, but let's at least use some measure of knowledge.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:31 PM   #501 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Pacific is 91.
Was that the question asked? You even quoted it. Didn't you all just finish yelling at Muddy about how RPI is meaningless at this point?

Adam, I hear you that the execution wasn't there, I'm just worried that the ability isn't either.

Robinson lacks the physicality to compete every possession with bona fide D1 bigs. His body is too soft. He also guns up shots too much.

Benson also lacks this physicality, but unlike Robinson he will never have it. Josh is skinny, and gets pushed around under the basket on both ends. Josh, if they are going to call you for travelling every time you do that sweeping layup, maybe you should stop doing it?

Gav, who I was hopeful could have a breakout year based on Archie's preseason comments, fouls too much. He can't help himself. But, still, I think he could end up being our best option at the 5.

Oliver is a reluctant shooter and always will be. He is certainly not the problem, but we need him to take more ownership at the end of games. You aren't an underclassman anymore.

Dillard made the huge defensive lapse at the end of the game giving up the 3 to Bamforth. When I saw those two had matched up in transition, I predicted aloud that he would get an open 3. Dillard is a lazy defender who likes to float around and lets his eyes wander. He defends everyone the same, no matter their ability. He did almost the exact same thing to give up a HUGE 3 against Colorado to Askia Booker. For him, it is a focus thing. But I have seen nothing to think he is ever going to change this.

Sanford prefers driving over shooting, which is a problem for us. He cannot be the least bit hesitant to put up that kick out three, or it affects everyone else. Even if he misses, he has to force D's to respect it. Worst of all, he came up small when the pressure was on last night.

Pierre is okay, but is not a gamechanger at this point. I frankly think we need to find him more shots. He is our best outside shooter besides Dillard, which is sad.

Khari Price does what is asked of him, and is already a high quality defender. Archie said on his radio show that Khari is a good outside shooter. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable, he can fill a role as a shooter/floor spacer off the bench.

The bottom line: its all on Dillard, which is unfortunate. He is the only high caliber player on the team. Generally speaking, you aren't going to win with only one high caliber player. At this point, last year's team looks much better than this year's. Sigh.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:19 PM   #502 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Originally Posted by AdamtheFlyer View Post
I said it in WH's preview thread, if Dayton was going to have a total letdown game OOC, Weber State was the most likely spot. They are a veteran team full of guys who have won a lot of games. The atmosphere wasn't going to be too much for them. It was too much for Manhattan.
There is a UD fan who is suggesting that the atmosphere is too much for UD and contributed to the loss! Indeed, it was palpable.

Never thought I'd hear a loss partially attributed to the home-crowd atmosphere.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:39 PM   #503 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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There is a UD fan who is suggesting that the atmosphere is too much for UD and contributed to the loss! Indeed, it was palpable.

Never thought I'd hear a loss partially attributed to the home-crowd atmosphere.
OK Xavierhoops, I am going to try to use my little-boy words to see if we can communicate. Really impressed you know the meaning of "palpable," by the way. So kudos for that. First, here is exactly what you are referring to:

"There is a certain obnoxious pressure to playing in UD arena, and its interesting to see who is comfortable with it. When a player misses or the team struggles, especially in a game like tonight where UD is expected to win, there is a palpable anxiety in the crowd and in the players. Devin Oliver, for instance, has never been comfortable in these situations. Tonight, he received a kick out pass late in the game and was open for three, but he swung the ball without hesitation. I fear that Vee Sanford will succomb to the same beast, as he passed up open shots in favor of a 'head fake, penetrate, pass.' At the end of the game, it was all on Dillard. Only, unlike last year, we didn't have three seniors spreading the floor who were ready and willing to shoot when called upon."

Second, have you ever been to a game at UD arena that wasn't against Xavier?

Third, is what I am saying so inconceivable to all of you? I am not saying we don't have a great home court advantage, or that we would have won the game if we were on the road. I said that certain players tense up when it is winning time, especially in games we are supposed to win, especially when they are right in front of the 12K who expect them to win (and are groaning bc they aren't). The environment is not great in these games, especially for the first 3/4 of the game.

