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Old 12-03-2012, 12:34 PM   #421 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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And I will crack a you being a troll, who knows nothing about basketball, but the truth is, I couldn't care less about what you write because your words do it for me.

You are comparing La Salle to Fordham? A school that was in NIT last year (and looking at another NIT more than likely unless they do really well in A-10) and currently in the 70s in the RPI pool to a school in the 200s and no postseason experiences in the last 3-4 years.

So if you aren't judging by arenas like you say, how do you judge commitment? Money spent? Money spent to available funds ratio?
I compare La Salle to Fordham because La Salle's results in the A10 mirror Fordham's more than any other program. 1 postseason appearance and 3 overall winning seasons in 17 years. That is putrid and non-competitive. Would you rather compare La Salle to St Joes? That wouldn't end well. Or St Bona? (2 NCAAs and 4 NITs in those 17 years).

It's not about money spent, although that does help. I love everything about St Bona, despite their budget. The discussion turned to the Big East programs having on campus facilities more like La Salle, Fordham St Joe, St Bona, among others. My point is that they won't fall anywhere near the level of La Salle and Fordham. They care. The results tell me La Salle doesn't.

If I'm wrong on La Salle, tell me why instead of attacking me like a whiny little child. You made one NIT in 17 years and you will have a winning record this year. Great. Why should I believe that is about to become years of continued competitiveness and success and not just a short term random event?
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:35 PM   #422 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

FWIW. Adam Zagoria of SNY had a blog today indicating that under the current tv contract each bb school receives 1.56 million per year. I've never seen reliable published info on what the NEW A-10 contracts, but I suspect the A-10 schools would be happy if they were getting 50% of what the BE schools currently get. While the BE certainly is not what it once was in either fb or bb, the football franchise poses a trickle down benefit to the basketball onlies. I think the question to ask is whether or not the bb schools get the same money under the new contract or not. If it stays about the same there really isn't any reason for them to look at a bb only conference. The bb onlies of the BE have a 2/3 majority vote until July 1, 2013 at which the fb schools come into the conference and have the majority. Rather then dissolving the conference, I could see them reaching out to several A-10 schools along with Creighton, bringing them into the BE. They keep the voting majority, they retain the BE brand, they keep the contract with Madison Square Garden in place, and they'll offer a good bb product.

By the way, with respect to the BE onlies lacking on-site facilities, I think that is a legit concern. I lived clsoe to Seton Hall a couple of years ago and they don't have room on campus to build a new facility nor is it likely they can renovate their gym to get even 5K people at games. I suspect for some of the other schools it would be cost prohibitive too.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:02 PM   #423 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Originally Posted by College Hoops View Post
FWIW. Adam Zagoria of SNY had a blog today indicating that under the current tv contract each bb school receives 1.56 million per year. I've never seen reliable published info on what the NEW A-10 contracts, but I suspect the A-10 schools would be happy if they were getting 50% of what the BE schools currently get. While the BE certainly is not what it once was in either fb or bb, the football franchise poses a trickle down benefit to the basketball onlies. I think the question to ask is whether or not the bb schools get the same money under the new contract or not. If it stays about the same there really isn't any reason for them to look at a bb only conference. The bb onlies of the BE have a 2/3 majority vote until July 1, 2013 at which the fb schools come into the conference and have the majority. Rather then dissolving the conference, I could see them reaching out to several A-10 schools along with Creighton, bringing them into the BE. They keep the voting majority, they retain the BE brand, they keep the contract with Madison Square Garden in place, and they'll offer a good bb product.

By the way, with respect to the BE onlies lacking on-site facilities, I think that is a legit concern. I lived clsoe to Seton Hall a couple of years ago and they don't have room on campus to build a new facility nor is it likely they can renovate their gym to get even 5K people at games. I suspect for some of the other schools it would be cost prohibitive too.
Using current contract data is a bit misleading. The question is, what happens in the future? What kind of TV deal will the new Big East get? How much will be funneled to basketball? Losing Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville will put a dent into their basketball money and visibility. Will the new deal be ESPN exclusive? Probably not. That's going to lower their potential money. Losing their guaranteed BCS auto-bid will hurt their TV profile and lower their potential money as well.

