CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 - Page 11 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

Bona84 · 04-01-2012, 05:40 AM

Siena is our sister school. Both Franciscan. I think that their program would rise through association with the A-10. Don't know that Siena is a better choice than the others being discussed, but they do bring a new media market, something that VCU and Mason arguably do not. I say arguably, which may not be the right word, because the additions of VCU and Mason, while not bringing new markets, would arguably increase exposure/ coverage in the Richmond and DC markets.

And give res more opportunities to see his Bonnies play...

RF1 · 04-01-2012, 06:07 AM

Enrollment and Campus data:

Siena: Catholic Private - Undergraduate 3,390 Graduate 33 - 174 acre suburban Loudonville campus
Butler: Private - Undergraduate 4,034 Graduate 633 - 290 acre urban Indianapolis campus
VCU: Public - Undergraduate 23,483 Graduate 8,820 - 143 acre urban Richmond campus
GMU: Public - Undergraduate 20,157 Graduate 12,405 - 700 acre suburban Fairfax main campus
Creighton: Catholic Private - Undergraduate 4,153 Graduate 3,577 - 132 acre urban Omaha campus

The two Virginia state schools have large commuter populations. GMU only houses approximately 5400 students (27% of enrollment) and VCU 4829 (21% of enrollment). A large number of VCU students live just off campus in downtown apartment housing not affiliated with the school.

X-band '01 · 04-01-2012, 07:33 AM

Is VCU's baseball stadium the old Diamond where the Richmond Braves used to play?

Muddy Waters · 04-01-2012, 07:45 AM

My own opinion (quite possibly shared by other Flyers and fans of the Billikens and Musketeers) is that I would be very pleased to trade Temple for Butler.

Atlantic 10 Conference (Wiki) . . Horizon League (Wiki) . . 2010-11 Basketball Attendance (NCAA)

Code:


                                                                 2010-11 BB   Attendance
University              Location      Founded  Type   Enrolment  Attendance    Ranking
 
University of Dayton    Dayton         1850   Private   10,920     12,567       # 27
Xavier University       Cincinnati     1831   Private    6,584     10,098       # 44
Butler University       Indianapolis   1855   Private    4,200      7,178       # 73
Saint Louis University  St. Louis      1818   Private   16,500      6,299       # 84

Temple University       Philadelphia   1884   Public    35,490      5,929       # 90

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  2010-11 BB   Attendance/
University             Enrolment  Attendance    Enrolment

Butler University        4,200      7,178         1.71 
Xavier University        6,584     10,098         1.53
University of Dayton    10,920     12,567         1.16
Saint Louis University  16,500      6,299         0.38

Temple University       35,490      5,929         0.17

The University of Dayton has very little, if anything, in common with Temple University.

Dayton-to-Indianapolis: 117 miles . . Dayton-to-Philadelphia: 544 miles

St. Louis-to-Indianapolis: 243 miles . . St. Louis-to-Philadelphia: 884 miles

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Butler to Atlantic 10? Here are Pros and Cons (The Indianapolis Star – March 31, 2012)

Move to Atlantic 10 would mean more exposure and more travel

Horizon League or Atlantic 10?

The debate rages on.

Would Butler be better off staying where it currently resides (the Horizon) or stepping out of its comfort zone and taking its nationally recognized college basketball program (and its other teams) on the road in the A-10? Many see it as an easy choice.

"I have a great deal of admiration for the A-10 and I obviously think highly of Butler, so just looking at it in that narrow prism, I could see where Butler moving to the A-10 could have a lot of appeal," said CBS television analyst Clark Kellogg. "I think the competition gets a little tougher, but the Horizon is tough, too. Still overall, I think a move like that would raise your stature a little bit because of the teams you would be joining in that conference."

Colonial Athletic Association members George Mason and Virginia Commonwealth, and the Missouri Valley Conference's Creighton also have been mentioned as possible targets of the A-10, which is losing Temple to the Big East.

