2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers - Page 26 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

SpiderDave19 · 09-17-2012, 05:04 AM

As for 75's question about one and done's going to class in the spring, the answer is no, they have no real personal incentive to attend one class in the spring semester. They need to remain eligible through the first semester, and obviously the season is over by the time grades come out again.

However, the school needs them to go to class for APR reasons. And at Kentucky, for one, they've managed to make that happen. That's how Kentucky maintains an acceptable APR, and that's where UConn failed. The misconception about the APR is that guys leaving early hurt your rating, but that's not the case. They only hurt you if they leave in poor academic standing.

Muddy Waters · 09-17-2012, 05:06 AM

Comin' down the tracks . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xavier Musketeers 2012-13 Non-Conference Schedule (Xavier University)

Code:

                                                      Final 2012    Predicted              
Date       Opponent              Location             RPI Ranking     Result
 
11/09/12   Fairleigh Dickinson   Cincinnati, Ohio       # 330          WIN 
11/13/12   Butler                Cincinnati, Ohio       # 106          LOSS          
11/17/12   Robert Morris         Cincinnati, Ohio       #  97          LOSS 

Anaheim Classic                  Anaheim, Calif. 
     
11/22/12  Pacific                Anaheim, Calif.        # 289          WIN   
11/23/12  Drexel or St. Mary's   Anaheim, Calif.     # 66 or # 30      LOSS  
11/25/12  Rice or Drake*         Anaheim, Calif.                       WIN                    

* Possible Round 3 Opponents:    Rice                   # 164 
                                 Georgia Tech           # 196
                                 Drake                  # 142
                                 California             #  45

12/01/12   @ Purdue              West Lafayette, Ind.   #  43          LOSS
12/06/12   Vanderbilt            Cincinnati, Ohio       #  17          LOSS 
12/09/12   Kent State            Cincinnati, Ohio       # 114          LOSS  
12/19/12   Cincinnati            Cincinnati, Ohio       #  35          LOSS 
12/22/12   Wofford               Cincinnati, Ohio       # 178          WIN  
12/29/12   @ Tennessee           Knoxville, Tenn        #  90          LOSS

01/02/13   @ Wake Forest         Winston Salem, NC      # 182          LOSS  

02/26/13   Memphis               Cincinnati, Ohio       #  20          LOSS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muddy's Observations:

(1) If the predictions above are correct, Xavier's Non-conference W-L Record will be 4-10.

(2) If Xavier beats Robert Morris or Kent State, that improves to 5-9.

(3) If Xavier beats Robert Morris and Kent State, that improves to 6-8.

(4) It is assumed that Georgia Tech will beat Rice in the First Round at Anaheim.

(5) It is assumed that California will beat Drake in the First Round at Anaheim.

Flyer75 · 09-17-2012, 05:11 AM

Thanks spider for that answer. I wasn't sure how the APR worked.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using VerticalSports.Com App

Muddy Waters · 09-17-2012, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on August 22, 2012

If Xavier loses any more players, they will be at risk of missing the first-ever A10 Tournment at Barclays Center in March.

Only 12 of the A10's 16 teams will be playing in the inaugural event.

On September 14, 2012, Xavier lost Myles Davis and Jalen Reynolds for the 2012-13 season, leaving Chris Mack with only 8 scholarshipped players on his Roster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on September 17, 2012

Muddy’s Predictions – Rev. 1 – September 17, 2012

Predictions of the outcomes of A10 Conference games are necessarily based on a preconceived perception of a Predicted Order of Finish, taking into consideration the location of the game (home, neutral or away) and factoring in the match-ups (strengths and weaknesses at each position) of the individual players on the teams concerned.

