More BCS realignment - Page 49 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

Bona84 · 12-13-2012, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Title_BU

I was about to post that. If the 7 are leaving and they discussed 3, that doesn't sound arbitrary. 10 is the perfect conference round-robin size.

Not speculating either way (or any way, based on all the speculated alignments on here), but some would say that 9 is the perfect round-robin size. 9 provides for 16 conference games, allowing for more opportunities for strong non-conference opponents. Having said that, if your conference is strong, I'm not sure it really matters.

Bona84 · 12-13-2012, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostonspider

My only big issue with muddy's analysis is that the university presidents are going to look at institutional fit as well as athletic fit. 11 of the 12 schools he mentioned are fairly similar, though DePaul is surprisingly large at 15,000 undergrads. The rest are under 10,000 and are all highly selective private universities. VCU is a huge 24,000 undergraduate state university with a very different academic focus and mission. I just do not see the institutional fit that I would see with either Duquesne or Richmond.

St. John's is rather large, as well, with over 15,000 undergrads, and over 21,000 when you consider grad students. Having said that, it doesn't change your point about institutional fit.

BrownIndians85 · 12-13-2012, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duq81

Here's a possibility that's a long shot, but probably more likely than any of the BE7 joining the A10. The BE7 are going to invite 5 teams. Xavier, St. Louis, Dayton, either Butler or Creighton, and one eastern school, likely VCU or Richmond, with Duquesne a long shot. The 4 midwestern schools added to Marquette, and DePaul, make for a nice division, as do the other 6. What to do for the schools left behind? Approach UConn, and UC, and propose to sponsor an 8 school football league. UConn, UC, Temple, Memphis, E Carolina, USF, UCF, and UMass. If other schools want to join for football only, add them if they make sense. This would be a 16 team league for all other sports. Why would UConn and UC want to join this instead of being off on their own? Simple, while they might not be thrilled about playing the Dukes and Bonas of the world, those schools are no worse than playing Tulane and SMU, and are much closer, and are located in the same markets that the BE schools have long played in. UConn and UC should be driving this bus, and the other schools will likely follow their lead. Bernie should at the very least, have this scenario in mind. Would it be a great league, no, but it would probably be a bit better than the current A10, so what's not to love. This league could actually have the potential to surpass the Catholic league.

duq81, short term this sounds like a real good idea. Long term, I think being affiliated with schools having FBS aspiration is bad news. Don't get me wrong, I would love a schedule that included UConn, Temple, Cincinnati, Memphis, and UMass. However, I would not like knowing that my conference could fall apart any day of the week between now and an eventual 4x16 football super conference scenario.

I think the biggest question here is who really has the position of power, the BE7 or the A-10? The A-10 cannot kick members out without lawsuits. So, while it would be nice to add the BE7 and become a 21 team league and not hurt anyone's feelings, that's bordering on ridiculous. No, the A-10 would probably rather be in a position where they could pare down and add the BE7, but they can't legally do that. So, I really feel the BE7 has the upper hand here and can cherry-pick the A-10. Then it comes down to either a faction of the A-10, or the schools individually, to decide their next move. Leave a stable league, or create a new, BB only, stable league.

I know my personal opinion doesn't matter, but I think DePaul, Seton Hall, and Providence, for lack of a better term, suck. It's too bad they are in a position of power, because I think most (not quite all) of the A-10 schools can make a case for being more attractive than any and all of those 3.

Muddy Waters · 12-13-2012, 06:01 AM

Temple Cannot Stop Catholic Dissolution of Big East (UPDATED) (Adam Zagoria - December 12, 2012)

Even though it is a full voting member of the Big East, Temple cannot stop the Catholic dissolution of the conference, a source with direct knowledge told SNY.tv.

"They could not stop it," the source said. "There’s language within the bylaws or the contracts that basically they or the football group could not stop that from happening. There’s some kind of clause pertaining to the dissolution of the league where it doesn’t apply. There’s a loophole there somewhere."

We previously reported that the seven Catholic schools – DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John’s, and Villanova — had the necessary two-thirds vote to dissolve the conference over the three remaining all-sports schools — Cincinnati, UConn, and South Florida.

The five schools that announced they are leaving the Big East — Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Notre Dame, and Rutgers — no longer have voting privileges within the league.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters earlier today

Here's the new 12-team basketball conference as I see it:

2011-12 NCAA Men’s Basketball Attendance (ncaa.org)

New Big East Conference - 12 Schools

Code:

Rk. University   Attendance

13. Marquette    15,138
28. Dayton       12,154
35. Georgetown   11,283
39. Xavier       10,155
44. Villanova     8,923
54. St. John's    8,428
63. Providence    7,883
66. Saint Louis   7,757
67. DePaul        7,740
70. VCU           7,622
76. Seton Hall    6,941
78. Butler        6,599

As previously posted, I would not consider VCU to be a 'lock' just yet, but rather, I would consider VCU to be the best 12th team available.