There's a lot to consider about changing conferences in terms of positives and negatives, however. Here's a look at some of those points for Butler:

Pluses

» At-large berths: Since 2000, the Horizon League has received three at-large bids . . . all to Butler. The A-10 had three this season alone, and 20 since 2000. This year's Horizon League champion, Detroit, was a No. 15 seed. All four of the A-10 entries were seeded No. 14 or better, and with three No. 10 or better.

» More exposure: The Horizon League has one top-10 television market -- Chicago, which ranks third nationally, according to stationindex.com. Detroit ranks No. 11 and Indianapolis No. 25. The A-10 includes No. 1 New York, No. 4 Philadelphia and No. 9 Washington, D.C. Butler also would make regular trips to three others in the top 25: St. Louis (21), Pittsburgh (23) and Charlotte, N.C. (24). From a television contract standpoint, both the Horizon and A-10 appear on ESPN, but the A-10 also has a deal with CBS College Sports.

» Recruiting: The points above make the A-10 a more attractive recruiting option. "The competition is at a higher level, and with the bigger markets, you're just seen by more people,'' said Jerry Meyer, basketball recruiting analyst for Rivals.com. "There's no question that playing in the A-10 would be much more appealing to recruits than playing in the Horizon League.''

Minuses

» Travel: In the Horizon, the farthest trip for the Bulldogs is to Green Bay, a distance of 382 miles, according to mapquest .com. They have two other trips of more than 300 miles. In the A-10, 300 miles would feel like a leisure trip. Two schools, UMass and Rhode Island, are about 880 miles from Indianapolis. New York is 710, Richmond, Va., 653, Philadelphia 644 and Charlotte 625. The average trip in the Horizon is 248 miles. In the A-10, it will be more than 500, which would significantly increase expenses.

» Alumni base: According to figures provided by the school, the A-10 would leave the Bulldogs without a conference rival in the area with the highest concentration of Butler's 44,000 alumni outside of Central Indiana: Chicago (5.1 percent). It would pick up visits to Washington, D.C. (1.7 percent) and the New York area (1.5 percent) but also leave Detroit (1.0 percent). Forty-three percent of Butler's alumni live in Central Indiana.

» Fewer titles: Since 2000, Butler has been the top-ranked basketball team in the Horizon League in terms of Rating Percentage Index nine times. In those same nine seasons, however, the Bulldogs would have only topped the Atlantic 10 twice, and three times it would have ranked fourth.
Neutral

» Rivalries: Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis are within reasonable driving distances and would have significant potential as rivals. But it would be difficult to leave behind established rivalries with Valparaiso, Detroit and Wright State.

Eight Legger · 04-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-band '01

Is VCU's baseball stadium the old Diamond where the Richmond Braves used to play?

Yes...they share it with the Richmond Flying Squirrels, our Double-A affiliate of the SF Giants while our city tries to figure out how to build a new stadium...going on 10 years or so of trying now.

RF1 · 04-01-2012, 08:33 AM

Your arguemnts about SLU and Dayton being closer to Indianapolis than Philadelphia make little overall sense to the conference as a whole. For most A-10 members, Butler is much further away than Temple.

MudFlap · 04-01-2012, 09:08 AM

At 600 mph, it works.

**a10nick** · 04-01-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STLfan

Siena wouldn't be bad but if we end up somehow adding another team beyond Butler or Butler, VCU, and GMU I still like the idea of Creighton.

Creighton has been to the NCAA tournament 17 times, averages between 13,000 and 16,000 every year, and has some nice facilities.

Very Nice Arena

6,000 seat soccer stadium

2,800 seat women's basketball arena

And baseball plays at the 24,000 seat TD Ameritrade Park Omaha

I heartily agree!!! I would take Creighton over Siena any day of the week assuming it was a choice from between those two. My post on Siena was simply to point out what I considered to be faulty notions about the Saints posed by another poster on this thread.