For the purpose of predicting the Flyers’ individual A10 game results, I will be assuming the following:

Atlantic 10 Predicted Order of Finish - Rev. 1:

1. Virginia Commonwealth
2. Dayton
3. St. Joseph's
4. Saint Louis
5. UMass
6. Butler
7. Temple
8. Richmond
9. La Salle
10. St. Bonaventure
11. George Washington
12. Rhode Island

13. Xavier
14. Charlotte
15. Fordham
16. Duquesne

Xavier Musketeers 2012-13 Atlantic 10 Conference Schedule (Xavier University)

Code:

                                                       Predicted              
Date       Opponent              Location                Result
 
01/10/13   Temple                Cincinnati, Ohio        LOSS                        
01/12/13   George Washington     Cincinnati, Ohio        WIN
01/16/13   @ St. Bonaventure     Olean, NY               LOSS  
01/19/13   La Salle              Cincinnati, Ohio        WIN  
01/23/13   @ Charlotte           Charlotte, NC           LOSS
01/26/13   @ Saint Joseph's      Philadelphia, PA        LOSS  
01/30/13   Dayton                Cincinnati, Ohio        LOSS 

02/02/13   @ Richmond            Richmond, Va.           LOSS 
02/09/13   @ Duquesne            Pittsburgh, PA          WIN 
02/13/13   Fordham               Cincinnati, Ohio        WIN
02/16/13   @ Dayton              Dayton, OH              LOSS
02/20/13   @ Rhode Island        Kingston, RI            LOSS
02/23/13   VCU                   Cincinnati, Ohio        LOSS

03/02/13   Massachusetts         Cincinnati, Ohio        LOSS
03/06/13   Saint Louis           Cincinnati, Ohio        LOSS
03/09/13   @ Butler              Indianapolis, IN        LOSS

Muddy's Observation: If the predictions above are correct, Xavier's Atlantic 10 Conference W-L Record will be 4-12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stophorseabuse on September 13, 2012

I am going to come out and say I think X wins fewer than 10 games total this year.

I think it will be the most brutal year I have witnessed as an X fan.

I see us getting crushed by our rivals, and missing Brooklyn.

I am not out of touch with reality. This team has nothing beyond inexperienced talent.

Rough year coming.

After having a closer look at Xavier’s schedule, I agree with you.

MudFlap · 09-17-2012, 07:30 AM

blahblHBLAH X Blahblahblah X blahblah UD blah blah blah hi school stats blah blah nobody has played yet blahblahblah.... 'nother weekend wasted googling baloney blahblah

antboy · 09-17-2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xudash

Let's tighten that up a little bit. The quid pro quo in all this is to respect the student-athlete model - provide focus and resources for these athletes to allow them the opportunity to receive an education while they wow their adoring fans. It isn't about race. It isn't about demographics, per se. Everyone here probably knows or knows of a kid that entered their alma mater as a somewhat scared, shy student who, at that time, couldn't fathom having to engage in public speaking, only to graduate later, with confidence, a plan and total comfort with a microphone and podium.

That aspect of all this is the good part of the story. The idea that some kids get a chance they otherwise would never see. They get it because they have an athletic gift. It's when they maximize the opportunity - achieving on the court while working towards and completing their degree obligations - that we can say the system isn't perfect, but it can be made to work, assuming everyone hold up their end of the bargain.

I've long thought that universities should get out of the business of high profile athletics, if they really care about their academic mission of educating students, despite the fact that I enjoy watching those sports. Just look at Chapel Hill, how much does their scandalous behavior towards athletes cheapen the degrees of others who legitimately became educated? Would they really be offering fake classes and paying student tutors to do people's work if they just had intramural or non-scholarship sports?

The other side of your story is that the athlete takes the spot of another student. Sure, the athletes sometimes make amazing progress in school, but isn't it more likely that the last student not admitted would have achieved success? I really think that many of the athletes who are also good students would be in school anyway, and the rest of the noble student-athlete fairy tale in the high profile sports is just a way to sugar coat an ugly pursuit of money at all costs.

