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Old 06-19-2012, 05:53 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
Can you teach dribbling skills at the NBA level? Serious question, how much can CJ improve his dribbling w/ pro coaching? Its obviously a weakness in his game, but he gives you a couple of things that I think appeal to an NBA team looking at a developmental kid in the mid to late 2nd round or as a college free agent.
Trick question: so long as it looks cool you don't need to dribble in the NBA.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by xu95 View Post
Last I checked Ramone Moore played all of his games while Temple was a member of the A-10.
Temple C Micheal Eric has also made rounds to several teams including the Thunder. I dont know if he'll get drafted, but god knows there are much worse centers in the NBA.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:32 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft


For those of you who don’t keep up with these things, the value of Tu Holloway’s stock in the NBA Draft just plummeted with this announcement:


NBA Competition Committee Discusses Postgame Flopping Penalties (Yahoo! - June 18, 2012)

To some NBA fans, flopping is a scourge upon the NBA. Like pump-faking or playing with other superstars, it degrades the ideals of competition on which sport is founded. If the NBA wants to be taken seriously and move beyond record ratings, they must do something drastic.

Luckily, David Stern and his handpicked competition committee are meeting this week to discuss potential fixes. On Monday, they talked specifically about how to hand out punishments after games. From Brian Mahoney for the Associated Press:
Quote:
The NBA commissioner believes too many players are deceiving referees into calling fouls by falling down, or flopping. So he and the league's newly reformed competition committee met Monday for a discussion about how it can be prevented.

One option, Stern said, is a ''postgame analysis'' in which a player could be penalized if it was determined he flopped. The league retroactively upgrades or downgrades flagrant fouls after review, and along those lines he said that perhaps a player could receive a message from New York saying: ''Greetings from the league office. You have been assigned flopper status.''

''No, I'm joking, but something like that,'' Stern said. ''That sort of lets people know that it's not enough to say 'it's all part of the game.'''
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingElvis - Post # 22 View Post

Holloway made a living in college by throwing a shoulder into his defender once he got him off balance and then going to the line.
Indeed. Holloway also led the Atlantic 10 in flopping last season.


2011-12 Atlantic 10 Individual Stats – Sorted by Free Throws Attempted (Yahoo!)

Code:

                                        Games  Free Throws 
Rank  Player	      Team	   Played  Attempted				

 1.   Tu Holloway	      Xavier           28       7.6

 2.   Khalif Wyatt      Temple           29       5.7
 3.   Chaz Williams     Massachusetts    30       5.6
 4.   Carl Jones        St. Joseph's     30       5.5
 5T.  Chris Gaston      Fordham          28       5.4
 5T.  Brian Conklin     Saint Louis      30       5.4
 7T.  Chris Braswell    Charlotte        28       5.3
 7T.  Jamal Wilson      Rhode Island     11       5.3
 9.   Andrew Nicholson  St. Bonaventure  28       4.9
10.   Derrick Williams  Richmond         31       4.8

In 2010-11, junior Tu Holloway led the Atlantic with an amazing 8.4 FT attempts per game.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingElvis - Post # 22 View Post

In the NBA, the level of athlete defending him would make that a lot harder.

I think you saw that in college when he had a big athlete with quickness guarding him and when the whistle was a lot slower, like on some occasions when X played UC.

An astute and accurate observation, FlyingElvis.

This observation, coupled with vaNtR’s observation below and the fact that the NBA is going to crack down on the type of nonsense we saw from Tu Holloway for four seasons means that "Tu Holloway" won’t be among the 60 names announced during the NBA Draft Show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vaNtR - Post # 30 View Post

Tu Holloway has a chance, but I still don't see his game translating well to the NBA.

He doesn't have the ideal height or athleticism to make an impact on the next level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xavierhoops - Post # 24 View Post

Here are the stats. Johnson has a better percentage

Code:
2011-12  Tu   Johnson

FG%     .429   .465
3PT%    .346   .397
FT%     .862   .859
Indeed.

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Old 06-20-2012, 04:49 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

The obsession continues...
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:40 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
I see no reason to dissparge TU to make CJ look better,
Good luck with that one. Envy is very difficult to overcome.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:14 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft


FWIW:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ramone Moore (NBA Draft.net Profile)




Ramone Moore is reported to be 6'-5" (in shoes), 188 lbs., with "great length" for a 6'-4" guard. No confirmed measurements.

Overall Score: 88

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Johnson (NBA Draft.net Profile)




Chris Johnson measured 6'-5" (in shoes), 194 lbs., with a 6'-9" wingspan at the 2011 Kevin Durant Skills Academy.

Overall Score: 87

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tu Holloway (NBA Draft.net Profile)




Tu Holloway measured 5'-11" (in shoes), 185 lbs., with a 6'-6" wingspan at the 2011 Deron Williams Skills Academy.

Overall Score: 86


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Old 06-20-2012, 06:27 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

I didn't realize the A-10 kept a flopping stat. I think it is funny that "lowering your shoulder" into someone who is off balance is compared to flopping. The two are actually the exact opposite.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:52 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by xu95 View Post

I think it is funny that "lowering your shoulder" into someone who is off balance is compared to flopping.
Holloway "lowers his shoulder" into his opponent when he is driving with the ball, and thus commits offensive fouls which are frequently and mistakenly called as defensive fouls on Holloway's defender.

Holloway "flops" when his opponent is driving with the ball, and thus fools the referee into calling a charging foul on the player that Holloway is trying to defending against.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xu95 View Post

The two are actually the exact opposite.
Indeed.

"Lowering one's shoulder" is a charging foul - an offensive foul.

"Flopping" is fooling the referee into calling an offensive foul on the player that Holloway is guarding.

