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More BCS realignment

143K views 1K replies 144 participants last post by  Medford 
#1 ·
It's being reported all over that the Big Ten is in the process of inviting Rutgers and the University of Maryland into the conference.

The invites could take place as early as Monday.

Speculation from there includes the idea that the ACC would invite UConn to take the place of UM.

Needless to say, that may be all she wrote for the Big East.
 
#290 ·
I wish the southern Ivies conference had gotten going way back when. Vanderbilt, Rice, Tulane, SMU, Duke, etc.

Obviously it was never even close to happening, but I am more and more drawn to the current Ivy League because I know all the schools there care about a) school b) being in a conference with like minded schools.
 
#293 ·
If the sh*t hits the fan with the ACC (more raids by the B1G, SEC and Big 12)........the ACC just might invite St. John's, Georgetown and Nova eventually. The ACC would never be able to add enough quality football schools to replace the departed.......so they might just go after top quality hoops/markets and those 3 would fit the bill.

The ACC could end up looking like this eventually:

BC
UConn
Syracuse
Temple
Pitt
Cincinnati

Memphis
Louisville
Duke
Wake Forest
Central Florida
South Florida

*Notre Dame
*St. John's
*Nova
*Georgetown

* All sports excluding football

This may be the best that the ACC can do if the unthinkable happens.

The A-10 could go after DePaul and Marquette........possibly Providence and Seton Hall as well.
 
#294 ·
The day that providence and URI end up in the same conference is the day that the state of RI finally falls in the ocean.

This would be because the ground would shake with all the URI fans laughing after 30 years of supposed PC superiority, and the ocean would come fill the vacuum left by the deep gasps from the PC fans of having "sunk" to URI's level
 
#297 ·
when I think of big cities, I must confess that Omaha is not the first thing to come to my mind. Or even medium sized cities.
 
#308 ·
As soon as the Big East stops getting raided it will be the ACC. Football is king and the ACC offers a very inferior product and contract compared to the Big Ten/Big12/SEC/Pac10. VTech/FSU/Clemson/UNC/Georgia Tech are all going to be prime targets to move. Having football first schools in a basketball first conference just doesn't work. It will ruin the Big East and ACC.
 
#316 ·
As soon as the Big East stops getting raided it will be the ACC.

Having football first schools in a basketball first conference just doesn't work.

It will ruin the Big East and ACC.
Astute observations, vaNtR. I can't say I disagree.

Thanks for the link, xudash.

This may be the most relevant article published to date as far as Xavier and Dayton are concerned.

All bad blood between our two schools aside, Xavier and Dayton have excellent facilities, fill 10,000+ seat arenas regularly, have high market penetration for local TV converage of their basketball teams (i.e. a lot of people watch their games), good basketball traditions, and a nationally-known rivalry.

The Presidents and Athletic Directors of Xavier and Dayton need to 'think outside the box' concerning this excerpt from Gregg Doyel's excellent article:

Basketball in the Big East is being run over.

The Big East is the last to know it, but that's how it usually is. The closer you are to a situation, the more warped your vision -- and the Big East looks blind. The league has assumed a strategy of quantity over quality, adding a mish-mash of illogical schools in a failing effort to stay relevant, and schools like St. John's and Georgetown are taking it. Just letting it happen. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

The writing is on the wall. Everyone, and I mean everyone, can see the end game here. Eventually the NCAA will be split by football -- schools that play it at the Division I-A level on one side, everyone else on the other.

Know where that leaves St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall and Providence? On the wrong side.

But still they flail along, these fish on this oil slick, as their conference extends one silly invitation after another. Boise State? San Diego State? Tulane? That's ridiculous.

A few weeks ago when Aresco announced a divisional alignment that would split the league into the Big East East and Big East West -- no, really -- he said it "gives the conference and its fans the best of both worlds -- national exposure that is a result of the Big East being in six of the top 10 U.S. media markets [and] a schedule that focuses on spirited regional rivalries."

Boise State vs. San Diego State, closer to each other than to anyone else in the Big East, and still 1,000 miles apart. Memphis vs. Tulane. East Carolina vs. anybody.

