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Old 01-05-2013, 06:36 AM   #766 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by FlyingElvis View Post
All programs have some turnover for various reasons, but Mack has had more than his share, even among his coaches.
Come on man, you're a moderator. You've got to be smarter and more reasonable than this.

We've already been through this after Adam stated that it's widely known that Chris Mack is not liked in the NCAA men's basketball coaching ranks and is a difficult head coach to work for. This pronouncement was based on Adam's observation of Mack at an AAU high school game, and stories from 15+ years ago when Mack was coaching high school girls basketball in Cincinnati.

Pat Kelsey left- he suffered from publically-known mental illness and depression. He took a year off, and is now a head coach at Winthrop.

Kareem Richardson left- to take a promotion at Louisville.

Rasheen Davis left- to move back to NYC where his wife and daughter lived.

Wow.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:40 AM   #767 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by REF View Post
i remain stumped that Dayton fans are so obsessed with XU.
If Xavier's rival program had that much more success than Xavier for decades, there would be no doubt I'd be obsessed and extremely jealous of that program as well, and trying to tear it down any chance I could.

I'm not surprising, it's just human nature. It's just annoying on here.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:48 AM   #768 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

OK Xavierhoops. Xavier has had normal levels of turnover among their players, coaches, and recruits during Chris Mack's tenure.

Happy, XH? The statement is objectively and unavoidably false, but if it makes you feel better, we will go with this. OK?
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:50 AM   #769 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
If Xavier's rival program had that much more success than Xavier for decades, there would be no doubt I'd be obsessed and extremely jealous of that program as well, and trying to tear it down any chance I could.

I'm not surprising, it's just human nature. It's just annoying on here.
REF and XH, you guys didn't seem to care as much about UD fans' supposed "obsession" when XU was winning more ball games. Your frustration has to be directed at someone, I guess.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:04 AM   #770 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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REF and XH, you guys didn't seem to care as much about UD fans' supposed "obsession" when XU was winning more ball games. Your frustration has to be directed at someone, I guess.
Where did you conclude this from?

I've always kind of chuckled at UD fans' obsession and jealousy of Xavier. That hasn't started in just the past few months.

And I don't mean on here, in my personal life, too. I have many friends that graduated from UD and their jealousy of Xavier is pretty evident as well (again, not saying it's a bad thing... if shoe were on other foot, I'd have the same reaction). To say I've just noticed it... well go back to last year threads when Xavier was going to yet another Sweet 16, and UD had yet another first round loss in the NIT- I think I made a few comments about it even then!
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:10 AM   #771 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
OK Xavierhoops. Xavier has had normal levels of turnover among their players, coaches, and recruits during Chris Mack's tenure.

Happy, XH? The statement is objectively and unavoidably false, but if it makes you feel better, we will go with this. OK?
Cobra, I'm all about facts. But to somehow attempt to insinuate that in 3 years Mack having 3 coaches leave is somehow a poor reflection on Mack... it's a far-fetched conclusion by a Dayton fan who will attempt to portray X in the worst light as possible, no matter what.

First of all, I don't think having 3 coaches (out of 9 spots) leave in 3 years is all that unusual. It's especially not unusual when given the reasons (facts) I have already presented.

And in terms of player turnover- I'm trying to think but I can only think of Lyons and Dez other than normal graduation or leaving early for NBA. Lyons was definitely a Mack issue and Mack should take blame for that... and the Dez situation- I think I've already made my thoughts on how Xavier's inept Provost and Student Life administration handled that prefectly clear. So 1 basketball-related unexpected turnover in 3 years... again, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure that's all that unusual... or cause for alarm, particularly from the UD crowd.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:35 AM   #772 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
Cobra, I'm all about facts. But to somehow attempt to insinuate that in 3 years Mack having 3 coaches leave is somehow a poor reflection on Mack... it's a far-fetched conclusion by a Dayton fan who will attempt to portray X in the worst light as possible, no matter what.

First of all, I don't think having 3 coaches (out of 9 spots) leave in 3 years is all that unusual. It's especially not unusual when given the reasons (facts) I have already presented.

And in terms of player turnover- I'm trying to think but I can only think of Lyons and Dez other than normal graduation or leaving early for NBA. Lyons was definitely a Mack issues... and the Dez situation- I think I've already made my thoughts on how Xavier's inept Provost and Student Life administration handled that. So 1 basketball-related unexpected turnover in 3 years... again, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure that's all that unusual.
The fact is that Xavier has lost three coaches recently. We can argue over why, but that is reality. 3 coaching spots out 9 spots? What school has 9 coaches? These were three guys who were high-level assistants with the ability to recruit. Don't distort the conversation by including Dir of BB Ops and Grad Assistants and the water boy.