Holloway is adept at both against Atlantic 10 opponents, but won't get away with it against NBA opponents, as FlyingElvis pointed out above.


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Old 06-20-2012, 07:03 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

I can count on 1 hand the number of charges Holloway took. Not a part of his game. Attacking a poor defender when they are out of position is a skill. John Stockton got thousands of points with all kinds of craziness while he had the ball in his hands. Tu Holloway was a genius with the ball. Bunch of sour grapes, as usual.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:17 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by A10fan2 View Post
Chances of making it in the NBA as a 2 guard that CAN'T dribble is far more remote than a 6' pg. Sato could shoot and rebound very well but he couldn't handle the ball. Thus he is off to a nice career in Europe
Thabo Sefolosha is a 2 guard that can't shoot, and he's got a nice career going. JJ Redick can't dribble and he was a lottery pick.

The NBA is less about what you can't do, and more about catching on with a team who loves what you can do. Sato was picked up by the Spurs. They didn't have much room, and thus, he was cut, and went to Europe and has had a great career overseas. Had he been drafted by the Raptors or Clippers, he may well have stuck around and who knows what happens.

I don't know if people watch the NBA very often, but there aren't too many SGs actually breaking down a defender off the dribble. If every team has three SGs on the roster, perhaps one handles it more than in transition.

Chris Johnson has a chance to be drafted and stick around because he has tools that every NBA team looks for. He can knock down a spot up three and rebound at a high level, and he has the speed and ability to run out and finish in transition. Now, there are about 20 other second round level guys who can do it and about 8 may get picked, so for him it's about killing it in his workouts. In tweets I have seen from scouts, he's rumored to be doing just that. He's got a chance.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:29 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

Adam, Sefolosha is a lock down defender. He isn't in the game to do anything but play D. If CJ could defend like him then I would say he had a really good shot but he can't. JJ Redick was an offensive machine. Comparing him to CJ is laughable at best. I know you weren't comparing them skills wise but those are 2 bad examples. CJ has a shot a being a niche player but it has to be a "perfect storm" for him to make it. I would put Holloway in the same boat.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:36 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
Holloway "lowers his shoulder" into his opponent when he is driving with the ball, and thus commits offensive fouls which are frequently and mistakenly called as defensive fouls on Holloway's defender.

Holloway "flops" when his opponent is driving with the ball, and thus fools the referee into calling a charging foul on the player that Holloway is trying to defending against.


"Lowering one's shoulder" is a charging foul - an offensive foul.

"Flopping" is fooling the referee into calling an offensive foul on the player that Holloway is guarding.

Holloway is adept at both against Atlantic 10 opponents, but won't get away with it against NBA opponents, as FlyingElvis pointed out above.
What????? FlyingElivs talked about how Tu wouldn't be able to draw contact as easily in the NBA and get to the line which was a big part of his game. As xu95 mentioned, flopping is the exact opposite of this. "Flopping" is a defensive technique (taking a charge is rarely something I saw Tu do) and driving to the basket to draw a foul is an offensive technique.

Somehow, Muddy got these two opposite things muddled up and thought he could relate the latest Yahoo article on the NBA to Tu Holloway in a negative way.

So the options to classify Muddy's posts this morning: he's either he's lying, or he's baiting. That's not insulting to another poster, just the factual options from the content of his posts. Take your pick, FlyingElivs.

Last edited by EpicFailGuy; 06-20-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:49 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by A10fan2 View Post
Adam, Sefolosha is a lock down defender. He isn't in the game to do anything but play D. If CJ could defend like him then I would say he had a really good shot but he can't. JJ Redick was an offensive machine. Comparing him to CJ is laughable at best. I know you weren't comparing them skills wise but those are 2 bad examples. CJ has a shot a being a niche player but it has to be a "perfect storm" for him to make it. I would put Holloway in the same boat.
My point was, there is no magic formula to making it in the NBA as a second round pick (or undrafted). It's about convincing the right team that you have a useful skill to help them win. Every player in the second round has legit weaknesses, or they would be projected in the first round.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:52 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
What????? FlyingElivs talked about how Tu wouldn't be able to draw contact as easily in the NBA and get to the line which was a big part of his game. As xu95 mentioned, flopping is the exact opposite of this. "Flopping" is a defensive technique (taking a charge is rarely something I saw Tu do) and driving to the basket to draw a foul is an offensive technique.

Somehow, Muddy got these two opposite things muddled up and thought he could relate the latest Yahoo article on the NBA to Tu Holloway in a negative way.

So the options to classify Muddy's posts this morning: he's either really dumb, he's lying, or he's baiting. That's not insulting to another poster, just the factual options from the content of his posts. Take your pick, FlyingElivs.
Offensive players flop all the time. You think Wade ends up on the ground 50 times a game because he actually gets knocked to the ground? Of course not, he flops around every time a defender is within 3 feet of him.

Tu Holloway did make a living flopping in college. Reasonable minds really can't disagree with that. But that's not his fault, he got the calls. It's the refs who need to police it out of the game. If a player knows he can get to the FT line by driving and wiggling while yelling "ahhhhhh", well, he's going to spend all game doing just that, if he's smart. Dillard does it, too. I hate that it's such a big part of the game, but it's a big part of the game. When in Rome...
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: 2012 NBA Draft

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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
Not really.

Temple has joined the Big East, and Tool Holloway is a thug who was suspended by Xavier for his part in the Skyline Chili Punch-out.



Please stop stalking me and harasing me.

Muddy, I'm sorry but this is appalling.

Temple was in the A-10 last year, and Tu really didn't play a part in the fight.

Stop telling people to stop harassing and stalking you. YOU made this thread, and they responded properly. They pointed out a glaring mistake from your post, that's not stalking or harassing. You were clearly baiting and got the response you wanted.
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