East Division

Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Virginia Commonwealth

West Division

Butler
Dayton
DePaul
Marquette
Saint Louis
Xavier

A 12-school conference comprized of two distinct geographic areas is ideal for a 16-game conference schedule (each team plays the other 5 teams in its own Division twice each season, and plays the 6 teams in the other Division once each season), and for an all-inclusive post-season Conference Tournament (the Top 4 teams overall get a first-round bye).

tman · 12-13-2012, 06:06 AM

Dayton has spent the last twenty years improving its non revenue sports at the expense of its basketball program. So when the call came from the Big East, we would be ready.

During that time, the price for season ticket holders has increased by 600 percent for many lower Arena seats.

Yet here we are about to be overlooked by the new Big East and passed by the likes of X,St.Louis, Butler, VCU and perhaps others.

Had Dayton focused more attention to raising the profile of its Basketball Program, Dayton could be in a position of Power.

Instead the U scheduled 10 home games each season against nobody state, cashed alot of checks and the Baskeball program did not elevate its profile. The baseball team is better but in the end Dayton will be on the outside looking in.
Forging perhaps its last opportunity to join a dream conference.

Dayton has only Dayton to blame.

P.S.
We play Florida International Saturday -Who's going?

RF1 · 12-13-2012, 06:10 AM

On the Providence board they are saying they are hearing that if the split occurs, the involved schools want a 10 team conference with round robin home and home scheduling format. That would mean only three additional schools. There were even rumblings in the Chicago Sun-Times that Notre Dame might have interest in this proposed league given the rumors of teams wanting out of the ACC. If it is only 1-3 additional teams, who would be targeted? I would think if the number of schools was that low, Dayton would in an extremely precarious position given its proximity to Xavier. If ND wanted in and it would only be two other schools, I would think Xavier and SLU would be the targets.

**a10nick** · 12-13-2012, 06:10 AM

The BE7 will almost certainly stay together as a "building block" for something better. Logic would cause one to believe that one of the following scenarios (or some version of one of them) will result:
Preface: Adam's suggestion that Xavier will be the only invitee to form an 8-member Conference is highly unlikely at best. Such a situation would provide for only a 14-game Conference schedule. The following are far more likely:
The Big East 9: Butler and Xavier would be invited to join in order to maintain the current footprint of the 7 while adding two decent-sized media markets and fan bases.
The Big East 10: Creighton would be added to the mix to stretch the footprint farther west while adding a traditional top quality program and one of the best fan bases in the country.
The Big East 12: To create two geographical divisions, each with 6 good media markets, fan bases and facilities, the following two programs would be added to the 10: VCU or Richmond in the East and St. Louis in the West.

I can find no reason to expand beyond 12. By doing so, you would invoke the "Law of Diminishing Returns." And this whole Conference Realignment business is all about money (and establishing the best possible Basketball-Driven Conference in the eastern half of the US --- which, once again, is all about money!).

Title_BU · 12-13-2012, 06:15 AM

It was more than a year ago that these schools had a conference call and it was leaked all over the net (I even saw it on the XU board) that XU & BU would be the targets. I'm sure it's still over there, but it could've been 18 months ago. This isn't really new knowledge.

After that? I'd imagine market will be their focus.

Quinn · 12-13-2012, 06:24 AM

So much conflicting information out there. You have the Big East officially stating Temple is a full voting member, Temple AD Bradshaw saying the same. Now ESPN says they are indeed a full voting member but don't have a full vote. Huh? Yeah, they are a "full" voting member, but don't have a vote on the dissolving of the conference. Sorry, that's not a full vote, that's a partial vote.

Sorry to say this, but if it's true, and pending the legal/financial ramifications, it will effect the A10. If the 7 CAN leave and KEEP all their money, as well as Big East name and even MSG...it means we would likely say goodbye to 3 A10 members (Xavier with likely St. Louis and Butler). It'd be a big blow to the conference and a huge hit on a school like Dayton.

Knobby · 12-13-2012, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW

Unprovoked face on Mateer by Knobby.

I only picked on Mateer becasue he was the last one to post when I started writing mine.

Let me restate it as [Fill in the blank's] merger plan...

Reading this thread is f-ing comical as I watch each "fan" go into fantasy sports mode and start throwing others under the bus. X leaves Dayton out of their dream scenario, others leave Fordham out, or the Dukes or those hillbillies up in Olean. Then people get all butt-hurt over the insults.

This is great stuff - really.

Of course speculation is going to run rampant around all of this - isn't that the definition of "message board"? The high comedy is the underlying authority of which many of the "fantasy" posts seem to come from. "How could Dayton NOT be included...." for example? Someone actually posted that "with 48K of views, some AD's must have seen this" (or something like that...) Are you F-ing kidding me? These AD's could give two schidts about the fan's perspective with the one exception of where they empty their wallets....