We will learn a lot when the Big East finally signs a TV deal. Of course, by then Boise and SDSU could be back in the Mountain West or even in the PAC 12. I don't think Larry Scott specifically mentioning Boise and SDSU recently was just idle hypothetical chat.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:28 PM   #424 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Originally Posted by College Hoops View Post
FWIW. Adam Zagoria of SNY had a blog today indicating that under the current tv contract each bb school receives 1.56 million per year. I've never seen reliable published info on what the NEW A-10 contracts, but I suspect the A-10 schools would be happy if they were getting 50% of what the BE schools currently get. While the BE certainly is not what it once was in either fb or bb, the football franchise poses a trickle down benefit to the basketball onlies. I think the question to ask is whether or not the bb schools get the same money under the new contract or not. If it stays about the same there really isn't any reason for them to look at a bb only conference. The bb onlies of the BE have a 2/3 majority vote until July 1, 2013 at which the fb schools come into the conference and have the majority. Rather then dissolving the conference, I could see them reaching out to several A-10 schools along with Creighton, bringing them into the BE. They keep the voting majority, they retain the BE brand, they keep the contract with Madison Square Garden in place, and they'll offer a good bb product.

By the way, with respect to the BE onlies lacking on-site facilities, I think that is a legit concern. I lived clsoe to Seton Hall a couple of years ago and they don't have room on campus to build a new facility nor is it likely they can renovate their gym to get even 5K people at games. I suspect for some of the other schools it would be cost prohibitive too.
I believe you already have a partial answer to your question. The CURRENT BE contract generates $1.56mm per hoops school. A recent analysis of where they would end up under the new configuration - PRIOR TO LOSING RUTGERS AND UL - suggested a low-end number approximating $1.06mm. Again, before they lost Rutgers and UL.

With those two losses, and with the increasing instability in the market, brought about by widespread speculation that the Big4 haven't finished making their moves yet, it would appear as though the networks have the leverage to offer a lower number, regardless of how badly it is perceived that they're all fighting for content.

Certainly, if we're not there already, then the loss of UConn, for purposes of determining the television value of that league, would be a material blow to the BE's ongoing TV economics, if not a mortal blow to them.

BTW, I think most people here agree that the value of any program in this conference or the value of any program in any other conference is first and foremost based on the number of NCAA Tournament units the program garners for the conference, as far as basketball at this level is concerned. Those units are about money, prestige and brand enhancement.

There is no reason to name names here. The A10's challenges are obvious.

NIT appearances stopped mattering in the early '60's. They mean little to nothing here. Virtually no money, if any, and only a little market awareness lift.

Winning records, per se, are valuable for the indirect assist they provide on seeding for the NCAA participants, assuming that winning record is well built in the OOC. With that noted, it still is important for ALL conference mates to make the Dance now and then. SBU may be small and it may not be all that well positioned for what's coming, but I can't think of another program that carries its weight as well as the Bonnies do around here, especially coming out of the destructive welding scandal era.

If fans of certain programs get butt-hurt reading that and otherwise conclude that the fans of certain other programs are arrogant or pompous or whatever, they have the opportunity to use their energy otherwise to go after their school's administration to make them understand the strategic importance of having a strong athletic program at their institutions.

Abject failure simply isn't defensible. Whether you like it or not, collegiate sports have become big business. Do what's needed to thrive or don't do that and wither. But don't complain about the programs that actually are holding up their end of the bargain, it only amplifies the failings of your school.

Overall, were every program in the A10 truly aligned right now, I doubt the so-called Catholic Conference would get a mention. Why is their abundant press about the idea of the BE Catholic hoops schools raiding the A10 and not the other way around? Rhetorical question. I can't imagine I have to type an answer for that here.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #425 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

I believe that the new A-10 tv contract will generate about 350k per school annually.