You continue to attack UD fans for "far-fetched conclusions," that aren't far-fetched conlcusions at all. These three coaches leaving might not have had anything to do with Mack. But it also might have had a lot to do with Mack. He is the head of state, and bears the ultimate responsibility for what happens under his watch. Kelsey had a mental illness, and was hired as head coach a year later? Seems skeptical to me. The other guy went to Manhattan, an inferior program, though I grant you its home to him. I don't mean to suggest they had personal problems with Mack, but perhaps a different coach could have convinced them to stay. This is the way we have to judge people at the highest level, even if its not always fair.

As for player departures, Lyons, Dez, McKenzie, Latham, Canty, I think there are more? Various de-commits.

I'm not a Mack hater, but he does seem to use a high risk-high reward strategy. I actually like that and would like to see more of it at UD. But, you respond to this idea like its unreasonable. It isnt.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:50 AM   #773 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
The fact is that Xavier has lost three coaches recently. We can argue over why, but that is reality. 3 coaching spots out 9 spots? What school has 9 coaches? These were three guys who were high-level assistants with the ability to recruit. Don't distort the conversation by including Dir of BB Ops and Grad Assistants and the water boy.

You continue to attack UD fans for "far-fetched conclusions," that aren't far-fetched conlcusions at all. These three coaches leaving might not have had anything to do with Mack. But it also might have had a lot to do with Mack. He is the head of state, and bears the ultimate responsibility for what happens under his watch. Kelsey had a mental illness, and was hired as head coach a year later? Seems skeptical to me. The other guy went to Manhattan, an inferior program, though I grant you its home to him.
I meant 9 spots (3 positions x 3 years). 3 of those spots resigned. As there was potential for 9 spots to resign.

But no, Cobra, we CANNOT argue over why these coaches left. There are facts. Not rumors from Mack coaching high school girls basketball 15 years ago or observing him at an AAU game. We have actual facts. Again, not opinion or observation. Actual facts. So no, we cannot argue why they left. We know why they left.

One left for a promotion at Louisville. Can't blame him.

One left because his wife and daughter live in NYC. As you stated, Manhattan is an inferior program to Xavier. He could have gone on to coach at dozens of different schools after coaching X to 2 Sweet 16's and 2 A-10 championships in 3 years. But no, he decided to go to an inferior school because it was located where his wife and daughter live... shocking, I know.

And now you're "skeptical" about Pat Kelsey's mental illness? Wow. Yep, Kelsey sought a year of professional mental health help so he had a plausible excuse to leave X. Not sure why I am even having this conversation with you. Hell, I don't even know who UD's assistant and former assistant coaches are... let alone make an opinion about their mental health.

Last edited by xavierhoops; 01-05-2013 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:53 AM   #774 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
As for player departures, McKenzie, Latham, Canty, I think there are more? Various de-commits.
I forgot about Latham, Canty and McKenzie. I was thinking more high-profile, actually decent players, as I think your argument was the high-risk created "turnover" has negatively affected X on the court. Latham and Canty clearly didn't pan out like their high school play suggested they would. But you won't get an argument from me that Mack really bombed out on his first class.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:58 AM   #775 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
I'm not a Mack hater, but he does seem to use a high risk-high reward strategy. I actually like that and would like to see more of it at UD. But, you respond to this idea like its unreasonable. It isnt.
No, no I don't. I do agree Xavier uses a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Again, I'm not sure where you would make the conclusion that I think it's "unreasonable".

Clearly, it's worked out pretty darn well for years. This is really the first time we are seeing the high-risk part in a decade? I'd (and just about every other breathing thing) would take that in a second over a philsophy of irrelevance and mediocrity year in and year out.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:46 AM   #776 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

You make a lot of leaps in logic, xavierhoops.

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
I meant 9 spots (3 positions x 3 years). 3 of those spots resigned. As there was potential for 9 spots to resign.
First, if that is what you meant by 3 out of 9, then yes, 3 out of 9 is really bad. Are you serious? Losing your assistant coaches at a 33% clip is pretty high. Are you really trying to say this isn't high turnover in college basketball? Can you name another school that has that high of rate over the last 3 years? I think one thing you are missing is: "turnover" is not a bad thing in and of itself. And I'm not trying to say it is. But 3/9 is a high turnover rate.

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
But no, Cobra, we CANNOT argue over why these coaches left. There are facts. Not rumors from Mack coaching high school girls basketball 15 years ago or observing him at an AAU game. We have actual facts. Again, not opinion or observation. Actual facts. So no, we cannot argue why they left. We know why they left.
Yes, we have the facts that we have been told. I think you are confusing "facts" for "legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with Mack."

You read in the newspaper that he left Xavier because he wanted to take a mental health break, and you accepted that as fact. It is just the explanation he gave publicly. I'm not saying its not true, but have you never heard of anyone sugar-coating their reason for leaving a job? C'mon man. To believe this is the full story and have no further questions (not only that but attack people who don't accept it as fact) makes you seem like a leming.

