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Old 12-03-2012, 08:23 AM   #406 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Much of the allure of the Catholic Big East basketball only members is and has been derived from their membership in the Big East and association with schools such as Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn. That has allowed these schools to reap television revenues, tv appearances, and be able to rent large off campus venues. Things will be much different going foward for the Catholic basketball onlies. Their revenue streams are going to fall far behind the big boys and hurt their ability to compete at the highest levels (coaches, recruits, on court).

The post showing the campus homes of the basketball onlies is rather telling. These are small venues with little amenities. The schools however have gotten around this by renting nearby large modern arenas. They for some reason never invested in their own full-time facilities on campus like other Catholic schools such as Xavier, UD, and SLU. It will be interesting to see if these schools can make off campus arenas continue to work. Much of these schools large attendance numbers are tied to high profile schools leaving the Big East. Their OOC attendance numbers are not good. Providence drew just 4,307 for Bryant and 4,596 for Holy Cross to the 12,400 seat DDC so far this season. St. John's has played five homes games this season but none at MSG. The Red Storm have drawn an average of 4,151 to the 5,602 seat Carneseca Arena on its campus in the country's largest popultion center. Seton Hall actually played its first game against UMKC at Walsh Gym getting a crowd of 2,600 (which was its capacity). The name of the opponent is a critical element for these schools in choosing the venue and selling tickets.

It is also worth noting that many of these schools have chosen to play their NIT home games at their small on campus venues rather than renting out the large arenas. While scheduling may have played some part in this, I can't but help think that cost/attendance factors did not also play into this decision making.

The Catholic basketball only schools of the northeast have dramatically changed over the last 50 years. They used to be all male or mostly male for a long time. They were formerly mostly commuter schools that catered to the sons of local working class Catholics (mostly Irish and Italian descent). That is no longer the case anymore. These mostly liberal arts schools are now dominated by female enrollments (that do not have as much an affinity for sports) that come from outside the school's local area. While the academic standings of these schools have greatly been enhanced over the last 50 years, they have become more detached from their local cities. Their students come from elsewhere and return there upon graduation. These schools have been increasingly relying on the unaffiliated locals for attendance. They have been able to do so due to their inclusion in the Big East. These general public casual fans may not support these schools to the same degree if they are not in a top national conference regulary bringing in the high profile schools. Reality is quickly changing for the BE Catholic basketball onlies and it is not getting better for them. The athletics model that once worked for them may not in the future.
Excellent post.

Between the perspective you offered and the pictures duq81 posted, there should be cause for concern for how viable that group can be moving forward.

Every one of us wants the most promising conference possible for our programs. All this realignment provides a great opportunity to speculate.

We'll see what happens. Your post is consistent with fan reaction from a number of the BE hoops schools; they're deeply concerned about their ability to remain relevant and can only see themselves going into reverse from here. Their not all that way. Some have enough vision to suggest putting together the so-called national conference or a mix of the top of the BE hoops schools with some A10 schools.

What is that old adage: be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. Imagine trading Rose Hill Gym for McDonough Arena.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:03 AM   #407 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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BTW, I'm not sure the B1G ever had a policy about contiguous states. If they did, they did, even if such a policy were written into their by-laws. Guess how much of a chance such by-laws stand at not being amended at this point. Like jps noted, they aren't going to pick up stuff in KY and TN just to get to a GA school. But they will go ahead and take that GA school because of its market and institutional appeal, not to mention the ability to hop into a part of the SEC's geographical sandbox.
It may be in the by-laws, but it's just an excuse to not consider schools further away, both for the conference (don't want to appear spurned) and those schools (avoid offending their fans).

It'd be a dumb rule anyway. How far away are Penn St. and Nebraska from each other? The fact that you can hop from state-to-state from one to the other has zero to do with how cohesive the conference is.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:12 AM   #408 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

I'm surprised there aren't more leaks involving some of the A10 schools joining up with remnants of the Big East basketball only schools. It'd be good leverage to use in getting their way in conference decisions. In fact, a subset of the A10 could pretty easily reorganize as the A14 or something with a few Big East teams and exclude anyone they wanted. I would imagine even if the A10 is a better conference than the leftovers in the Big East, that this might be an appealing option to some programs.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:16 AM   #409 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

RF1’s post aptly illustrates why I think the A-10 teams would be foolish to let the Big East-only basketball teams call the shots.

The biggest advantage these schools have is the Big East basketball brand and the money they get from football. If they divorce football, there goes most of the money. And with all the losses of teams like Cuse and Pitt, the basketball conference loses its allure.

Any TV contract the Big East basketball teams win, if they break off, will generate far less revenue than what they are used to.