Seems like schools should either a) only admit players that otherwise meet their academic requirements, b) eliminate scholarship sports, or c) run semi-professional teams with their name on it in which the players aren't expected to be students (many schools are close to doing this anyway).

xudash · 09-17-2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antboy

I've long thought that universities should get out of the business of high profile athletics, if they really care about their academic mission of educating students, despite the fact that I enjoy watching those sports. Just look at Chapel Hill, how much does their scandalous behavior towards athletes cheapen the degrees of others who legitimately became educated? Would they really be offering fake classes and paying student tutors to do people's work if they just had intramural or non-scholarship sports?

The other side of your story is that the athlete takes the spot of another student. Sure, the athletes sometimes make amazing progress in school, but isn't it more likely that the last student not admitted would have achieved success? I really think that many of the athletes who are also good students would be in school anyway, and the rest of the noble student-athlete fairy tale in the high profile sports is just a way to sugar coat an ugly pursuit of money at all costs.

Seems like schools should either a) only admit players that otherwise meet their academic requirements, b) eliminate scholarship sports, or c) run semi-professional teams with their name on it in which the players aren't expected to be students (many schools are close to doing this anyway).

I can't argue with your position. In fact, it is very fair to point out that someone else loses when one of these finite seats at a university is taken by an athlete. The degree of "loss" may be debatable, as the person that lost a seat at a particular school would most likely land on their feat and do fine at a second or third choice of schools for them.

You said it all when you suggested that universities should "get out of the business of high profile athletics." Yet we all know that isn't happening; the dollars and marketing exposure are way to lucrative.

antboy · 09-17-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xudash

I can't argue with your position. In fact, it is very fair to point out that someone else loses when one of these finite seats at a university is taken by an athlete. The degree of "loss" may be debatable, as the person that lost a seat at a particular school would most likely land on their feat and do fine at a second or third choice of schools for them.

You said it all when you suggested that universities should "get out of the business of high profile athletics." Yet we all know that isn't happening; the dollars and marketing exposure are way to lucrative.

I agree, at this point it's not going to happen given how much money is at stake and who benefits from it (read: people with the power to make changes). Answer c) above might happen if schools decide to exit the NCAA for football and set up their own rules, but I think they probably do get some kind of benefit from at least pretending to care about athletes' educations.

xudash · 09-17-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antboy

I agree, at this point it's not going to happen given how much money is at stake and who benefits from it (read: people with the power to make changes). Answer c) above might happen if schools decide to exit the NCAA for football and set up their own rules, but I think they probably do get some kind of benefit from at least pretending to care about athletes' educations.

It's funny you mentioned the football schools exiting, because I see that happening eventually.

Basically, taking ND or FSU as a couple examples of teams that are in the ACC, which means they're not in one of the Big4, what probably results is that they take football out of the ACC and put it into one of the Big4, depending upon which of the Big4 invite them. Exit fee? What exit fee? They would not exit the conference; they would just take football out of it. I know, I know, you would think the language in the conference agreement would stipulate all-sports. I doubt a contract will override a life and death decision at that point, and perhaps they could countersue the ACC for damages IF it goes in this direction - unfair restrictions, etc.

Suffice it to say that the 4 x 16 structure is a clearly favored direction by the power players. With "4" as the number of conferences, it is expected that each will go 2 x 8 to create the symmetry needed to keep the regular season valid, while flowing the play-off process into the 4/2/1 structure they recently cooked up.

I don't want to hijack this thread, turning into a realignment thread, but maybe this helps basketball and other sports when this finally happens, because, when if and when it happens, the football schools will have essentially kicked the NCAA's teeth in. Not so much financially, as the BCS already has taken over much of the finance in college football. The NCAA loses it's teeth by being told to pound salt. No more governance, etc.

The NCAA will still be big business thanks to the hoops television contracts, but perhaps the shock of the loss of a big chunk of their governance will make them more consistent.

**a10nick** · 09-17-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xudash

It's funny you mentioned the football schools exiting, because I see that happening eventually.

