What Have You Done For The A10 Lately? - Page 5 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

Free Quebec · 05-31-2012, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

For those that think this exercise has no basis in reality - you are not thinking. This exercise is about perception which is, by definition, subjective. That doesn't mean it's not important. It is very important when the conference negotiates its tv deal. It's very important when the conference tries to sell sponsors advertising space. The subjective bias in my perception is documented in my weighting system and, to some degree, explained in subsequent posts. If one tries to make too fine a judgment (for instance is Temple really second and Dayton third) based on the numbers then that is a mistake of their own making. The utility of the model is to identify groups of teams:

teams pulling their weight:

Xavier, Dayton, Temple, UR, SJU, URI and SLU

teams that need to more consistently perform

GW, UMass, Charlotte, and Duquesne

teams that need to do more than have one good season:

SBU, La Salle, and Fordham

No doubt GW sucked the last 5 years, but if you are talking about what a team has done over a 10-year time frame, you can't possibly lump GW in with UMASS, Charlotte, and the Dukes, none of whom have made the dance in your time frame, let alone rank them behind URI (0 NCAA appearances) or SLU (one NCAA appearance). I mean, GW was in the top 10 in the nation, made 3 NCAAs, won a game in the tourney, and went 16-0 in the league one year.

To be sure, I agree with the overall statement that they need to be more consistent, but so do URI and SLU and SJU.

Free Quebec · 05-31-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpschmack

Here's my point system:

NCAA Third Weekend: 500
NCAA Second Weekend: 250
NCAA Second Round: 150
NCAA First Round: 100

NIT Champs: 10
NIT Appearance: 5

20 Wins: 3
Winning Record: 1
Undefeated Regular Season: 100

200+ RPI: -5

Last 10 years (not counting C-USA seasons for SLU, Char)
Xavier: 1637
Temple: 588
St Joe's: 485
Richmond: 460
Dayton: 410
GW: 370
SLU: 158
Bona: 85
UMass: 33
URI: 32
LaSalle: 6
Charlotte: 6
Duquesne: -9
Fordham: -28

I think that's a more accurate assessment of where everyone has been.
The hardest team to slot is St. Joe's. Richmond's had more CONSISTENT NCAA tournament success. But the amount of positive pub SJU brought the A-10 by being #2 in the country cannot be understated. THE STORY on Selection Sunday was "Would St. Joe's get a #1 seed."

That has to be worth more than merely making the first round enough times to cover the difference.

Amen. This seems to make a lot more sense than the bizzarro system originally proposed. There are plenty of little quibbles, but this much more accurately reflects the notion of bringing credit to the league over a 10-year span, which is what this is supposed to measure.

For one thing, any system that suggest the Bonnies, who made the 2nd round of the tourney, has done less to bring credit to the league than Duquesne or URI or UMASS, who haven't sniffed the tourney in over a decade is just obviously worthless. Your system has fixed that fatal flaw in a fair way.

Let's face it, the goal of almost every team in the A-10 is to make the tourney, and then try to win a game (or more) when you get there. The way the league is measured is by NCAA bids, and by the occasional run in the tourney. Everything else is pretty much just noise so if you are trying to design a system like this to rank credit to the league, the overwhelming emphasis should be on making it to the dance, and winning once there.

mateer · 05-31-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplorerSteve

Agreed, he really thinks that he is funny.

Must run in the family.

antboy · 05-31-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Quebec

No doubt GW sucked the last 5 years, but if you are talking about what a team has done over a 10-year time frame, you can't possibly lump GW in with UMASS, Charlotte, and the Dukes, none of whom have made the dance in your time frame

None of whom have made the dance while in the A10........but Charlotte made the NCAA twice over that 10 year period. Just encouraging precision, since we're going back 10 years for everyone except for Charlotte and SLU to compare teams for some reason.

jpschmack · 05-31-2012, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

The ONLY good thing about SBU getting a bid last year was that it was one more bid for the A10.

One more bid for the league is a good thing. Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

It was a very, very negligible positive because the rest of the world saw it and thought less of the A10 precisely because SBU won the A10 tournament.

A) UMass admin won't think that when their split of the CBS check comes.
B) No, that's not the case at all. They all thought "F----------- one less spot for MY TEAM!"
C) It showed the league has plenty of competitive teams.