The big question is, would St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown and every other BE basketball school continue to devote the same amount of money to basketball given a big drop in TV revenue? And would they commit to building new on-campus arenas?

I know Xavier and Dayton don’t like a few schools being in the conference, but just look at the arena situation. It basically sucks for every Big East basketball school. The only one that has a nice, sizable on-campus arena is Villanova.

In a new Big East, Georgetown simply won’t attract as many people at the MCI Center when Dayton or Butler comes to town. Nor will Seton Hall or Providence.
So much allure for fans is lost when Cuse, Pitt, BC, West Virginia and other ranked Big East schools are no longer showing up.

For financial reasons that will necessarily mean more home games at the smaller on-campus gyms at Gtown, Seton Hall, St. Johns. Or games will be played in huge, half-empty cavernous pro arenas used by the Hoyas, Marquette, Depaul, PC.

The A-10 already has a good nucleus of schools, private and public, with good on-campus facilities. X, Dayton, Richmond, VCU, Butler, UMass, Rhode Island, St. Joe’s (smaller but really nice).

GW has spruced up its place a lot and I would take the arenas of Bona and Duquesne over most of the on-campus gyms of the Big East basketball teams.

Facilities are a huge deal now to A-10 fans. We all know better facilities are necessary for any school to remain competitive on a regular basis. That’s why there are often a lot of complaints about Fordham and LaSalle among members of this board.

Shacking up with the Big East basketball teams makes that problem worse!
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:32 AM   #410 (permalink)
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I will crack a joke about the Tom Gola Middle School Gym, but the truth is, I couldn't care less about where a school plays their games.

It's about commitment to the program. The drive to be successful. The money to invest in upgrades to all facilities. It's hard to be really good, but it's even harder to be really bad.

Arenas are nice, but they never tell the whole story. St Joes plays in a bandbox that looks laughable compared to the better A10 arenas, but their commitment is as strong as anyone.

Many of the Big East schools are the same way. They will be fine if and when the Big East splits because they have an interior drive to be successful , and are run by people who know what it takes to set yourself up for success. Even DePaul is repositioning itself to build to success again.

What are Fordham and LaSalle doing? New light bulbs?

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Old 12-03-2012, 09:34 AM   #411 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Originally Posted by RF1 View Post
Much of the allure of the Catholic Big East basketball only members is and has been derived from their membership in the Big East and association with schools such as Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn. That has allowed these schools to reap television revenues, tv appearances, and be able to rent large off campus venues. Things will be much different going foward for the Catholic basketball onlies. Their revenue streams are going to fall far behind the big boys and hurt their ability to compete at the highest levels (coaches, recruits, on court).

The post showing the campus homes of the basketball onlies is rather telling. These are small venues with little amenities. The schools however have gotten around this by renting nearby large modern arenas. They for some reason never invested in their own full-time facilities on campus like other Catholic schools such as Xavier, UD, and SLU. It will be interesting to see if these schools can make off campus arenas continue to work. Much of these schools large attendance numbers are tied to the high profile schools leaving (or expected to leave) the Big East. Their OOC attendance numbers are not good. Providence drew just 4,307 for Bryant and 4,596 for Holy Cross to the 12,400 seat DDC so far this season. St. John's has played five homes games this season but none at MSG. The Red Storm have drawn an average of 4,151 to the 5,602 seat Carneseca Arena on its campus in the country's largest popultion center (just 3,506 for Detroit). Seton Hall actually played its first game against UMKC at Walsh Gym getting a crowd of 2,600 (which was its capacity). The Prudential Center in downtown Newark actually curtains off the upper tier to make a more intimate setting for Seton Hall games. The name of the opponent is a critical element for these schools in choosing the venue and selling tickets.

It is also worth noting that many of these schools have chosen to play their NIT home games at their small on campus venues in recent years rather than renting out the large arenas. While scheduling may have played some part in this, I can't but help think that cost/attendance factors did not also play into this decision making.

The Catholic basketball only schools of the northeast have dramatically changed over the last 50 years. They used to be all male or mostly male for a long time. They were formerly mostly commuter schools that catered to the sons of local working class Catholics (mostly Irish and Italian descent). That is no longer the case anymore. These mostly liberal arts schools are now dominated by female enrollments (that do not have as much an affinity for sports) that come from outside the school's local area. While the academic standings of these schools have greatly been enhanced over the last 50 years, they have become more detached from their local cities. Their students come from elsewhere and return there upon graduation. These schools have been increasingly relying on the unaffiliated locals for attendance. They have been able to do so due to their inclusion in the Big East of the past. These general public casual fans may not support these schools to the same degree if they are not in a top national conference regularly bringing in the high profile schools. Reality is quickly changing for the BE Catholic basketball onlies and it is not getting better for them. The athletics model that once worked for them may not in the future.
Great thread indeed. Personally, I think an all-Catholic league would only work for high school.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:41 AM   #412 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I'm surprised there aren't more leaks involving some of the A10 schools joining up with remnants of the Big East basketball only schools. It'd be good leverage to use in getting their way in conference decisions. In fact, a subset of the A10 could pretty easily reorganize as the A14 or something with a few Big East teams and exclude anyone they wanted. I would imagine even if the A10 is a better conference than the leftovers in the Big East, that this might be an appealing option to some programs.
Exactly
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #413 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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RF1ís post aptly illustrates why I think the A-10 teams would be foolish to let the Big East-only basketball teams call the shots.