Those rivalries aren't spirited today, won't be tomorrow, won't be -- ever.

Meanwhile, St. John's just takes it. So do Georgetown and the Big East's other non-football schools, schools with something SMU and Central Florida and Tulane don't have in a marquee sport: Tradition. Prestige. Accomplishment. Georgetown and Villanova have won national titles in men's basketball. St. John's, Providence and Seton Hall have made a combined five Final Four appearances. These schools stand for something, or they did.

Now they stand around, watching expansion happen to them. Every school that can leave the Big East, has. Schools that can't get invitations to other BCS leagues continue to join the Big East to build themselves up, and then -- like Virginia Tech, Miami (Fla.), West Virginia, Rutgers and Louisville -- make a run at a better league. Actual headline in the Cincinnati Enquirer on Wednesday, one day after the ACC picked Louisville and not the Cincinnati Bearcats: "UC remains stuck in the Big East."

New motto for Big East: You're stuck here!

Meanwhile, league originals like St. John's and Georgetown are living in fear, attaching themselves to Big East football like a sucker fish on a shark, hoping to survive. It's a shortsighted strategy based on fear. Instead of forming a coalition of five -- think of five fingers becoming one fist -- and telling the Big East what to do, Villanova and Providence and the others are doing as they're told. How's that working out, Seton Hall?

The opportunity has now arrived for the Presidents and Athletic Directors of Xavier and Dayton to be proactive and make the first move.

Step 1: Get Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU on board, creating a 5-school secret cartel with a proposal for 5 Big East basketball schools.

Step 2: The 5 Atlantic 10 schools invite 5 Big East schools to join them in a new conference - America's Basketball Conference (ABC) or another new conference name.

1. Marquette
2. Georgetown
3. Villanova
4. St. John's
5. Providence

2011-12 NCAA Men’s Basketball Attendance (ncaa.org)

Code:
[b]Rk. University  Attendance

[color=blue]13. Marquette   15,138[/color]
[color=red]28. Dayton      12,154[/color]
[color=blue]35. Georgetown  11,283[/color]
[color=red]39. Xavier      10,155[/color]
[color=blue]44. Villanova    8,923
54. St. John's   8,428
63. Providence   7,883[/color]
[color=red]66. Saint Louis  7,757
70. VCU          7,622
78. Butler       6,599[/color][/b]
There are a lot of advantages for the 10-team basketball conference:

1. Ten schools means cuttting the TV rights pie into fewer pieces.

2. An 18-game conference schedule: every school plays the other 9 schools twice each season.

3. An attractive conference tournament in which the Top 6 teams get a first-round bye.

4. Inherent stability of the conference.

5. Having 5 schools from both conferences means than neither the former A10 nor former BE schools would dominate the other concerning conference policy decisions. Call it 'parity of esteem'.

6. Adding an 11th school (and cutting the pie into 11 pieces) or adding an 12th school (and cutting the pie into 12 pieces) would reduce the revenue per school, i.e., the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in, considering which additional schools would be available as an 11th or 12th school.

The Dominoes . . .

1. Temple and Charlotte are departing the Atlantic 10 in 2013-14 to pursue their football aspirations.

2. Expect UMass and Richmond to do the same in the not-too-distant future.

3. Former Big East basketball schools Seton Hall and DePaul will be free agents after being expelled by the crappy-football-is-king Big East.

4. Seton Hall and DePaul accept invitations to join the depleted Atlantic 10.

5. Manhattan, Canisius, and Niagara also accept invitations to join the Atlantic 10, which will then be comprised of:

1. Canisius
2. DePaul
3. Duquesne
4. Fordham
5. George Washington
6. La Salle
7. Manhattan
8. Niagara
9. Rhode Island
10. St. Joseph's
11. St. Bonaventure
12. Seton Hall

. . . and soon pales into insignificance.

 
#315 ·
#323 ·
Creighton is a no-brainer for basketball purposes, but do they actually want their non-revenue sports like tennis or soccer having to fly to the east coast for most league games? That would seem to get extremely expensive. I can't imagine their board would go for it. For my money, George Mason and Detroit (because of the new market and recruiting pipeline) would be great additions. I'd love to have Davidson, but they're not going anywhere.
 
