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Old 01-05-2013, 10:11 AM   #781 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
I don't know that it was convenient. I just didn't think of Latham and Canty as they aren't high-level basketball players and didn't do much at X.
You aren't following man. When we talk about turnover, whether "the coach had a good reason," or "the player was any good," is all SECONDARY to the fact that they LEFT. When McDonald's loses an employee and has to hire another one, it still counts as employee turnover even if the employee who left sucked at making Big Macs.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:13 AM   #782 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I'm glad the coach of my program is that aggressive and proactive. I'd risk Latham and Canty and McKenzie if I thought I could get beter guys. Xavier's strategy has proved immensly successful over the course of many many years. Unfortuntely, this year the "risk" part hit us.

You clearly don't agree with Xavier's strategy. I suggest you remain a Dayton fan then.
There is no point in talking to you. You are your MBA do not understand. I am not taking a position on whether this was or wasn't a good thing for X. I'm just saying that it did happen, and it happened under Mack's watch.

I will remain a Dayton fan, thanks much. And I like the fact that Archie seems to be willing to take more risks. And I hope we rip Mack to shreds this year. Then we will see if you still think he is incapable of a mistake.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:17 AM   #783 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I don't know that it was convenient. I just didn't think of Latham and Canty as they aren't high-level basketball players and didn't do much at X.
Let's be clear here and revisit 2010 (which turned out to be a dudded for UD too) but....

per Rivals:

Jay Canty - #122 overall, #22 SG/F

Jordan Latham - #130 overall, #27 F

Griff McKenzie - 3 star, at one time 4 star recruit

Justin Martin - #86 overall, #17 F, 4 star player, 22 year old soph, in his 3rd year under Mack

I would absolutely call Canty and Latham "high-level" players, at least when they were recruited. Whatever the reason, and we will never come to board consensus on this, this class has really set XU back for the time being. Martin is the only player left and after a hot start looks to be morphing into Jeff Robinson 2.0. I'm pretty much quoting a Xavier fan from the X board when I say that up to this point, Mack is clearly getting the job done on the recruiting trail, but after signing day something is going wrong. This team, for various reasons is missing 3/4 above, Wells, and Lyons and is playing Landon Amos, Brad Redford, Dee Davis, Jeff Robinson and Eric Steneger. On top of that list, Myles Davis and Reynolds are getting a heavy dose of intramural hoops against 6'3" sensation, math whiz, Ferris Bueller.

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:20 AM   #784 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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You make a lot of leaps in logic, xavierhoops.

First, if that is what you meant by 3 out of 9, then yes, 3 out of 9 is really bad. Are you serious? Losing your assistant coaches at a 33% clip is pretty high. Are you really trying to say this isn't high turnover in college basketball? Can you name another school that has that high of rate over the last 3 years? I think one thing you are missing is: "turnover" is not a bad thing in and of itself. And I'm not trying to say it is. But 3/9 is a high turnover rate.
Uh, well, Louisville. The first school I looked at (since one of our coaches went there).

5/9 turnover. Again, it's not all that uncommon. Good try though, Cobra.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:27 AM   #785 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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You make a lot of leaps in logic, xavierhoops.

Yes, we have the facts that we have been told. I think you are confusing "facts" for "legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with Mack."

You read in the newspaper that he left Xavier because he wanted to take a mental health break, and you accepted that as fact. It is just the explanation he gave publicly. I'm not saying its not true, but have you never heard of anyone sugar-coating their reason for leaving a job? C'mon man. To believe this is the full story and have no further questions (not only that but attack people who don't accept it as fact) makes you seem like a leming.



Louisville is the one you expect to have. And I understand that there are explanations for why the others left too. But there are always explanations. For whatever reason, they left Mack's program for less attractive basketball opportunities. He was unable to influence these men - Kelsey and Davis - enough to convince them that staying at Xavier was the best move for their careers and lives. That is basically unarguable.

I am not skeptical of Kelsey's "mental illness," but I am questioning whether it was the reason he left Xavier. You know, there is a broad spectrum of mental illnesses. Because he was treated for "mental illness" does not mean he was some psychopath that couldn't function as a college coach. You don't think any of these guys see shrinks? Thousands of Americans are "treated for mental illness" and continue to live their lives and work their jobs. Is the fact that Kelsey has returned to coaching indicate that he has completely recovered from this "mental illness" and he is not longer receiving treatment? Mental illness isn't cancer or the flu.
I don't have a ton of experience with mental illness (family/friends etc) but I'd be willing to guess one wouldn't publicly state he had to resign and seek mental health treatment for over a year just so no questions would be asked/flags raised about the real reason he quit.