Bona84 · 12-13-2012, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a10nick

The BE7 will almost certainly stay together as a "building block" for something better. Logic would cause one to believe that one of the following scenarios (or some version of one of them) will result:
Preface: Adam's suggestion that Xavier will be the only invitee to form an 8-member Conference is highly unlikely at best. Such a situation would provide for only a 14-game Conference schedule. The following are far more likely:
The Big East 9: Butler and Xavier would be invited to join in order to maintain the current footprint of the 7 while adding two decent-sized media markets and fan bases.
The Big East 10: Creighton would be added to the mix to stretch the footprint farther west while adding a traditional top quality program and one of the best fan bases in the country.
The Big East 12: To create two geographical divisions, each with 6 good media markets, fan bases and facilities, the following two programs would be added to the 10: VCU or Richmond in the East and St. Louis in the West.

I can find no reason to expand beyond 12. By doing so, you would invoke the "Law of Diminishing Returns." And this whole Conference Realignment business is all about money (and establishing the best possible Basketball-Driven Conference in the eastern half of the US --- which, once again, is all about money!).

This is striking fear in the Basement Headquarters...

Keith Braswell · 12-13-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a10nick

The BE7 will almost certainly stay together as a "building block" for something better. Logic would cause one to believe that one of the following scenarios (or some version of one of them) will result:
Preface: Adam's suggestion that Xavier will be the only invitee to form an 8-member Conference is highly unlikely at best. Such a situation would provide for only a 14-game Conference schedule. The following are far more likely:
The Big East 9: Butler and Xavier would be invited to join in order to maintain the current footprint of the 7 while adding two decent-sized media markets and fan bases.
The Big East 10: Creighton would be added to the mix to stretch the footprint farther west while adding a traditional top quality program and one of the best fan bases in the country.
The Big East 12: To create two geographical divisions, each with 6 good media markets, fan bases and facilities, the following two programs would be added to the 10: VCU or Richmond in the East and St. Louis in the West.

I can find no reason to expand beyond 12. By doing so, you would invoke the "Law of Diminishing Returns." And this whole Conference Realignment business is all about money (and establishing the best possible Basketball-Driven Conference in the eastern half of the US --- which, once again, is all about money!).

This is dead on. Everything I am hearing is that Dayton will be left out. Xavier will not pull the little brother along anymore, they are on their own.

twisted3829 · 12-13-2012, 06:50 AM

I just really hope everyone in the league ends up in a hood position they are satisfied with (not everyone will be happy but hopefully everyone is satisfied)

**agoo101284** · 12-13-2012, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostonspider

My only big issue with muddy's analysis is that the university presidents are going to look at institutional fit as well as athletic fit. 11 of the 12 schools he mentioned are fairly similar, though DePaul is surprisingly large at 15,000 undergrads. The rest are under 10,000 and are all highly selective private universities. VCU is a huge 24,000 undergraduate state university with a very different academic focus and mission. I just do not see the institutional fit that I would see with either Duquesne or Richmond.

If VCU was that concerned about institutional fit, they wouldn't have joined. Next season's 14 team conference will have three publics, and no one within 9,000 students of their total enrollment.

This is college athletics, academic concerns are invalid. If academics were really that important, UConn wouldn't be the only big team out of the tournament this year, graduation rates would matter, and Kentucky's one-and-done superteam would be penalized in someway.

There is only one question that matters in how this all shakes out: How much money can we earn? That's why Temple and Charlotte are leaving because there's more money in football, even for non-football schools. That's why the Big East looks like it does now. Its only about the money.

College Hoops · 12-13-2012, 07:17 AM

While Providence, DePaul Seton Hall and St. Johns are hardly the epitome of recent success on the court, nor under different circumstances would be targets in building a conference, I find it hard to believe that their isn't an agreement amongst the seven BE schools to act in concert. Further, this agreement on a go forward basis would entail that all seven be in the same conference.The possibilities going forward are almost endless, and in large measure may not be linked by academic profile, but by what is going to generate its members the most dollars be it a 10,12,18, or 21 member conference.

12-13-2012, 06:06 AM	#725 (permalink)
tman Player Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 759 Rep Power: 0	Re: More BCS realignment Dayton has spent the last twenty years improving its non revenue sports at the expense of its basketball program. So when the call came from the Big East, we would be ready. During that time, the price for season ticket holders has increased by 600 percent for many lower Arena seats. Yet here we are about to be overlooked by the new Big East and passed by the likes of X,St.Louis, Butler, VCU and perhaps others. Had Dayton focused more attention to raising the profile of its Basketball Program, Dayton could be in a position of Power. Instead the U scheduled 10 home games each season against nobody state, cashed alot of checks and the Baskeball program did not elevate its profile. The baseball team is better but in the end Dayton will be on the outside looking in. Forging perhaps its last opportunity to join a dream conference. Dayton has only Dayton to blame. P.S. We play Florida International Saturday -Who's going? Last edited by tman; 12-13-2012 at 06:44 AM.