Basically, taking ND or FSU as a couple examples of teams that are in the ACC, which means they're not in one of the Big4, what probably results is that they take football out of the ACC and put it into one of the Big4, depending upon which of the Big4 invite them. Exit fee? What exit fee? They would not exit the conference; they would just take football out of it. I know, I know, you would think the language in the conference agreement would stipulate all-sports. I doubt a contract will override a life and death decision at that point, and perhaps they could countersue the ACC for damages IF it goes in this direction - unfair restrictions, etc.

Suffice it to say that the 4 x 16 structure is a clearly favored direction by the power players. With "4" as the number of conferences, it is expected that each will go 2 x 8 to create the symmetry needed to keep the regular season valid, while flowing the play-off process into the 4/2/1 structure they recently cooked up.

I don't want to hijack this thread, turning into a realignment thread, but maybe this helps basketball and other sports when this finally happens, because, when if and when it happens, the football schools will have essentially kicked the NCAA's teeth in. Not so much financially, as the BCS already has taken over much of the finance in college football. The NCAA loses it's teeth by being told to pound salt. No more governance, etc.

The NCAA will still be big business thanks to the hoops television contracts, but perhaps the shock of the loss of a big chunk of their governance will make them more consistent.

Dash,

With the NCAA so despised because of its arbitrary and inefficient "policing" of its members, do you know of anybody discussing the possibility of further gutting the NCAA by doing something similar for basketball. In other words, what if the administrative wing of the soon-to-be entity comprised of the 4x16 bunch were to be approached by the Big East, ACC, CAA, A-10, Missouri Valley, Mountain West, West Coast Conference, and the like (or some combination of those Conferences' members) to ask permission to be governed by their body; share in none of the football talks, money, etc; but compete under their umbrella in all other sports (with the one proviso being that the other sports, especially basketball, baseball, volleyball, and perhaps hockey, compete for National Championships with the 64 FB members that comprise their core?

Perhaps there could be an interim period of adjustment when these non-BCS type Conferences with some members traditionally being extremely competitive in other sports (such as basketball, baseball, etc.) could join together and create their own versions of Super Bowls in those non-Football sports whereby their champion in BB, Volleyball, etc. would play the Big Football groups' champion in those sports. Over a period of time, if such a plan worked, they could possibly come together under one set of leadership.

I realize that there would be some substantial intrinsic problems involved, but if the football $'s were kept separate, such a plan might put so much pressure on the NCAA that it might actually come down from its ivory tower and clean up its act.

AdamtheFlyer · 09-17-2012, 04:08 PM

We get NCAA hate shoved down our throats by coaches and sycophantic media, people who have no say and only their own interests at stake, that people lose sight of just who runs the NCAA...the schools do! The schools are not going anywhere.

NCAA cracks me up. There is almost always more to the story. Like, say, how Notre Dame Prep and its students (players) knew those classes may end up red flagged before they took them (talk to the right people, this is 100% true). They had time to go elsewhere and get the needed credits. They chose to stay. Red flags don't just happen, there are months/years of work that goes into it, and the schools are kept informed of every step in the process. And then there are months of work that go into the process from red flag to the decision that the credits aren't valid. Daddy Cassell and Daddy Davis won't mention that, and nor will jock sniffers like Goodman. Protect the narrative. The evil guys upstairs did it!

MudFlap · 09-17-2012, 04:37 PM

"Eight of his teammates who attended the exact same classes that year were deemed qualifiers and played last season: Todd Mayo (Marquette), Angel Nunez (Louisville), Khem Birch (Pittsburgh -- now at UNLV), Grandy Glaze (Saint Louis), Zarko Valijarevic (Maine), Luka Radovic (South Carolina State), Devon McMillan (Fordham) and Jeff Short (Fordham)."

Yeah, Seems fair.

paulxu · 09-17-2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamtheFlyer

They had time to go elsewhere and get the needed credits. They chose to stay.

Adam, how would this practically work? Sometime in the summer they let Davis know that courses he's going to take might not be good...so then he scrambles around and tries to find a new school?