The bolded part is what I really get a kick out of. You do realize Pat Kelsey is a Division 1 head coach now, correct? In fact, he's the head coach at a school that has had DOUBLE (8) the NCAA appearances Dayton (4) has had this century. So now you are skeptical about Pat Kelsey's mental health issues after watching his basketball and life mentor die in front of him... and you're suggesting his career and family would have been better off as an assistant at Xavier than the head coach of a basketball program who is a regular in the NCAA tournament?

Got it.

It may be a new concept for UD fans that assistant coaches at really successful programs move on to bigger and better things.

Maybe you can help me understand.... why exactly would you waste a Saturday afternoon arguing with me about Xavier's assistant coaches and how the turnover is at an all-time high (even challenging me to find one higher... which as I stated- the first and only school I looked at- Louisville.). Obsessed, much?
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:31 AM   #786 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
Uh, well, Louisville. The first school I looked at (since one of our coaches went there).

5/9 turnover. Again, it's not all that uncommon. Good try though, Cobra.
HAHAHAHHAAHA. After that entire exchange, you point out one team that has higher turnover at assistant coach as proof that 33% is not a high turnover rate in a 300+ team NCAA, and then say "good try though, Cobra." You are being dominated right now and do not even understand it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:32 AM   #787 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
You aren't following man. When we talk about turnover, whether "the coach had a good reason," or "the player was any good," is all SECONDARY to the fact that they LEFT. When McDonald's loses an employee and has to hire another one, it still counts as employee turnover even if the employee who left sucked at making Big Macs.
You must not be in business. If I have significant employee turnover, as a manager, I will look at the reasoning. If it's for a good reason or reason out of my organization's control (wanted to move for family reasons, employee had a much better opportunity somewhere else to have a managerial position like mine, the employee was underperforming so we parted ways with him/her) there isn't a organizational issue that needs to be addressed. It's just the nature of the beast.

Now if employees were leaving for reasons that is under my organization's control... compensation, culture, personality/personnel issues... Then we would need to look further into the root causes of why people are leaving and make organizational changes.

If you're looking at raw data of turnover and not the reason why and start going around making organizational changes from data and not analysis of the data... Well you're going to waste a whole lot of money and time.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:34 AM   #788 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by TheCobra View Post
HAHAHAHHAAHA. After that entire exchange, you point out one team that has higher turnover at assistant coach as proof that 33% is not a high turnover rate in a 300+ team NCAA, and then say "good try though, Cobra." You are being dominated right now and do not even understand it.
Uh, well, that was the first (because Richardson went there) and only school I looked at.

I suppose I can go look for others.

And I'm being "dominated" right now. Good, logical argument.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:38 AM   #789 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
You must not be in business. If I have significant employee turnover, as a manager, I will look at the reasoning. If it's for a good reason or reason out of my organization's control (wanted to move for family reasons, employee had a much better opportunity somewhere else to have a managerial position like mine, the employee was underperforming so we parted ways with him/her) there isn't a organizational issue that needs to be addressed. It's just the nature of the beast.

Now if employees were leaving for reasons that is under my organization's control... compensation, culture, personality/personnel issues... Then we would need to look further into the root causes of why people are leaving and make organizational changes.

If you're looking at raw data of turnover and not the reason why and start going around making organizational changes from data and not analysis of the data... Well you're going to waste a whole lot of money and time.
You may also want to look at your hiring practices too. We only have three examples that we're talking about...Kelsey who left for one year and then took a HC job (I'm sure Pat had bigger aspirations 3 years ago then Winthrop). I also find it odd that it was mental illness so he had to step back (for a year???? really?? technically, it wasn't even a full year was it? Remember the rumor with the fallout over the WF rape scandal that Kelsey was a part of??? directly or indirectly). I'm not going to revisit this, just my opinion, that's odd. Another coach left to be an assistant at Manhattan....step up??? I doubt it. I realize family has something to do with that but again, figure this out when you hire a guy for a year. Another as an assistant to Louisville. Who knows? I would have thought a HC job anywhere would be better.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:40 AM   #790 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by Flyer75 View Post
Let's be clear here and revisit 2010 (which turned out to be a dudded for UD too) but....