FXF57 · 04-01-2012, 07:18 PM

GM, Butler & VCU seem like good additions based on recent success, location, student population and other factors. However, Richmond is not such a big market as DC or Indiannapols. And we're already in Richmond. Instead of adding VCU, would it make sense to pick up ODU, which is in a metro area slightly larger than Richmond and also broadens the league footprint by moving into a new city, gaining access to more fans/viewers?

bostonspider · 04-01-2012, 07:53 PM

The problem with ODU is their football team. They definitely have plans to move up to FBS and hope to make the Alliance.

FXF57 · 04-01-2012, 08:22 PM

Thanks, Boston. Now I feel better about VCU.

MudFlap · 04-01-2012, 08:43 PM

nm

Bona Wolf for Pope · 04-02-2012, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters

2010-11 BB Attendance/
University Enrolment Attendance Enrolment

Butler University 4,200 7,178 1.71
Xavier University 6,584 10,098 1.53
University of Dayton 10,920 12,567 1.16
Saint Louis University 16,500 6,299 0.38

Temple University 35,490 5,929 0.17[/b][/code]

The University of Dayton has very little, if anything, in common with Temple University.

If ratio of attendance to enrollment is your qualifications, Bonas has to be one of your favorite schools. We're at least 2 to 1.

Muddy Waters · 04-02-2012, 06:14 AM

http://gobonnies.com/sports/m-baskbl...s/teamcume.htm

The Bonnies drew an average of 3926 fans per home game.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities...sity/21/vr/gj/

St. Bonaventure has 2472 students.

Attendance/enrolment ratio = 3926 / 2472 = 1.59

Excellent attendance/enrolment ratio, but not good enough to compensate for the fact that St. Bonaventure University is in Olean, and nobody wants the hassle of traveling to Olean to play in front of 3926 fans.

PVP · 04-02-2012, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters

» Rivalries: Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis are within reasonable driving distances and would have significant potential as rivals. But it would be difficult to leave behind established rivalries with Valparaiso, Detroit and Wright State.

Overall a good post Muddy but this can't be a negative for Butler. Trading ho hum local rivalries vs Valpo, Detroit and Wright State with X, Dayton and Saint Louis has to be a net positive.

04-01-2012, 05:40 AM	#151 (permalink)
Bona84 Star Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 2,778 Rep Power: 262734	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 Siena is our sister school. Both Franciscan. I think that their program would rise through association with the A-10. Don't know that Siena is a better choice than the others being discussed, but they do bring a new media market, something that VCU and Mason arguably do not. I say arguably, which may not be the right word, because the additions of VCU and Mason, while not bringing new markets, would arguably increase exposure/ coverage in the Richmond and DC markets. And give res more opportunities to see his Bonnies play... __________________ Bona84

04-01-2012, 06:07 AM	#152 (permalink)
RF1 Star Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,772 Rep Power: 12506	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 Enrollment and Campus data: Siena: Catholic Private - Undergraduate 3,390 Graduate 33 - 174 acre suburban Loudonville campus Butler: Private - Undergraduate 4,034 Graduate 633 - 290 acre urban Indianapolis campus VCU: Public - Undergraduate 23,483 Graduate 8,820 - 143 acre urban Richmond campus GMU: Public - Undergraduate 20,157 Graduate 12,405 - 700 acre suburban Fairfax main campus Creighton: Catholic Private - Undergraduate 4,153 Graduate 3,577 - 132 acre urban Omaha campus The two Virginia state schools have large commuter populations. GMU only houses approximately 5400 students (27% of enrollment) and VCU 4829 (21% of enrollment). A large number of VCU students live just off campus in downtown apartment housing not affiliated with the school. Last edited by RF1; 04-01-2012 at 07:40 AM.

04-01-2012, 07:33 AM	#153 (permalink)
X-band '01 Veteran Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Montgomery, OH Age: 34 Posts: 1,480 Rep Power: 147698	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 Is VCU's baseball stadium the old Diamond where the Richmond Braves used to play?