I'm confused about how he supposedly took these courses with guys who were freshmen in college last season and played Div 1 ball...which would mean he took them as a junior. Didn't know he was at Notre Dame prep for 2 years, but maybe.

But that school is not some brand new diploma mill if Swampy Meadows graduated from there decades ago. It's all very, very bizarre.

Flyer75 · 09-17-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MudFlap

"Eight of his teammates who attended the exact same classes that year were deemed qualifiers and played last season: Todd Mayo (Marquette), Angel Nunez (Louisville), Khem Birch (Pittsburgh -- now at UNLV), Grandy Glaze (Saint Louis), Zarko Valijarevic (Maine), Luka Radovic (South Carolina State), Devon McMillan (Fordham) and Jeff Short (Fordham)."

Yeah, Seems fair.

I see what you're saying, but have X fans ever considered that maybe, just maybe Davis and Cassell messed up pretty bad at their OTHER high school(s). Also, of those 8, and I don't know the answer to this, how many were there for grade issues? Staten went to Oak Hill and it didn't have anything to do with grades. Same with Justin Bibbs.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using VerticalSports.Com App

AdamtheFlyer · 09-17-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulxu

Adam, how would this practically work? Sometime in the summer they let Davis know that courses he's going to take might not be good...so then he scrambles around and tries to find a new school?

I'm confused about how he supposedly took these courses with guys who were freshmen in college last season and played Div 1 ball...which would mean he took them as a junior. Didn't know he was at Notre Dame prep for 2 years, but maybe.

But that school is not some brand new diploma mill if Swampy Meadows graduated from there decades ago. It's all very, very bizarre.

Notre Dame used to be a regular private high school. Over time enrollment declined, so they transitioned into a prep school. I believe this is the story.

Davis was at Notre Dame for at least 2 years. This is not something that popped up recently. This is not something the NCAA just sprung on the kids without notice. It is my understanding that the NCAA was looking into all prep schools for a while, and let Notre Dame Prep know they were being scrutinized a little more than others, including specific courses being reviewed. The official "red flag" came down in November of last year, I believe. These things take time, so you can guarantee the NCAA and the school were in communication long before this. The kids in the class prior got very lucky, as did every kid in 2009, 2008, 2007...

The point is, none of this is as presented in the CBS stories quoting the player's fathers. The "NCAA is evil" narrative is misguided all over, but especially here. Cassell and Davis are victims of bad timing, and either their own decision to stay, or a lack of communication from Notre Dame itself (I do not know what they were told by the school, obviously).

Would people be happier if the NCAA went back and retroactively declared all those kids ineligible? I don't know what people want. You can't grandfather a kid because of timing. That wouldn't be fair to other kids declared ineligible for similar reasons.

It's a crappy situation, but the blame should not be put on the NCAA. The bulk of the blame should go on Notre Dame prep, for not giving their students the proper college prep education they were promised.

09-17-2012, 05:04 AM	#376 (permalink)
SpiderDave19 Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 912 Rep Power: 48590	Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers As for 75's question about one and done's going to class in the spring, the answer is no, they have no real personal incentive to attend one class in the spring semester. They need to remain eligible through the first semester, and obviously the season is over by the time grades come out again. However, the school needs them to go to class for APR reasons. And at Kentucky, for one, they've managed to make that happen. That's how Kentucky maintains an acceptable APR, and that's where UConn failed. The misconception about the APR is that guys leaving early hurt your rating, but that's not the case. They only hurt you if they leave in poor academic standing.