Fourth, just because an atmosphere is difficult to deal with for a visiting team doesn't necessarily mean it is easy to deal with for the home team (as you are suggesting in response to Adam's post). I know you won't be able to wrap your head around this one, so I won't even try.

Finally, at least I am making observations about my team. I have seen dozens of your posts. They are never about Xavier, or even basketball. They are all about UD fans. Step your game up.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:51 PM   #504 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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But if you're claiming Weber State is FDU bad, please, start watching basketball beyond Xavier and a handful of other games. One team has won 8 games in the last two seasons, and has a high of 11 wins in the last 5 years. The other hasn't had a losing record in 6 years, including three 20 win seasons. I'm not touting the greatness of Weber State, but let's at least use some measure of knowledge.

OK, maybe not FDU bad...but not good. Before placing a few for fun only wagers, I watched snippets of them playing San Jose State. SJSU has one win on the season, Weber. SJSU will struggle to win 5 games this year. See loss to University of New Orleans, who is possibly bottom 10 worst team in D1 after reviving their program.

Weber will win a few games against some Big Sky Schools, but get back to me in a month and let me know if they have been competative against top 150 teams. 11-12 season Weber had exactly ONE top 100 win, against a Montana squad they subsequently lost to twice. 10-11 season beat #99 No Colorado. Thats it. Weber will win 18-20 games, as the Big Sky has some pretty bad team playing out West. Make no mistake, this team finishes 10-14 in the A 10 year in and year out.

For the record I don't think FDU is nearly as bad as they looked against X, evidenced by the fact they have won a couple games. In the all important November RPI they sit at 45.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:30 PM   #505 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

Terrible loss. No other way to spin it. And I am not buying the "young" excuse for this Flyers team that some fans over at UDPride are using. That is a game we need to win 100% of the time. I don't know what to think of Archie and this year's edition of the Flyers at this point. I don't like the trend of losing to lesser teams at home. That absolutely has to stop and it has happened too frequently under Archie's tenure already.

But it is early in both the season and Archie's career, and we have some solid young talent. Like last year, I think we will win a few and lose a few that we shouldn't. Overall, I hope we are heading in the right direction, but as a long time Flyer fan I am much too cynical to get my hopes up too high.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:50 PM   #506 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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Was that the question asked? You even quoted it. Didn't you all just finish yelling at Muddy about how RPI is meaningless at this point?
I was just respondong to Tman's post with Weber @ 327. I agree. Meaningless until March imho. There will be more ugly losses in the A-10 all year so don't really see the point. Win the next one. I don't see the vitrol against Archie. 2 losses? Give me a break. I would not judge him at all until after the third season. I know UD fans always think that their team is much better than it usually is, but these guys haven't really played toghether that much. When the out of bounds play bombed, they didn't know what to do with the ball.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:07 PM   #507 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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I was just respondong to Tman's post with Weber @ 327. I agree. Meaningless until March imho. There will be more ugly losses in the A-10 all year so don't really see the point. Win the next one. I don't see the vitrol against Archie. 2 losses? Give me a break. I would not judge him at all until after the third season. I know UD fans always think that their team is much better than it usually is, but these guys haven't really played toghether that much. When the out of bounds play bombed, they didn't know what to do with the ball.
There should be no vitriol against Archie. He can't go out there and shoot the open layups for them. It was not a pretty loss, but it's over now and all we can do is move on.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:37 PM   #508 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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OK Xavierhoops, I am going to try to use my little-boy words to see if we can communicate. Really impressed you know the meaning of "palpable," by the way. So kudos for that. First, here is exactly what you are referring to:

"There is a certain obnoxious pressure to playing in UD arena, and its interesting to see who is comfortable with it. When a player misses or the team struggles, especially in a game like tonight where UD is expected to win, there is a palpable anxiety in the crowd and in the players. Devin Oliver, for instance, has never been comfortable in these situations. Tonight, he received a kick out pass late in the game and was open for three, but he swung the ball without hesitation. I fear that Vee Sanford will succomb to the same beast, as he passed up open shots in favor of a 'head fake, penetrate, pass.' At the end of the game, it was all on Dillard. Only, unlike last year, we didn't have three seniors spreading the floor who were ready and willing to shoot when called upon."