If you think Bona winning the A-10 tourney and holding their own vs Florida State wasn't good for the A-10, then I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

Outside of the A10 there are two types of college basketball fans: those who have no idea who SBU is and those who think of SBU as a perennial doormat. You may not like that but that's the reality outside of the A10 bubble - and really only the historic A10. People from Charlotte and Saint Louis and Richmond have no clue who SBU is or think they are a joke.

Hahaha. The perception of every team outside the "Power Six conferences" is that we're all "mid-majors" or "nobodies."

The only thing that changes that is ACTUALLY MAKING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT on a consistent basis and winning games for respect. Like Gonzaga, Xavier and Memphis have. Like St. Mary's and VCU are doing. Which is why going to the dance and losing is better than winning the NIT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

jpschmuck

Classy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

you really need to get a grip on reality.

Where's this coming from? Have I done something to offend you? Surely sliding one team from 13th to EIGHTH really can't have enraged you that much, did it?

Between this and the "Bona shouldn't be in the league" stuff from earlier, I'm wondering where the hate for the Bonnies comes from. Did Bob Lanier poop in your cornflakes?

Bill Russell · 05-31-2012, 04:04 PM

The guy's been like this for a long time, jpschmack, and I'd forgotten until recently. I'm finally at the point of ignoring his posts... and I don't even ignore Muddy's or Steve's! When someone disagrees with his broad generalities, '87 starts with the name calling.

z8-Minutemen · 05-31-2012, 04:30 PM

I agree with everyone that this is a terrible ranking system. However, '87 is right in his criticism of the Bonnies. They haven't done crap until last year. And you know what? They won't do it ever again unless another Nicholson falls into their lap. Bona will fade back into obscurity, being unknown by the national audience, and only remembered for the welding incident.

UMass' lack of success in the last decade is just as embarrassing as Bona's, I'll admit. However, our national perception is well ahead of Bona's. There are several reasons.
1. Football. The most popular sport in America. We now have D1 football, and the emergence of Victor Cruz last year really put us in the national spotlight.
2. State School. Our larger enrollment and alumni population adds to more exposure.
3. It sort of goes hand in hand with #2. People will recognize a state school. However, most of the people I've talked to have never heard of St. Bonaventure. And when I tell them about it, they usually get a good chuckle out of the goofy name.
4. Past success. UMass has Dr. J and Marcus Camby and a final four. Bona has, well, nothing...

jpschmack · 05-31-2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Russell

The guy's been like this for a long time, jpschmack, and I'd forgotten until recently. I'm finally at the point of ignoring his posts... and I don't even ignore Muddy's or Steve's! When someone disagrees with his broad generalities, '87 starts with the name calling.

Name-calling doesn't bother me

(on the baseball board I admin for, someone took umbrage with a deleted post claiming censorship cause the post talked bad about me as an admin. I replied with "it derailed the conversation off the topic. If you wanna talk about how much I suck, go ahead and make a thread called 'JP is ****face' for all I care." That was four years ago and my customized board rank has been "Long-Winded ****-Face" ever since).

I just don't want to get into a whole "Bona vs UMass" thing, because as much as I'd like to say stuff, the OTHER UMass fans will take exception and that's not the point.

The point to me is "How would we determine what each school has brought to the conference?" I think a formula/point system for the A-10 should be created using A DIFFERENT conference FIRST. If the point system results matches the perception of reality for, say, the CAA (which I think we could all agree would be 1. VCU, 2. GMU, 3-5 Hofstra/ODU/UNCW, etc), then we could see how the A-10 looks with it.

I don't like the point structure though, because (a) Bona's scandal DID hurt the league a lot (b) assigning proper credit to SJU's 30-2 season is difficult and (c) there's a huge difference between a team with zero NCAA bids that was screwed by the selection committee (2007-08) and won the NIT (2012) like UMass was and a team that has never realistically been on the bubble.

Bona84 · 05-31-2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpschmack

One more bid for the league is a good thing. Yes.

A) UMass admin won't think that when their split of the CBS check comes.
B) No, that's not the case at all. They all thought "F----------- one less spot for MY TEAM!"
C) It showed the league has plenty of competitive teams.

If you think Bona winning the A-10 tourney and holding their own vs Florida State wasn't good for the A-10, then I don't know what to tell you.