04-01-2012, 07:45 AM	#154 (permalink)
Muddy Waters All-Star Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Westmont Illinois Cemetery Age: 98 Posts: 5,288 Rep Power: 64500	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 My own opinion (quite possibly shared by other Flyers and fans of the Billikens and Musketeers) is that I would be very pleased to trade Temple for Butler. Atlantic 10 Conference (Wiki) . . Horizon League (Wiki) . . 2010-11 Basketball Attendance (NCAA) Code: 2010-11 BB Attendance University Location Founded Type Enrolment Attendance Ranking University of Dayton Dayton 1850 Private 10,920 12,567 # 27 Xavier University Cincinnati 1831 Private 6,584 10,098 # 44 Butler University Indianapolis 1855 Private 4,200 7,178 # 73 Saint Louis University St. Louis 1818 Private 16,500 6,299 # 84 Temple University Philadelphia 1884 Public 35,490 5,929 # 90 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2010-11 BB Attendance/ University Enrolment Attendance Enrolment Butler University 4,200 7,178 1.71 Xavier University 6,584 10,098 1.53 University of Dayton 10,920 12,567 1.16 Saint Louis University 16,500 6,299 0.38 Temple University 35,490 5,929 0.17 The University of Dayton has very little, if anything, in common with Temple University. Dayton-to-Indianapolis: 117 miles . . Dayton-to-Philadelphia: 544 miles St. Louis-to-Indianapolis: 243 miles . . St. Louis-to-Philadelphia: 884 miles ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Butler to Atlantic 10? Here are Pros and Cons (The Indianapolis Star – March 31, 2012) Move to Atlantic 10 would mean more exposure and more travel Horizon League or Atlantic 10? The debate rages on. Would Butler be better off staying where it currently resides (the Horizon) or stepping out of its comfort zone and taking its nationally recognized college basketball program (and its other teams) on the road in the A-10? Many see it as an easy choice. "I have a great deal of admiration for the A-10 and I obviously think highly of Butler, so just looking at it in that narrow prism, I could see where Butler moving to the A-10 could have a lot of appeal," said CBS television analyst Clark Kellogg. "I think the competition gets a little tougher, but the Horizon is tough, too. Still overall, I think a move like that would raise your stature a little bit because of the teams you would be joining in that conference." Colonial Athletic Association members George Mason and Virginia Commonwealth, and the Missouri Valley Conference's Creighton also have been mentioned as possible targets of the A-10, which is losing Temple to the Big East. There's a lot to consider about changing conferences in terms of positives and negatives, however. Here's a look at some of those points for Butler: Pluses » At-large berths: Since 2000, the Horizon League has received three at-large bids . . . all to Butler. The A-10 had three this season alone, and 20 since 2000. This year's Horizon League champion, Detroit, was a No. 15 seed. All four of the A-10 entries were seeded No. 14 or better, and with three No. 10 or better. » More exposure: The Horizon League has one top-10 television market -- Chicago, which ranks third nationally, according to stationindex.com. Detroit ranks No. 11 and Indianapolis No. 25. The A-10 includes No. 1 New York, No. 4 Philadelphia and No. 9 Washington, D.C. Butler also would make regular trips to three others in the top 25: St. Louis (21), Pittsburgh (23) and Charlotte, N.C. (24). From a television contract standpoint, both the Horizon and A-10 appear on ESPN, but the A-10 also has a deal with CBS College Sports. » Recruiting: The points above make the A-10 a more attractive recruiting option. "The competition is at a higher level, and with the bigger markets, you're just seen by more people,'' said Jerry Meyer, basketball recruiting analyst for Rivals.com. "There's no question that playing in the A-10 would be much more appealing to recruits than playing in the Horizon League.'' Minuses » Travel: In the Horizon, the farthest trip for the Bulldogs is to Green Bay, a distance of 382 miles, according to mapquest .com. They have two other trips of more than 300 miles. In the A-10, 300 miles would feel like a leisure trip. Two schools, UMass and Rhode Island, are about 880 miles from Indianapolis. New York is 710, Richmond, Va., 653, Philadelphia 644 and Charlotte 625. The average trip in the Horizon is 248 miles. In the A-10, it will be more than 500, which would significantly increase expenses. » Alumni base: According to figures provided by the school, the A-10 would leave the Bulldogs without a conference rival in the area with the highest concentration of Butler's 44,000 alumni outside of Central Indiana: Chicago (5.1 percent). It would pick up visits to Washington, D.C. (1.7 percent) and the New York area (1.5 percent) but also leave Detroit (1.0 percent). Forty-three percent of Butler's alumni live in Central Indiana. » Fewer titles: Since 2000, Butler has been the top-ranked basketball team in the Horizon League in terms of Rating Percentage Index nine times. In those same nine seasons, however, the Bulldogs would have only topped the Atlantic 10 twice, and three times it would have ranked fourth. Neutral » Rivalries: Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis are within reasonable driving distances and would have significant potential as rivals. But it would be difficult to leave behind established rivalries with Valparaiso, Detroit and Wright State. __________________ BIG EAST CONFERENCE IN 2014-15 Butler • Creighton • Dayton • DePaul • Georgetown • Marquette Providence • Seton Hall • St. John’s • Saint Louis • Villanova • Xavier Last edited by Muddy Waters; 04-01-2012 at 07:53 AM.