Second, have you ever been to a game at UD arena that wasn't against Xavier?

Third, is what I am saying so inconceivable to all of you? I am not saying we don't have a great home court advantage, or that we would have won the game if we were on the road. I said that certain players tense up when it is winning time, especially in games we are supposed to win, especially when they are right in front of the 12K who expect them to win (and are groaning bc they aren't). The environment is not great in these games, especially for the first 3/4 of the game.

Fourth, just because an atmosphere is difficult to deal with for a visiting team doesn't necessarily mean it is easy to deal with for the home team (as you are suggesting in response to Adam's post). I know you won't be able to wrap your head around this one, so I won't even try.

Finally, at least I am making observations about my team. I have seen dozens of your posts. They are never about Xavier, or even basketball. They are all about UD fans. Step your game up.
Thanks for using your little-boy words. I have a masters degree, so I'm pretty sure I understand big-boy words... or at the very least know how to use the dictionary to look them up if I don't!

Yea, I've actually been to a game at UD Arena. Interestingly, never been to an X/UD game there.

I only participated in high school athletics, but I'd imagine it's difficult to play in front of 12,000+ people. However, if your attention is on the crowd (particulary a home crowd) once the game begins and you get into the "flow of the game" and a home crowd negatively affects you... there are bigger issues.

I don't think I'll ever agree with partially attributing a loss to the "obnoxious pressure" or "palpable anxiety" of the home crowd. Universally, home crowds are viewed as an overwhelming advantage.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #509 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

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I only participated in high school athletics, but I'd imagine it's difficult to play in front of 12,000+ people. However, if your attention is on the crowd (particulary a home crowd) once the game begins and you get into the "flow of the game" and a home crowd negatively affects you... there are bigger issues.
This I agree with 100%. There are bigger issues. And perhaps the anxiety that I am referring to is not the result of UD arena and will be a recurring theme throughout the year (at the arena and away). But, the type of "pressure" I am referring to from last night could never be replicated in a game against Xavier, Temple or SLU. It is the pressure a field goal kicker feels when he is about to take a 35 yard kick for the win. If you make it, you did your job. If you miss it, you are a pathetic loser.

If Dayton wins last night, they did their job. The 3 KD made with a few minutes left to give us the lead against Manhattan would go down as an epic shot if it happened against Xavier. As it is, it will be forgotten. Devin Oliver and Vee Sanford cowered in the corner last night because they didn't want to be Josh Benson. They didn't want to be the person with the turnover or the missed shot that lost us the game, in front of all these people, who wouldn't have even been that impressed if you pulled out the win. I'm not saying that is anyone's fault but the players on the team. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The only thing I am saying about UD arena is that the environment I describe above is exacerbated by a feeling of "here we go again" more than it is at other schools. I may have a tainted view. You are free to disagree. But do not act as if I am some delusional, excuse-maker in the process.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:07 PM   #510 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Dayton Flyers

I think there is a lot of truth to what Cobra is saying. I've been to games in a lot of places, and have never seen anything like it. UD Arena goes from perhaps the best crowd in the world to angrily apathetic on a near possession by possession basis. We're great, we're terrible, we're great, STILL ****ING TERRIBLE, OH MY GOD WE ARE AWESOME, same old same old. I think the building itself is bipolar.

That said, I don't think that attitude was very prevalent last night. People seemed to be waiting for Weber's run to end and UD to take over. I thought the last ten minutes the crowd was really good, but the team just never got over the hump. Bad night on the floor.

I got to sit in the 100s section last night. I actually prefer my seats up high, much easier to see the entire floor, but I certainly didn't hate being so close to the cheerleaders.
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Last edited by AdamtheFlyer; 11-29-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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