Hahaha. The perception of every team outside the "Power Six conferences" is that we're all "mid-majors" or "nobodies."

The only thing that changes that is ACTUALLY MAKING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT on a consistent basis and winning games for respect. Like Gonzaga, Xavier and Memphis have. Like St. Mary's and VCU are doing. Which is why going to the dance and losing is better than winning the NIT.

Classy.

Where's this coming from? Have I done something to offend you? Surely sliding one team from 13th to EIGHTH really can't have enraged you that much, did it?

Between this and the "Bona shouldn't be in the league" stuff from earlier, I'm wondering where the hate for the Bonnies comes from. Did Bob Lanier poop in your cornflakes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Russell

The guy's been like this for a long time, jpschmack, and I'd forgotten until recently. I'm finally at the point of ignoring his posts... and I don't even ignore Muddy's or Steve's! When someone disagrees with his broad generalities, '87 starts with the name calling.

Agreed, sometimes it's just not worth responding. He can bash Bona or other A-10 schools all he wants. But, without looking it up, other than the run Calipari had, the first couple of Bruiser years, and perhaps a couple of Dr. J years in the early 70s, perhaps he can explain what UMass has contributed to college basketball.

z8-Minutemen · 05-31-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bona84

Agreed, sometimes it's just not worth responding. He can bash Bona or other A-10 schools all he wants. But, without looking it up, other than the run Calipari had, the first couple of Bruiser years, and perhaps a couple of Dr. J years in the early 70s, perhaps he can explain what UMass has contributed to college basketball.

That's a shallow way to look at it.

Sure, other than the Steel Curtain in the 70's, and the 2 SB's in the last decade, what have the Steelers contributed to NFL football?

Other than the Staubach years in the 70's, and the dynasty in the 90's, what have the Cowboys contributed to NFL football?

That's a very dumb argument.

UMass87 · 05-31-2012, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Russell

The guy's been like this for a long time, jpschmack, and I'd forgotten until recently. I'm finally at the point of ignoring his posts... and I don't even ignore Muddy's or Steve's! When someone disagrees with his broad generalities, '87 starts with the name calling.

Where's the name calling in this thread? Pointing out that SBU is either unknown or known as a doormat outside of the A10?

jpschmack · 05-31-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z8-Minutemen

I agree with everyone that this is a terrible ranking system. However, '87 is right in his criticism of the Bonnies. They haven't done crap until last year. And you know what? They won't do it ever again unless another Nicholson falls into their lap. Bona will fade back into obscurity, being unknown by the national audience, and only remembered for the welding incident.

UMass' lack of success in the last decade is just as embarrassing as Bona's, I'll admit. However, our national perception is well ahead of Bona's. There are several reasons.
1. Football. The most popular sport in America. We now have D1 football, and the emergence of Victor Cruz last year really put us in the national spotlight.
2. State School. Our larger enrollment and alumni population adds to more exposure.
3. It sort of goes hand in hand with #2. People will recognize a state school. However, most of the people I've talked to have never heard of St. Bonaventure. And when I tell them about it, they usually get a good chuckle out of the goofy name.
4. Past success. UMass has Dr. J and Marcus Camby and a final four. Bona has, well, nothing...

Again, I don't want to get into a UMass vs Bona thing.

But I will discuss a common issue with a lot of this overall topic and a lot of what you said:

Time.

Every year that goes on, past acheivements mean less and less. I'll avoid obvious examples within the A-10 so as not to fire up the masses, but the fact is Perception matters for three reasons:

#1 - Recruiting. Notre Dame football isn't "Notre Dame Football" anymore, but they act like they're still the cornerstone program of all of NCAA football despite the fact that in this TV/Internet/Twitter age, no high school kid rememberswhen Notre Dame was a top 5 team.

#2 - TV Contracts. The perception matters for getting a network to pony up the dough for your inventory. In our petty A-10 squabbles, this means pretty much nothing as well*. Market Size is extremely important and it's not like any of us* have been such world beaters that...

#3 - Conference Realignment. Getting invited to a better league. Since we've really got no where to go** that's moot for almost all of us**

*-save Xavier and departing Temple.
**-save departing Charlotte and Temple and upgrading to FBS UMass.

jpschmack · 05-31-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

Where's the name calling in this thread? Pointing out that SBU is either unknown or known as a doormat outside of the A10?