09-17-2012, 05:06 AM	#377 (permalink)
Muddy Waters All-Star Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Westmont Illinois Cemetery Age: 98 Posts: 5,291 Rep Power: 64500	Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers Comin' down the tracks . . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xavier Musketeers 2012-13 Non-Conference Schedule (Xavier University) Code: Final 2012 Predicted Date Opponent Location RPI Ranking Result 11/09/12 Fairleigh Dickinson Cincinnati, Ohio # 330 WIN 11/13/12 Butler Cincinnati, Ohio # 106 LOSS 11/17/12 Robert Morris Cincinnati, Ohio # 97 LOSS Anaheim Classic Anaheim, Calif. 11/22/12 Pacific Anaheim, Calif. # 289 WIN 11/23/12 Drexel or St. Mary's Anaheim, Calif. # 66 or # 30 LOSS 11/25/12 Rice or Drake* Anaheim, Calif. WIN * Possible Round 3 Opponents: Rice # 164 Georgia Tech # 196 Drake # 142 California # 45 12/01/12 @ Purdue West Lafayette, Ind. # 43 LOSS 12/06/12 Vanderbilt Cincinnati, Ohio # 17 LOSS 12/09/12 Kent State Cincinnati, Ohio # 114 LOSS 12/19/12 Cincinnati Cincinnati, Ohio # 35 LOSS 12/22/12 Wofford Cincinnati, Ohio # 178 WIN 12/29/12 @ Tennessee Knoxville, Tenn # 90 LOSS 01/02/13 @ Wake Forest Winston Salem, NC # 182 LOSS 02/26/13 Memphis Cincinnati, Ohio # 20 LOSS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Muddy's Observations: (1) If the predictions above are correct, Xavier's Non-conference W-L Record will be 4-10. (2) If Xavier beats Robert Morris or Kent State, that improves to 5-9. (3) If Xavier beats Robert Morris and Kent State, that improves to 6-8. (4) It is assumed that Georgia Tech will beat Rice in the First Round at Anaheim. (5) It is assumed that California will beat Drake in the First Round at Anaheim. __________________ BIG EAST CONFERENCE IN 2014-15 Butler • Creighton • Dayton • DePaul • Georgetown • Marquette Providence • Seton Hall • St. John’s • Saint Louis • Villanova • Xavier

09-17-2012, 07:30 AM	#380 (permalink)
MudFlap Star Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Victory Parkway Xavier University Posts: 3,644 Rep Power: 150436	Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers blahblHBLAH X Blahblahblah X blahblah UD blah blah blah hi school stats blah blah nobody has played yet blahblahblah.... 'nother weekend wasted googling baloney blahblah

09-17-2012, 04:08 PM	#386 (permalink)
AdamtheFlyer Star Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,819 Rep Power: 157851	Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers We get NCAA hate shoved down our throats by coaches and sycophantic media, people who have no say and only their own interests at stake, that people lose sight of just who runs the NCAA...the schools do! The schools are not going anywhere. NCAA cracks me up. There is almost always more to the story. Like, say, how Notre Dame Prep and its students (players) knew those classes may end up red flagged before they took them (talk to the right people, this is 100% true). They had time to go elsewhere and get the needed credits. They chose to stay. Red flags don't just happen, there are months/years of work that goes into it, and the schools are kept informed of every step in the process. And then there are months of work that go into the process from red flag to the decision that the credits aren't valid. Daddy Cassell and Daddy Davis won't mention that, and nor will jock sniffers like Goodman. Protect the narrative. The evil guys upstairs did it! __________________ Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism. Last edited by AdamtheFlyer; 09-17-2012 at 04:20 PM.

09-17-2012, 04:37 PM	#387 (permalink)
MudFlap Star Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Victory Parkway Xavier University Posts: 3,644 Rep Power: 150436	Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers "Eight of his teammates who attended the exact same classes that year were deemed qualifiers and played last season: Todd Mayo (Marquette), Angel Nunez (Louisville), Khem Birch (Pittsburgh -- now at UNLV), Grandy Glaze (Saint Louis), Zarko Valijarevic (Maine), Luka Radovic (South Carolina State), Devon McMillan (Fordham) and Jeff Short (Fordham)." Yeah, Seems fair.

09-17-2012, 05:11 AM	#378 (permalink)
Flyer75 Star Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,856 Rep Power: 37278	Thanks spider for that answer. I wasn't sure how the APR worked. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using VerticalSports.Com App

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