The biggest advantage these schools have is the Big East basketball brand and the money they get from football. If they divorce football, there goes most of the money. And with all the losses of teams like Cuse and Pitt, the basketball conference loses its allure.

Any TV contract the Big East basketball teams win, if they break off, will generate far less revenue than what they are used to.

The big question is, would St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown and every other BE basketball school continue to devote the same amount of money to basketball given a big drop in TV revenue? And would they commit to building new on-campus arenas?

I know Xavier and Dayton donít like a few schools being in the conference, but just look at the arena situation. It basically sucks for every Big East basketball school. The only one that has a nice, sizable on-campus arena is Villanova.

In a new Big East, Georgetown simply wonít attract as many people at the MCI Center when Dayton or Butler comes to town. Nor will Seton Hall or Providence.
So much allure for fans is lost when Cuse, Pitt, BC, West Virginia and other ranked Big East schools are no longer showing up.

For financial reasons that will necessarily mean more home games at the smaller on-campus gyms at Gtown, Seton Hall, St. Johns. Or games will be played in huge, half-empty cavernous pro arenas used by the Hoyas, Marquette, Depaul, PC.

I pray all A10 schools consider this situation from this perspective. To me, it's crazy to think a school like X would abandon a profitable, successful situation like it has for a massive gamble with the Big East leftovers. The A10 needs to dig its heels in and strengthen itself on the desperation of the soon-to-be panicking remnants of the Big East.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #414 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I will crack a joke about the Tom Gola Middle School Gym, but the truth is, I couldn't care less about where a school plays their games.

It's about commitment to the program. The drive to be successful. The money to invest in upgrades to all facilities. It's hard to be really good, but it's even harder to be really bad.

Arenas are nice, but they never tell the whole story. St Joes plays in a bandbox that looks laughable compared to the better A10 arenas, but their commitment is as strong as anyone.

Many of the Big East schools are the same way. They will be fine if and when the Big East splits because they have an interior drive to be successful , and are run by people who know what it takes to set yourself up for success. Even DePaul is repositioning itself to build to success again.

What are Fordham and LaSalle doing? New light bulbs?

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And I will crack a you being a troll, who knows nothing about basketball, but the truth is, I couldn't care less about what you write because your words do it for me.

You are comparing La Salle to Fordham? A school that was in NIT last year (and looking at another NIT more than likely unless they do really well in A-10) and currently in the 70s in the RPI pool to a school in the 200s and no postseason experiences in the last 3-4 years.

So if you aren't judging by arenas like you say, how do you judge commitment? Money spent? Money spent to available funds ratio?

Grand Total Expenses
Temple $29,757,012
Massachusetts $24,809,054
Fordham $22,855,380
Rhode Island $21,107,828
Richmond $20,511,418
George Washington $19,996,423
Dayton $19,870,762
Xavier $15,135,882
Duquesne $14,331,403
Charlotte $13,723,303
Saint Joseph's $13,703,945
Saint Louis $13,611,515
La Salle $11,664,550
Saint Bonaventure $7,431,261

Men's Basketball Expenses
Richmond $4,056,940
Xavier $3,929,624
Dayton $3,810,320
George Washington $3,480,829
Fordham $3,154,182
Temple $3,089,270
Saint Joseph's $3,020,790
Saint Louis $2,951,352
Duquesne $2,928,573
Rhode Island $2,816,066
Massachusetts $2,806,835
La Salle $2,364,336
Charlotte $2,275,714
Saint Bonaventure $1,592,420

2011 Basketball Expenses to Athletic Budget Ratio:
Xavier 25.9%
St Joe's 22.0%
St Louis 21.6%
St Bona 21.4%
Duquesne 20.4%
La Salle 20.3%
Richmond 19.7%
Dayton 19.1%
GW 17.4%
Charlotte 16.5%
Fordham 13.8%
URI 13.3%
UMASS 11.3%
Temple 10.7%

Naturally, the numbers show the influence of football. Temple plays FBS football. Charlotte numbers is interesting considering these numbers do not include Football yet. GW is also surprising because they do not have football. I imagine Butler and VCU would be somewhere in the upper middle of the ratio rankings.