per Rivals:

Jay Canty - #122 overall, #22 SG/F

Jordan Latham - #130 overall, #27 F

Griff McKenzie - 3 star, at one time 4 star recruit

Justin Martin - #86 overall, #17 F, 4 star player, 22 year old soph, in his 3rd year under Mack

I would absolutely call Canty and Latham "high-level" players, at least when they were recruited. Whatever the reason, and we will never come to board consensus on this, this class has really set XU back for the time being. Mack is clearly getting the job done on the recruiting trail, but after signing day something is going wrong. .
I agree with what I left and highlighted. They were "high-level" recruits, just didn't pan out to be high-level players. And I do agree, that Mack's first class which was really a dud (other than Martin) is hurting X.

And I don't think you're off-base at all in realizing Mack is bringing in high-level, high-rated recruits, but questioning whether he can develop those recruits once they get to campus. I somewhat agree. I've never thought Mack was a great X's and O's coach, but he is a great recruiter. Xavier needs another good pure basketball X and O's coach on staff like Kelsey.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:41 AM   #791 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
I don't have a ton of experience with mental illness (family/friends etc) but I'd be willing to guess one wouldn't publicly state he had to resign and seek mental health treatment for over a year just so no questions would be asked/flags raised about the real reason he quit.

The bolded part is what I really get a kick out of. You do realize Pat Kelsey is a Division 1 head coach now, correct? In fact, he's the head coach at a school that has had DOUBLE (8) the NCAA appearances Dayton (4) has had this century. So now you are skeptical about Pat Kelsey's mental health issues after watching his basketball and life mentor die in front of him... and you're suggesting his career and family would have been better off as an assistant at Xavier than the head coach of a basketball program who is a regular in the NCAA tournament?

Got it.

It may be a new concept for UD fans that assistant coaches at really successful programs move on to bigger and better things.

Maybe you can help me understand.... why exactly would you waste a Saturday afternoon arguing with me about Xavier's assistant coaches and how the turnover is at an all-time high (even challenging me to find one higher... which as I stated- the first and only school I looked at- Louisville.). Obsessed, much?
Not all people look at "mental illness" as taboo as you do, apparently. If I recall correctly, he said he wanted to step away from the game, spend time with family, reflect on what is important, etc. It wasnt as publicly shameful as you make it seem.

I get a real kick out of that fact that you get a kick out of "the bolded part," XH. You are ignoring facts again. Your post makes it seem as if he went directly from X to Winthrop ("and you're suggesting his career and family would have been better off as an assistant at Xavier than the head coach of a basketball program who is a regular in the NCAA tournament"), when you know he didnt. He quit with no job. Stop distorting facts. Got it?

"It may be a new concept for UD fans that assistant coaches at really successful programs move on to bigger and better things."

I don't dispute this statement in the abstract. But again, are you trying to say this is what has happened at Xavier? So a job at Manhattan or no job at all are "bigger and better things." Got it.

I have a hard time understanding why I am arguing with you too. I think it is just because you do not "get it" at such a profound level that I feel compelled to respond and try to explain how you are misinterpreting something or overreacting to something. It never works. WHen we are done, you still dont get it. Then a couple days later, you post, unprovoked, about "palpable pressure" or "multi-year rough patches" or attack any Dayton fan who makes a reasonable comment if it is negative toward Xavier ("Mack has had a lot of turnover"). I will do my best to never do it again. But please, whenever you post, know that I want to tell you how much you don't get it.

By the way, I predict, right now, that you will mockingly post about how I didn't believe that Kelsey had a "mental illness" as another example of a ridiculous Dayton fan. But if anyone were to actually read the exchange we just had, they would see that you have taken it completely out of context.