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post

One left for a promotion at Louisville. Can't blame him.

One left because his wife and daughter live in NYC. As you stated, Manhattan is an inferior program to Xavier. He could have gone on to coach at dozens of different schools after coaching X to 2 Sweet 16's and 2 A-10 championships in 3 years. But no, he decided to go to an inferior school because it was located where his wife and daughter live... shocking, I know.

And now you're "skeptical" about Pat Kelsey's mental illness? Wow. Yep, Kelsey sought a year of professional mental health help so he had a plausible excuse to leave X. Not sure why I am even having this conversation with you. Hell, I don't even know who UD's assistant and former assistant coaches are... let alone make an opinion about their mental health.
Louisville is the one you expect to have. And I understand that there are explanations for why the others left too. But there are always explanations. For whatever reason, they left Mack's program for less attractive basketball opportunities. He was unable to influence these men - Kelsey and Davis - enough to convince them that staying at Xavier was the best move for their careers and lives. That is basically unarguable.

I am not skeptical of Kelsey's "mental illness," but I am questioning whether it was the reason he left Xavier. You know, there is a broad spectrum of mental illnesses. Because he was treated for "mental illness" does not mean he was some psychopath that couldn't function as a college coach. You don't think any of these guys see shrinks? Thousands of Americans are "treated for mental illness" and continue to live their lives and work their jobs. Is the fact that Kelsey has returned to coaching indicate that he has completely recovered from this "mental illness" and he is not longer receiving treatment? Mental illness isn't cancer or the flu.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:54 AM   #777 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I forgot about Latham, Canty and McKenzie. I was thinking more high-profile, actually decent players, as I think your argument was the high-risk created "turnover" has negatively affected X on the court. Latham and Canty clearly didn't pan out like their high school play suggested they would. But you won't get an argument from me that Mack really bombed out on his first class.
My argument has never been that "high-risk created 'turnover' has negatively affected X on the court." Your failure to understand that is why I need to stop responding to you.

I responded because you said FLyingElvis had to be more reasonable than to post the following comment: "All programs have some turnover for various reasons, but Mack has had more than his share, even among his coaches."

I then said, "OK Xavierhoops. Xavier has had normal levels of turnover among their players, coaches, and recruits during Chris Mack's tenure...The statement is objectively and unavoidably false..."

This did not start as a discussion of high-risk, high-reward, though I do think the two ideas are related. By the way, I do think these three leaving relates to Mack's high-risk, high-reward ways. He thought he could get better guys, and risked giving a warm body (which may or may not have been able to provide some depth this year) for an empty chair on the bench (ie, going after riskier players).

But, speaking of FACTS, you conveniently forgot a few facts with regard to player defections, huh?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:05 AM   #778 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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But, speaking of FACTS, you conveniently forgot a few facts with regard to player defections, huh?
I don't know that it was convenient. I just didn't think of Latham and Canty as they aren't high-level basketball players and didn't do much at X.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:05 AM   #779 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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No, no I don't. I do agree Xavier uses a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Again, I'm not sure where you would make the conclusion that I think it's "unreasonable".

Clearly, it's worked out pretty darn well for years. This is really the first time we are seeing the high-risk part in a decade? I'd (and just about every other breathing thing) would take that in a second over a philsophy of irrelevance and mediocrity year in and year out.
I misspoke here. You react to UD fans saying Mack might have any culpability for what happens in his program as if they are crazy and unreasonable. You just said it was far-fetched for someone to say that Mack has any culpability for losing three coaches over three years. Its simply not far-fetched. He is the head coach.

You explain "the Mack way" as "the Xavier way" by talking about the last "decade," etc. Mack runs his program differently than Miller, just as Miller ran his differently than Matta. Again, that is not necessarily a positive or negative thing. Mack's philosophy has worked well for Mack for the last three years. But he wasn't exactly making lemonade from lemons.

And, as for your final jab, I don't think anyone subscribes to a "philosophy" of irrelevance and mediocrity. UD might have a "tradition" or a "history" or a "track record" of irrelevance, but not a philosophy. Do you understand what you are saying?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:07 AM   #780 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
This did not start as a discussion of high-risk, high-reward, though I do think the two ideas are related. By the way, I do think these three leaving relates to Mack's high-risk, high-reward ways. He thought he could get better guys, and risked giving a warm body (which may or may not have been able to provide some depth this year) for an empty chair on the bench (ie, going after riskier players).
I'm glad the coach of my program is that aggressive and proactive. I'd risk Latham and Canty and McKenzie if I thought I could get beter guys. Xavier's strategy has proved immensly successful over the course of many many years. Unfortuntely, this year the "risk" part hit us.

You clearly don't agree with Xavier's strategy. I suggest you remain a Dayton fan then.
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