I am not familiar with the FCS payout structure but posters from these schools, how do these football programs do financially? Net Income- Black or Red? If in the red, would the respective poster representing the schools like to get rid of football to be able to invest more in basketball?
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:33 AM   #415 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Men's Basketball Expenses
Richmond $4,056,940
Xavier $3,929,624
Dayton $3,810,320
George Washington $3,480,829
Fordham $3,154,182
Temple $3,089,270
Saint Joseph's $3,020,790
Saint Louis $2,951,352
Duquesne $2,928,573
Rhode Island $2,816,066
Massachusetts $2,806,835
La Salle $2,364,336
Charlotte $2,275,714
Saint Bonaventure $1,592,420
A-10 champs! Suck on it chumps who spent way more money.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #416 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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RF1ís post aptly illustrates why I think the A-10 teams would be foolish to let the Big East-only basketball teams call the shots.

The biggest advantage these schools have is the Big East basketball brand and the money they get from football. If they divorce football, there goes most of the money. And with all the losses of teams like Cuse and Pitt, the basketball conference loses its allure.

Any TV contract the Big East basketball teams win, if they break off, will generate far less revenue than what they are used to.

The big question is, would St. Johns, Seton Hall, Georgetown and every other BE basketball school continue to devote the same amount of money to basketball given a big drop in TV revenue? And would they commit to building new on-campus arenas?

I know Xavier and Dayton donít like a few schools being in the conference, but just look at the arena situation. It basically sucks for every Big East basketball school. The only one that has a nice, sizable on-campus arena is Villanova.

In a new Big East, Georgetown simply wonít attract as many people at the MCI Center when Dayton or Butler comes to town. Nor will Seton Hall or Providence.
So much allure for fans is lost when Cuse, Pitt, BC, West Virginia and other ranked Big East schools are no longer showing up.

For financial reasons that will necessarily mean more home games at the smaller on-campus gyms at Gtown, Seton Hall, St. Johns. Or games will be played in huge, half-empty cavernous pro arenas used by the Hoyas, Marquette, Depaul, PC.

The A-10 already has a good nucleus of schools, private and public, with good on-campus facilities. X, Dayton, Richmond, VCU, Butler, UMass, Rhode Island, St. Joeís (smaller but really nice).

GW has spruced up its place a lot and I would take the arenas of Bona and Duquesne over most of the on-campus gyms of the Big East basketball teams.

Facilities are a huge deal now to A-10 fans. We all know better facilities are necessary for any school to remain competitive on a regular basis. Thatís why there are often a lot of complaints about Fordham and LaSalle among members of this board.

Shacking up with the Big East basketball teams makes that problem worse!
Another excellent post.

For me, all this boils down to what I've always pounded on when it comes to conference composition: alignment of like minded schools.

I initially consider that, then I consider the strength of each program, based on criteria that include administrative support, overall institutional financial resources, facilities, budget commitment to athletics, tradition (i.e. performance/record/accomplishment revered by fans), fan base and media market. Those virtually flow in order, because if the leadership of an institution doesn't get it or won't fully support it, the potential for such a school is dead on arrival.

duq81's pictures, your comments, and RF1's comments all provide a compelling case for treading carefully with all this.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:06 AM   #417 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

I can understand why fans from schools such as Xavier and Dayton might be excited about being in a new Basketball only Big East. Your schools are already succeeding on the court, knocking out your buildings, recruiting at a high level, and making due with minimal league tv revenues. From your perspective, things can only get better. Keep in mind however that for the Big East basketball onlies, it is a far cry. It will be a step down with many unknown risks. Your dream is their nightmare and that is why they have not set upon this course as of yet and if they do, it will be with great reluctance and trepidation.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #418 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I can understand why fans from schools such as Xavier and Dayton might be excited about being in a new Basketball only Big East. Your schools are already succeeding on the court, knocking out your buildings, recruiting at a high level, and making due with minimal league tv revenues. From your perspective, things can only get better. Keep in mind however that for the Big East basketball onlies, it is a far cry. It will be a step down with many unknown risks. Your dream is their nightmare and that is why they have not set upon this course as of yet and if they do, it will be with great reluctance and trepidation.
That's the best phrase I've ever read on this topic.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:50 AM   #419 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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A-10 champs! Suck on it chumps who spent way more money.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:07 PM   #420 (permalink)
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We don't inflate spending, make a run then sell it all off immediately after. It's all about small ball. This is why we leave 5 open scholarships.
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