The tv revenue that Big East schools currently get far exceeds that (A-10 amount) and in effect partly subsidizes their operations. A diminished hybrid league or basketball only league will see much less tv revenues and likely also hurt ticket revenues (loss of high profile opponents). The basketball onlies are not only looking at falling further behind the big boys (as they get ever more tv revenues) but instead are looking at getting less than they do now. This will in turn make it difficult just to maintain their programs at current levels. The thought that a Depaul or other basketball onlies will be able to invest big monies into infrastructure in the future will be an even more difficult prospect than now (and many have chosen not to do that to date).
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:51 PM   #426 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

Some very well thought out posts in this thread. The issue isn't just the money in the TV contract, though as Zagoria's source notes, the money is still better for the BB schools attached to a weakened BE than without football. The other big issues are their concern about potential losing the BE brand and access to MSG for the tournament. Beyond that no one knows when and in what manner the power conferences are going to act. given that uncertainty I think they're still some time off from making the decision to end their affiliation with FBS schools. I think in that regard the fact that UL was added to the ACC and not UConn, increased the BB members desire to remain attached to the FBS members somewhat. It wouldn't surprise me if they get a satisfactory contract in place that they add one or two BB members both to strengthen basketball quality and to lay the groundwork for a possible split in the future. But until the B1G and the SEC do something, everyone else is stuck in limbo.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:55 PM   #427 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

I've read somewhere that Boise has an escape claus in their Big East contract that if TV revenues are split w/ less than 70% going to the football side, they can leave w/o penalty or a significantly reduced penalty. Same article said Houston has an escape clause if TV revenues fall below some expected level (can't recall if the threshold was listed or not).

If the boise contract report is true, you can all but garuntee the football side will be getting at a minimum 70%, and perhaps even more if its needed to satisify the football side of things to keep things together.

The Big East's current deal nets roughly $40 mil a year, IIRC. I'm no TV Exec, but lets say b/w all the departures, additions, uncertainty, etc... the total Big East TV deal nets $60 mil a season. $60 mil * 30% / 16 teams on the BBall side = $1.125 mil per team on the BBall side. What if they "only" get the $40 mil they're getting now? That's $750k. What if its less? The people at those schools aren't stupid, I have little doubt that somewhere along the lines, they've talked to TV execs and they have a basic idea of how much they could generate if the broke off independently (thru whatever means) and added a handful of teams. With the right combination teams (and we've debated that a ton)I have little doubt they could generate a TV contract north of the $350k the A-10 allegedly gets right now.

How close they could get to what they are being offered as part of the current Big East deal is going to be the end driving point. I'm sure somewhere out there, there's a plan for the BBall onlies, plus UConn, UC, Temple, Memphis, etc... with the football side finding a home elsewhere. The Bball only side had a chance to grab the reigns and drive the future of the conference. they let football drive everything, while watching the best football programs all leaving or hopefully of leaving for "greener pastures". how much is it going to cost to send the Volleyball and baseball teams to Houston, Dallas & New Orleans every year.

In short, the BBall only side likely has a good idea of what a BBall only conference is worth, they probably have a good idea at this point w/ the current makeup of the Big East moving forward is worth. For better or worse, they appear to be holding on to the football side for now.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:16 PM   #428 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

Well done, Medford!

I say let the BE BB boys stew in their own juices. As more and more of their recognizable FB schools leave, their TV contract specs will be scaled downward. The BB-7 will need us more than we need them to achieve the elite level. But there is no denying that both they and we have some heavy "ballast" that would prevent a total amalgamation of the two from becoming what was so exciting about the Big East When everyone looked forward to watching the Monday Night Big East games on ESPN and before it added FB to the menu.

As this whole thing plays out, more and more fans of the supposed "have" programs of the Basketball Centric Conferences are realizing that their former dreams of teaming with the BE BB schools to form a new Conference or a new Big East is losing much of its appeal. Many are now saying that the risks of doing so don't outweigh the successes of their current situations.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #429 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

It might seem the BB only schools have voting leverage for some period of time, but I wonder if new BE members (not yet playing football in the league) got a vote when they were accepted? After all, decisions made between the two different dates would affect their future.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:10 PM   #430 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I've read somewhere that Boise has an escape claus in their Big East contract that if TV revenues are split w/ less than 70% going to the football side, they can leave w/o penalty or a significantly reduced penalty. Same article said Houston has an escape clause if TV revenues fall below some expected level (can't recall if the threshold was listed or not).