04-01-2012, 08:33 AM	#156 (permalink)
RF1 Star Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,772 Rep Power: 12506	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 Your arguemnts about SLU and Dayton being closer to Indianapolis than Philadelphia make little overall sense to the conference as a whole. For most A-10 members, Butler is much further away than Temple. Last edited by RF1; 04-01-2012 at 09:17 AM.

04-01-2012, 09:08 AM	#157 (permalink)
MudFlap Star Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Victory Parkway Xavier University Posts: 3,644 Rep Power: 150436	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 At 600 mph, it works.

04-01-2012, 07:18 PM	#159 (permalink)
FXF57 Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 GM, Butler & VCU seem like good additions based on recent success, location, student population and other factors. However, Richmond is not such a big market as DC or Indiannapols. And we're already in Richmond. Instead of adding VCU, would it make sense to pick up ODU, which is in a metro area slightly larger than Richmond and also broadens the league footprint by moving into a new city, gaining access to more fans/viewers?

04-01-2012, 07:53 PM	#160 (permalink)
bostonspider Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 236 Rep Power: 1515	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 The problem with ODU is their football team. They definitely have plans to move up to FBS and hope to make the Alliance.

04-01-2012, 08:22 PM	#161 (permalink)
FXF57 Rookie Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 Thanks, Boston. Now I feel better about VCU.

04-01-2012, 08:43 PM	#162 (permalink)
MudFlap Star Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Victory Parkway Xavier University Posts: 3,644 Rep Power: 150436	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 nm

04-02-2012, 06:14 AM	#164 (permalink)
Muddy Waters All-Star Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Westmont Illinois Cemetery Age: 98 Posts: 5,288 Rep Power: 64500	Re: CBS Sports: VCU, George Mason, Butler in discussions to join Atlantic 10 http://gobonnies.com/sports/m-baskbl...s/teamcume.htm The Bonnies drew an average of 3926 fans per home game. http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities...sity/21/vr/gj/ St. Bonaventure has 2472 students. Attendance/enrolment ratio = 3926 / 2472 = 1.59 Excellent attendance/enrolment ratio, but not good enough to compensate for the fact that St. Bonaventure University is in Olean, and nobody wants the hassle of traveling to Olean to play in front of 3926 fans. __________________ BIG EAST CONFERENCE IN 2014-15 Butler • Creighton • Dayton • DePaul • Georgetown • Marquette Providence • Seton Hall • St. John’s • Saint Louis • Villanova • Xavier

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