#326 ·
13. Marquette 15,138
28. Dayton 12,154
35. Georgetown 11,283
39. Xavier 10,155
44. Villanova 8,923
54. St. John's 8,428
63. Providence 7,883
66. Saint Louis 7,757
70. VCU 7,622
78. Butler 6,599

I could live with this if you take out UD and replace them with St. Joes. What Muddy and the other dilussional UD fans don't get is that it isn't about attendance, it's about the big dance. It about getting there and advancing. UD's track record compared to St Joes's in the NCAA tournament over the last 20 years is night and day. UD has no bargaining power to move to a better league, it's time they realize this.
 
#328 ·
I don't understand the fascination with revamping the A10 as it is anyway. Lose Temple? Fine, add Butler and VCU. This league isn't driven by football dollars, and so, I think we are sitting pretty well in terms of being raided for teams to bail. Maybe SLU? But who else? Really? I do really believe that this league has a very solid footing, with no need to really expand or worry about programs leaving.
 
#332 · (Edited)
Media market only truly matters if you are starting a network. The Big Ten went after Rutgers and Maryland because it can get the Big Ten Network on basic cable in the NY, Baltimore, and DC markets now. That instantly adds millions of subscribers at around 40 cents per house, per month. They could care less how many people actually watch those schools. Ratings in Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin and Nebraska alone cover all the ad revenue they will ever need.

CBS, NBC, and soon Fox are going after football in an attempt to get in more homes. They are going after basketball simply for ratings when there's no football to show. The A10, or any current, future, or hypothetical basketball league will get deals based on how many people watch, not on how many homes you may bring. Basketball doesn't bring homes. It's a niche TV sport. It doesn't matter if you are in NY or Laramie, Wyoming, if people aren't watching, companies aren't paying for commercial time. This is why I don't understand the A10's commitment to Fordham, but that's another thread altogether (Title: Kick Fordham out and invite George Mason).

St Joe being in a redundant market with Vilanova doesn't matter when it comes to ratings. It may matter to Vilanova simply to protect their turf for recruiting athletes and students. Dayton and Xavier both have established basketball markets with a history of high ratings for local broadcasts, and a history of very high ratings for all basketball games. That's huge. That's why both are likely high, if not in the top two spots on the hypothetical short list should the Big East basketball schools ever need to branch out (we're closer to when than if, really). Creighton would be up there as well. Then probably St Joe and VCU.
 
#333 ·
Media market only truly matters if you are starting a network.

The A10, or any current, future, or hypothetical basketball league will get deals based on how many people watch, not on how many homes you may bring.

St Joe being in a redundant market with Vilanova doesn't matter when it comes to ratings.

If an A-10 team is on TV and the Flyers are off, do you watch the game?
 
#339 ·

Muddy’s Observations:

(1) The Presidents and Athletic Directors of Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU should be acting solely in the best long-term interests of their respective schools. That’s what they are all being paid six-figure salaries to do.

(2) When the conference realignment merry-go-round finally stops, it is my opinion that the best possible outcome for Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU is the following:


2011-12 NCAA Men’s Basketball Attendance (ncaa.org)

America’s Basketball Conference (ABC)

Code:
[b]Rk. University   Attendance

[color=blue]13. Marquette    15,138[/color]
[color=red]28. Dayton       12,154[/color]
[color=blue]35. Georgetown   11,283[/color]
[color=red]39. Xavier       10,155[/color]
[color=blue]44. Villanova     8,923
54. St. John's    8,428
63. Providence    7,883[/color]
[color=red]66. Saint Louis   7,757
70. VCU           7,622
78. Butler        6,599[/color][/b]

(3) The Presidents and Athletic Directors of Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence should also be acting solely in the best long-term interests of their respective schools.

(4) It is my further opinion that the best possible outcome for Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence is the ABC shown above. But as Gregg Doyel pointed out in his article, they haven’t realized that just yet.