If the boise contract report is true, you can all but garuntee the football side will be getting at a minimum 70%, and perhaps even more if its needed to satisify the football side of things to keep things together.

The Big East's current deal nets roughly $40 mil a year, IIRC. I'm no TV Exec, but lets say b/w all the departures, additions, uncertainty, etc... the total Big East TV deal nets $60 mil a season. $60 mil * 30% / 16 teams on the BBall side = $1.125 mil per team on the BBall side. What if they "only" get the $40 mil they're getting now? That's $750k. What if its less? The people at those schools aren't stupid, I have little doubt that somewhere along the lines, they've talked to TV execs and they have a basic idea of how much they could generate if the broke off independently (thru whatever means) and added a handful of teams. With the right combination teams (and we've debated that a ton)I have little doubt they could generate a TV contract north of the $350k the A-10 allegedly gets right now.
I have no doubt that the BE basketball onlies could likely command a bigger tv contract that would net them more than the A-10 350k/ school annually. I would think that number however would be much closer to the A-10's figure and is likely to be substantially less than they currently get and be far what the new super conference teams will get.

Another item to consider is the automatic NCAA bid. If the Big East is dissolved, I believe that they would lose their automatic NCAA bid. I woudl think that there would be at large worthy teams from their league, but there would be no automatic bid for several years. This can hurt a league. Just consider the times when an A-10 team won our tourney and got an unexpected bid adding the number of teams from the league (think SBU last year).
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:59 PM   #431 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I have no doubt that the BE basketball onlies could likely command a bigger tv contract that would net them more than the A-10 350k/ school annually. I would think that number however would be much closer to the A-10's figure and is likely to be substantially less than they currently get and be far what the new super conference teams will get.

Another item to consider is the automatic NCAA bid. If the Big East is dissolved, I believe that they would lose their automatic NCAA bid. I woudl think that there would be at large worthy teams from their league, but there would be no automatic bid for several years. This can hurt a league. Just consider the times when an A-10 team won our tourney and got an unexpected bid adding the number of teams from the league (think SBU last year).
I am pretty sure that the NCAA can give waivers so that would eliminate the waiting period. I'm not totally sure what the requirements are for said waiver, but it is possible.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #432 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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I am pretty sure that the NCAA can give waivers so that would eliminate the waiting period. I'm not totally sure what the requirements are for said waiver, but it is possible.
I believe that you are correct that the NCAA can make exceptions. I think this was the case with the MWC when it was formed from the old WAC. It however is no given and with the play in games of today probably less likely if it means an additional automatic.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:06 PM   #433 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

http://sulia.com/channel/college-foo...source=twitter

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On Friday I tweeted a report about Georgia Tech and Virginia, which turned out to be inaccurate -- for the time being. I can only offer my apologies to the people I misled. Changes in the ACC are on the cusp of fruition, but today is not that day.

The reality is that NCAA conference realignment is one of the more complex issues today in sports. Powerful people inside various universities have certain agendas. My sources, no matter how influential and credible they may be, indeed were not enough to run with a story of this magnitude. I found out the hard way.

I vow to not be defined by this error in judgment and look forward to interacting with all of you through various media platforms.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:15 AM   #434 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Much of the allure of the Catholic Big East basketball only members is and has been derived from their membership in the Big East and association with schools such as Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn. That has allowed these schools to reap television revenues, tv appearances, and be able to rent large off campus venues. Things will be much different going foward for the Catholic basketball onlies. Their revenue streams are going to fall far behind the big boys and hurt their ability to compete at the highest levels (coaches, recruits, on court).

They have been able to do so due to their inclusion in the Big East of the past. These general public casual fans may not support these schools to the same degree if they are not in a top national conference regularly bringing in the high profile schools. Reality is quickly changing for the BE Catholic basketball onlies and it is not getting better for them. The athletics model that once worked for them may not in the future.
Brilliant post.