How close together are the A and U keys on your keyboard?

AdamtheFlyer · 05-31-2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMass87

jpschmuck - you really need to get a grip on reality. The ONLY good thing about SBU getting a bid last year was that it was one more bid for the A10.

That's like saying the only good thing about Salma Hayek are her looks. That's a pretty damn good thing.

jpschmack's system is a lot better. I do think OOC wins, especially over quality BCS and Non-BCS opponents need to be in the formula. Temple beating Duke was huge. All of Xavier's wins are huge. Dayton has consistently beaten really strong opponents OOC. Heck, Rhody even had a year where they were ranked in the top 25 briefly due to a great OOC run. That is adding to the positive perception of the league. St Joe and Richmond as well. The GW domination years didn't see a lot of big OOC wins, but they got in the top 10 at one time, I believe. That's good stuff.

I would rank NCAA berths and wins higher than anything else, but I'd definitely give big OOC wins more than NIT berths/wins. Big OOC wins lead to NCAA spots, both directly and indirectly. NIT wins, not so much. Entering the Coaches and/or AP poll should be quantified as well.

DukesDan · 05-31-2012, 06:20 PM

I haven't read this whole thread but I am just curious about one thing. How many posts did it take before z8 got in a heated exchange with another poster?

My take on the Umass-St. Bonaventure differences is this: Umass had glory years. St. Bonaventure had glory years. Biggest difference is that the Bonnies best years were 4 decades ago and Umass' were almost 2 decades ago. Neither had done much since on the national scene.

05-31-2012, 04:04 PM	#66 (permalink)
Bill Russell Veteran Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,836 Rep Power: 34346	Re: What Have You Done For The A10 Lately? The guy's been like this for a long time, jpschmack, and I'd forgotten until recently. I'm finally at the point of ignoring his posts... and I don't even ignore Muddy's or Steve's! When someone disagrees with his broad generalities, '87 starts with the name calling. __________________ www.bonaalumni.com

05-31-2012, 04:30 PM	#67 (permalink)
z8-Minutemen Player Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 631 Rep Power: 153363	Re: What Have You Done For The A10 Lately? I agree with everyone that this is a terrible ranking system. However, '87 is right in his criticism of the Bonnies. They haven't done crap until last year. And you know what? They won't do it ever again unless another Nicholson falls into their lap. Bona will fade back into obscurity, being unknown by the national audience, and only remembered for the welding incident. UMass' lack of success in the last decade is just as embarrassing as Bona's, I'll admit. However, our national perception is well ahead of Bona's. There are several reasons. 1. Football. The most popular sport in America. We now have D1 football, and the emergence of Victor Cruz last year really put us in the national spotlight. 2. State School. Our larger enrollment and alumni population adds to more exposure. 3. It sort of goes hand in hand with #2. People will recognize a state school. However, most of the people I've talked to have never heard of St. Bonaventure. And when I tell them about it, they usually get a good chuckle out of the goofy name. 4. Past success. UMass has Dr. J and Marcus Camby and a final four. Bona has, well, nothing... __________________ Dallas Cowboys- 5 super bowls and counting... UMass Minutemen- 8 tournament appearances, 1 final four. Alumni: Julius 'Dr. J' Erving, Marcus Camby Northeastern Huskies- 7 tournament appearances. Alumni: Reggie Lewis, Jose Juan 'JJ' Barea

05-31-2012, 06:20 PM	#75 (permalink)
DukesDan Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,135 Rep Power: 15970	Re: What Have You Done For The A10 Lately? I haven't read this whole thread but I am just curious about one thing. How many posts did it take before z8 got in a heated exchange with another poster? My take on the Umass-St. Bonaventure differences is this: Umass had glory years. St. Bonaventure had glory years. Biggest difference is that the Bonnies best years were 4 decades ago and Umass' were almost 2 decades ago. Neither had done much since on the national scene. __________________ Duquesne Dukes: 2012 A10 tournament qualifier!! 2012-2013 Locks of the Day TBA 2011-2012 Locks of the Day NIT participant 29-26-0...... .527 2010-2011 Locks of the Day Regular Season Champion 31-20-4 ..... .600 #15 Cooper #11 Green #10 Nixon #12 Ricketts #24 Somerset

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