(5) If Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence leave the Big East, I don’t give a damn about what happens to the BE thereafter, and neither should the Presidents, Athletic Directors, alumni, and fans of those schools. The concept of 'conference loyalty' is highly over-rated. If you don’t believe that, review the previous 338 posts on this thread.

(6) Despite what they might say in public, the Presidents and Athletic Directors of Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence are not concerned with the future fortunes of DePaul and Seton Hall.

(7) If Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU leave the Atlantic 10, I don’t give a damn about what happens to the A10 thereafter, and neither should the Presidents, Athletic Directors, alumni, and fans of those schools.

(8) Throughout its 37-year history, the Atlantic 10 Conference has always been in transition and has always been a stepping stone for schools who want to move to a 'better' conference (i.e. Atlantic 10 member schools have always acted in their own self-interests).
History

The Atlantic 10 Conference was founded in 1975 as the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League (ECBL), and began conference play in 1976. At that time, basketball was its only sport. After its first season, it added sports other than basketball and changed its name to the Eastern Athletic Association.

However, despite its official names, it was popularly known as the Eastern 8, as it then had eight members – Villanova, Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, George Washington, Massachusetts, Pittsburgh, and Rutgers.

(9) The Atlantic 10 in 2014-15 (prior to further departures / expansion) ?

Code:
[b]   University        Attendance

1. Duquesne          3,204
2. Fordham           2,343   
3. Geo. Washington   2,561 
4. La Salle          2,209  
5. Massachusetts     4,279 
6. Rhode Island      3,829
7. Richmond          5,660
8. St. Bonaventure   3,926
9. St. Joseph's      4,197[/b]
America’s Basketball Conference (ABC)in 2014-15 ?

Code:
[b]Rk. University   Attendance

[color=blue]13. Marquette    15,138[/color]
[color=red]28. Dayton       12,154[/color]
[color=blue]35. Georgetown   11,283[/color]
[color=red]39. Xavier       10,155[/color]
[color=blue]44. Villanova     8,923
54. St. John's    8,428
63. Providence    7,883[/color]
[color=red]66. Saint Louis   7,757
70. VCU           7,622
78. Butler        6,599[/color][/b]

Apples and oranges.

 
#340 ·

Muddy’s Observations:

(1) The Presidents and Athletic Directors of Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU should be acting solely in the best long-term interests of their respective schools. That’s what they are all being paid six-figure salaries to do.

(2) When the conference realignment merry-go-round finally stops, it is my opinion that the best possible outcome for Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU is the following:


2011-12 NCAA Men’s Basketball Attendance (ncaa.org)

America’s Basketball Conference (ABC)

Code:
[b]Rk. University   Attendance

[color=blue]13. Marquette    15,138[/color]
[color=red]28. Dayton       12,154[/color]
[color=blue]35. Georgetown   11,283[/color]
[color=red]39. Xavier       10,155[/color]
[color=blue]44. Villanova     8,923
54. St. John's    8,428
63. Providence    7,883[/color]
[color=red]66. Saint Louis   7,757
70. VCU           7,622
78. Butler        6,599[/color][/b]

(3) The Presidents and Athletic Directors of Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence should also be acting solely in the best long-term interests of their respective schools.

(4) It is my further opinion that the best possible outcome for Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence is the ABC shown above. But as Gregg Doyel pointed out in his article, they haven’t realized that just yet.

(5) If Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence leave the Big East, I don’t give a damn about what happens to the BE thereafter, and neither should the Presidents, Athletic Directors, alumni, and fans of those schools. The concept of 'conference loyalty' is highly over-rated. If you don’t believe that, review the previous 338 posts on this thread.

(6) Despite what they might say in public, the Presidents and Athletic Directors of Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, and Providence are not concerned with the future fortunes of DePaul and Seton Hall.

(7) If Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU leave the Atlantic 10, I don’t give a damn about what happens to the A10 thereafter, and neither should the Presidents, Athletic Directors, alumni, and fans of those schools.

(8) Throughout its 37-year history, the Atlantic 10 Conference has always been in transition and has always been a stepping stone for schools who want to move to a 'better' conference (i.e. Atlantic 10 member schools have always acted in their own self-interests).