From the 1940s to early 1974s, the Catholic schools were extremely good basketball teams:

Catholic schools won 19 of 27 NITs from 1943-1970, and had 21 Final Four participants from 1939-1974 (six champs).
And non-catholic private schools had their share too. Since football money entered college athletics, virtually all public schools, plus Duke, Syracuse, the Big East Hoops Only's

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Between the perspective you offered and the pictures duq81 posted, there should be cause for concern for how viable that group can be moving forward.

We'll see what happens. Your post is consistent with fan reaction from a number of the BE hoops schools; they're deeply concerned about their ability to remain relevant and can only see themselves going into reverse from here. Their not all that way. Some have enough vision to suggest putting together the so-called national conference or a mix of the top of the BE hoops schools with some A10 schools.
Yeah, for the top of the A-10, a Big East split is a chance to trade the bottom of the A-10 for a better peer group. But that's a downgrade for them, I agree.

The reason the BE7 are stronger is the football ties. And most of that stems from the inability to create a "Big East" of their own in the Midwest. Lord knows they tried.

There was a 1975 summit of football independents, with about 24-30 schools discussing conferences.
The details never really got sorted out, and there was all kind of infighting and they couldn't agree on anything. They ultimately scrapped the plan. But the Metro Conference (1977), Big East (1979) and Midwestern Collegiate (1979) -- all basketball-only conferences -- spawned from that group within the next four years.

That was also where the Big East originally had the idea to start a football. But in the meantime, the ACC, SEC and Big Ten added schools like Ga Tech, Florida State, South Carolina; and when Conference USA came about, they had the mediocre football leftovers.

Had that 1975 meeting worked out and started something like:
Big East: BC, Syracuse, Temple, Penn State, Va Tech, VCU, East Carolina, South Carolina, Miami | St Johns, Nova, Hall, Prov, G'Town, Duquesne, Charlotte
Big Midwest: Pitt, Cincinnati, Louisville, West Virginia, Memphis, Georgia Tech, Tulane, Southern Miss, Florida St |Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, Saint Louis, Butler, Xavier, Dayton.

That's two powerful 16-team hybrid conferences (9 and 7 each) and there'd have been SEVEN power conferences this whole time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antboy View Post
I'm surprised there aren't more leaks involving some of the A10 schools joining up with remnants of the Big East basketball only schools. It'd be good leverage to use in getting their way in conference decisions. In fact, a subset of the A10 could pretty easily reorganize as the A14 or something with a few Big East teams and exclude anyone they wanted. I would imagine even if the A10 is a better conference than the leftovers in the Big East, that this might be an appealing option to some programs.
There's nothing to leak. Everyone knows that if the BE split, any A-10 school would love to join up.
Xavier and Dayton and Duquesne probably have called the Big East Seven and said "If you can force football out, we'd love to join" and the Big East Basketball Schools are saying "Yeah, we know. You've been telling us this since 1985."

Last edited by jpschmack; 12-04-2012 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:20 AM   #435 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by College Hoops View Post
I think the question to ask is whether or not the bb schools get the same money under the new contract or not. If it stays about the same there really isn't any reason for them to look at a bb only conference. The bb onlies of the BE have a 2/3 majority vote until July 1, 2013 at which the fb schools come into the conference and have the majority. Rather then dissolving the conference, I could see them reaching out to several A-10 schools along with Creighton, bringing them into the BE. They keep the voting majority, they retain the BE brand, they keep the contract with Madison Square Garden in place, and they'll offer a good bb product.

By the way, with respect to the BE onlies lacking on-site facilities, I think that is a legit concern. I lived clsoe to Seton Hall a couple of years ago and they don't have room on campus to build a new facility nor is it likely they can renovate their gym to get even 5K people at games. I suspect for some of the other schools it would be cost prohibitive too.
I think the actions of the Big East speak volumes the BB-Only plans: With 7 of the 11 votes, they added Tulane as an all-sports member. They don't do that if they want to split or force football out.

The Big East Seven are not going to LEAVE, and they are going to try and remain tied to the best football conference that will join them. It may turn into the Sun Belt around them, but they want to be tied with football as long as possible.
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