12-13-2012, 06:10 AM	#726 (permalink)
RF1 Star Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,749 Rep Power: 12506	Re: More BCS realignment On the Providence board they are saying they are hearing that if the split occurs, the involved schools want a 10 team conference with round robin home and home scheduling format. That would mean only three additional schools. There were even rumblings in the Chicago Sun-Times that Notre Dame might have interest in this proposed league given the rumors of teams wanting out of the ACC. If it is only 1-3 additional teams, who would be targeted? I would think if the number of schools was that low, Dayton would in an extremely precarious position given its proximity to Xavier. If ND wanted in and it would only be two other schools, I would think Xavier and SLU would be the targets.

12-13-2012, 06:10 AM	#727 (permalink)
a10nick -LIFETIME MEMBER- Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 1,508 Rep Power: 283887	Re: More BCS realignment The BE7 will almost certainly stay together as a "building block" for something better. Logic would cause one to believe that one of the following scenarios (or some version of one of them) will result: Preface: Adam's suggestion that Xavier will be the only invitee to form an 8-member Conference is highly unlikely at best. Such a situation would provide for only a 14-game Conference schedule. The following are far more likely: The Big East 9: Butler and Xavier would be invited to join in order to maintain the current footprint of the 7 while adding two decent-sized media markets and fan bases. The Big East 10: Creighton would be added to the mix to stretch the footprint farther west while adding a traditional top quality program and one of the best fan bases in the country. The Big East 12: To create two geographical divisions, each with 6 good media markets, fan bases and facilities, the following two programs would be added to the 10: VCU or Richmond in the East and St. Louis in the West. I can find no reason to expand beyond 12. By doing so, you would invoke the "Law of Diminishing Returns." And this whole Conference Realignment business is all about money (and establishing the best possible Basketball-Driven Conference in the eastern half of the US --- which, once again, is all about money!). __________________ I just want the team I support to be in a stronger conference. I'd prefer it to be a stronger A-10! To me that would mean every member would have at least 2 trips to the NCAA Tourney and 5 winning seasons during each 10-year cycle. It would also be great for every program to seriously challenge for a league title (either regular season or Tourney) at least once during that same period of time.

12-13-2012, 06:15 AM	#728 (permalink)
Title_BU 6th Man Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 335 Rep Power: 7011	Re: More BCS realignment It was more than a year ago that these schools had a conference call and it was leaked all over the net (I even saw it on the XU board) that XU & BU would be the targets. I'm sure it's still over there, but it could've been 18 months ago. This isn't really new knowledge. After that? I'd imagine market will be their focus.

12-13-2012, 06:24 AM	#729 (permalink)
Quinn Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: LA, CA Age: 37 Posts: 731 Rep Power: 121	Re: More BCS realignment So much conflicting information out there. You have the Big East officially stating Temple is a full voting member, Temple AD Bradshaw saying the same. Now ESPN says they are indeed a full voting member but don't have a full vote. Huh? Yeah, they are a "full" voting member, but don't have a vote on the dissolving of the conference. Sorry, that's not a full vote, that's a partial vote. Sorry to say this, but if it's true, and pending the legal/financial ramifications, it will effect the A10. If the 7 CAN leave and KEEP all their money, as well as Big East name and even MSG...it means we would likely say goodbye to 3 A10 members (Xavier with likely St. Louis and Butler). It'd be a big blow to the conference and a huge hit on a school like Dayton. __________________ ~ Quinn A10 FanNet: All the A10 Forums in one location... @ncaasports csi.com/facebook Looking for a schools forums or Conference Realignment News? Try NCAA Message Boards Directory

12-13-2012, 06:50 AM	#733 (permalink)
twisted3829 Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,447 Rep Power: 31507	Re: More BCS realignment I just really hope everyone in the league ends up in a hood position they are satisfied with (not everyone will be happy but hopefully everyone is satisfied) __________________ 2010-2011 Lock of the Day Contest NIT Champion

12-13-2012, 07:17 AM	#735 (permalink)
College Hoops 6th Man Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 336 Rep Power: 8224	Re: More BCS realignment While Providence, DePaul Seton Hall and St. Johns are hardly the epitome of recent success on the court, nor under different circumstances would be targets in building a conference, I find it hard to believe that their isn't an agreement amongst the seven BE schools to act in concert. Further, this agreement on a go forward basis would entail that all seven be in the same conference.The possibilities going forward are almost endless, and in large measure may not be linked by academic profile, but by what is going to generate its members the most dollars be it a 10,12,18, or 21 member conference.

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