(9) The Atlantic 10 in 2014-15 (prior to further departures / expansion) ?

Code:
[b]   University        Attendance

1. Duquesne          3,204
2. Fordham           2,343   
3. Geo. Washington   2,561 
4. La Salle          2,209  
5. Massachusetts     4,279 
6. Rhode Island      3,829
7. Richmond          5,660
8. St. Bonaventure   3,926
9. St. Joseph's      4,197[/b]
America’s Basketball Conference (ABC)in 2014-15 ?

Code:
[b]Rk. University   Attendance

[color=blue]13. Marquette    15,138[/color]
[color=red]28. Dayton       12,154[/color]
[color=blue]35. Georgetown   11,283[/color]
[color=red]39. Xavier       10,155[/color]
[color=blue]44. Villanova     8,923
54. St. John's    8,428
63. Providence    7,883[/color]
[color=red]66. Saint Louis   7,757
70. VCU           7,622
78. Butler        6,599[/color][/b]

Apples and oranges.

Those are all great points if the league was based on attendance. However, if the league were to be based on basketball ability, you might want to replace Dayton with Weber State.
 
#341 ·
$ drive these decisions.
Football $ dwarf basketball $.
Both $ come more from TV than home court attendance.
If you were forming a league and had the choice between two teams based on home attendance:

A - @ 18,000/game

B - @ 9,000/game

If you chose A, you would have BYU, instead of B = Duke.
 
#342 ·
Muddy, I don't see the Big East schools that you mentioned ditching their long-standing rivals of 30 years (I'm talking about DePaul and Seton Hall.)

Whether you dislike those two school or not, if a basketball-centric conference would be formed, I would bet on those two being in there.
 
#343 ·
In all seriousness, I really don’t understand the idea that Xavier and Dayton would be “high, if not the top two spots on the hypothetical short list” for the BE basketball schools.

I understand Dayton has great attendance numbers… and that’s great for the UD athletics department. And I get it’s a big basketball city. But where does the notion come that UD gets really high TV ratings? If that were the case, wouldn’t UD get on a national, ESPN network more than once or twice a year (excluding any tournaments)? By comparison, Xavier gets 7,8, or 9 on an ESPN network annually (excluding any tournaments)... plus every single game televised.

UD doesn’t bring much, if anything, to the table basketball-wise (I'm not talking academic reputation or other non-revenue sports) except their attendance numbers and fan support. I don’t see how a local, mid-major, underwhelming program that has won a single NCAA game in 22 years and has the national relevance/ratings to only get 1-2 games on an ESPN network per year is one of the “top two spots” for association with the BE basketball schools.
 
#344 ·
Bingo. Dayton brings hardly anything to the table. Muddy keeps on bringing up attendance because that is the ONLY positive thing UD can point too. I can promise you that Xavier would not be disappointed if UD was left out of the next conference they join.
 
#346 ·
The problem with all these scenarios is wishful thinking. Villanova's attendance looks good because they play Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, etc at the wells fargo center. these major schools have large alumni which makes for good crowds and good TV ratings. The usual Catholic schools have small alumni bases. Who really cares about 'Nova vs Providence or Seton Hall? No matter what these schools do, they will experience a severe revenue drop. This appears the reason they are trying to hang on with the football schools. IF UConn nor Syracuse no longer plays SJU at the Garden, what kind of crowds would they draw? Not much. As the big schools pull out of the BE, what is left will be CYO.
 
#371 ·
These pics give you an idea of how the only real difference between these programs, and schools like Duquesne, Bona, LaSalle, and GW, is that the former chose, or were able to join the BE, and the latter schools didn't. If those schools were in the A10, many of them would be playing in those gyms.
 
#359 ·
No sh!t. Thanks Boston. That puts things into perspective. Sucking at the teets of the football schools for so long that it chased all of them into NBA arenas for the most part. At least Nova put up the Pavilion in the 80's (I think). But those pictures are telling.
 
#358 · (Edited)
PC plays at the dunkin donuts center which is about 5 minutes from campus

it was also recently renovated and PC only shares the building with the providence bruins
 
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