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:48 AM   #792 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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You may also want to look at your hiring practices too. We only have three examples that we're talking about...Kelsey who left for one year and then took a HC job (I'm sure Pat had bigger aspirations 3 years ago then Winthrop). I also find it odd that it was mental illness so he had to step back (for a year???? really?? technically, it wasn't even a full year was it? Remember the rumor with the fallout over the WF rape scandal that Kelsey was a part of??? directly or indirectly). I'm not going to revisit this, just my opinion, that's odd. Another coach left to be an assistant at Manhattan....step up??? I doubt it. I realize family has something to do with that but again, figure this out when you hire a guy for a year. Another as an assistant to Louisville. Who knows? I would have thought a HC job anywhere would be better.
I know Pat was one of the finalists at Charlotte his last year at X when another former Xavier assistant- Alan Major got it. I don't think Winthrop is that bad of a gig for Kelsey's first HC position. As I said, they are a pretty consistent NCAA participant (double the apperances of Dayton).

And you can find it odd all you want... I just don't think Pat Kelsey would quit, take a year off, publicly announce he need and sought mental help issues and even have documentaries on ESPN about it... just so there wouldn't be questions about Xavier and Mack.

Regardless, the bottom line is it isn't that unusual to have 3 spots out of 9 open up within 3 years.... particularly when 1 was for a head coaching job at an regular NCAA participant and another was for assistant at Louisville.

Cobra- do you also find it concerning Xavier's had 3 head coaches in 9 years?

You Dayton guys (mainly Cobra) can remain obsessed over Xavier's assistant and former assistant coaches... but I think Xavier will keep doing what it does.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:52 AM   #793 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I get a real kick out of that fact that you get a kick out of "the bolded part," XH. You are ignoring facts again. Your post makes it seem as if he went directly from X to Winthrop ("and you're suggesting his career and family would have been better off as an assistant at Xavier than the head coach of a basketball program who is a regular in the NCAA tournament"), when you know he didnt. He quit with no job. Stop distorting facts. Got it?

You are right. He quit without a job. He wasn't making millions at Xavier so he couldn't just afford to "take a year off". Probably around $150,000-175,000.

But he quit, without another job, because he just couldn't get along with Chris Mack. But liked Mack enough that he publicly talked about his mental illness issues and how was going to seek treatment as why he quit just so it wouldn't shed a poor light on Mack and Xavier.

Yep, I got it Cobra. I'll stop distorting the facts.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:58 AM   #794 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I know Pat was one of the finalists at Charlotte his last year at X when another former Xavier assistant- Alan Major got it. I don't think Winthrop is that bad of a gig for Kelsey's first HC position. As I said, they are a pretty consistent NCAA participant (double the apperances of Dayton).

And you can find it odd all you want... I just don't think Pat Kelsey would quit, take a year off, publicly announce he need and sought mental help issues and even have documentaries on ESPN about it... just so there wouldn't be questions about Xavier and Mack.

Regardless, the bottom line is it isn't that unusual to have 3 spots out of 9 open up within 3 years.... particularly when 1 was for a head coaching job at an regular NCAA participant and another was for assistant at Louisville.

Cobra- do you also find it concerning Xavier's had 3 head coaches in 9 years?

You Dayton guys (mainly Cobra) can remain obsessed over Xavier's assistant and former assistant coaches... but I think Xavier will keep doing what it does.
Damn, I failed already.

So you continue to act as if Kelsey left XU for Winthrop as if no one is noticing? LOL. "I don't think Winthrop is that bad of a gig for Kelsey's first HC position." I don't think its a bad job either, but this statement is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT because he didn't leave Xavier for Winthrop.

I am not saying Kelsey was not suffering from many things. I don't question any of that. What I do question is whether that was the sole reason he left Xavier. You don't understand the distinction.

I am not obsessed with X's assistants. I don't care about them. As I said, this turnover cannot be said to be either a positive or negative thing for X at this point. What I apparently am obsessed with is challenging you when you make ridiculous claims and statements, like you did this morning in response to Elvis' post. That is all.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:05 AM   #795 (permalink)
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Re: 2012-2013 Xavier Musketeers

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I am not saying Kelsey was not suffering from many things. I don't question any of that. What I do question is whether that was the sole reason he left Xavier. You don't understand the distinction.

I am not obsessed with X's assistants. I don't care about them.
So almost 2 years later, you're still questioning the reason Pat Kelsey left Xavier. When Pat Kelsey himself publicly stated himself he need time away from the game, was having mental health issues and needed to seek professional help. Even ESPN features about it and interviews with him months later.

2 years later you're still not convinved!!

But then you turn around and say you aren't obsessed with X's assistants and don't care about them.

Got it.
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