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Old 11-20-2012, 08:22 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Originally Posted by twisted3829 View Post
Tough to continue big east football name when you lose everyone. Uconn and Rutgers are definitely gone, Louisville wants out, SDSU and Boise st are backing out, I expect Houston and SMU to back out if all that happens then you are left with Cincy, south Florida, temple and navy for football and they won't be able to bring in any big schools. At best they are a cusa or mac level league.
But they are still the owners of the name.. and it still has perceived value.

And a lot more value than anything that would have to be created from scratch.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:22 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Tough to continue big east football name when you lose everyone. Uconn and Rutgers are definitely gone, Louisville wants out, SDSU and Boise st are backing out, I expect Houston and SMU to back out if all that happens then you are left with Cincy, south Florida, temple and navy for football and they won't be able to bring in any big schools. At best they are a cusa or mac level league.
You are leaving out Memphis and UCF, but that does not change much.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:31 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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My apologies..

In the hypothetical expansion would you rather have Fordham or Villanova? St John's or Villanova?

I understand the decision based on markets and size but there has to be a factor of quality of program.

Especially since the contract has already been drawn out now for quite a while now so the contract isn't changing any time soon.
Definitely St. Johns and Villanova, possibly all 3. I don't think the conference should have more than 2 teams in one market. There are many different scenarios that could work. This could mean you kick Fordham out only, you kick someone else out also or you don't kick anyone out and go 18.

And again, I will make it clear that I understand why Fordham would be on the chopping block, I just don't think 3 in Philly makes sense when the argument for not adding some better programs was that the area is already covered or the facilities are lacking (Georgetown). It's not like St. johns has a great on campus facility and sure they use MSG but in that case GU uses the Verizon and they are fundraising to improve what they have on campus.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:37 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

For years, Villanova University has schemed to keep other Philadelphia schools as far away as possible from the Big East. For years, VU has sought to dictate terms to the rest of the Big 5. For years, VU and its fans have lorded its haughty superiority over the rest of the locals. If the Big East does, in fact, implode and VU comes crawling on its hands and knees to the A10 for a new home, I'm sorry but, regardless of what they bring to the table (which is pretty significant), I would be only happy to tell them to pound sand. My, my, how the mighty will have fallen.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:45 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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For years, Villanova University has schemed to keep other Philadelphia schools as far away as possible from the Big East. For years, VU has sought to dictate terms to the rest of the Big 5. For years, VU and its fans have lorded its haughty superiority over the rest of the locals. If the Big East does, in fact, implode and VU comes crawling on its hands and knees to the A10 for a new home, I'm sorry but, regardless of what they bring to the table (which is pretty significant), I would be only happy to tell them to pound sand. My, my, how the mighty will have fallen.
What do you think SJU would vote on that one? What about LSU?

Does the A10 require only majority vote for additions to take place?
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:48 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

So the basketball outliers in all this are schools like Temple and Memphis - schools with football but possibly left with no affiliation in such if the BE disintegrates?

Would it be worth is for schools like these to be in a conference with the likes of St. John's, G'town and 'Nova just for the BE brand and the ability to also be in a big-time basketball conference? I think the answer is yes.

The question is are there 8 schools like this that could partner as the football side of the BE so that the league can stay together - worth it to the bball schools for the ability to remain as the BE and as a basketball power, and worth it for the football schools b/c they are schools that wouldn't get invites to the superconferences?

Temple
Memphis
UMass
Navy
?
?
?
?

Where I think people are going astray in their thinking is b/c of the wide swath the BE tried to take to keep AQ status - going after TCU, Boise, etc. If they cut those plans and just stick with mostly East Coast teams with good/very good hoops programs and who also happen to have football (but are on the wrong side of the big boys) then I think the BE can endure. It might feel like a BE/CUSA hybrid, but compared to potential alternatives, it seems okay.

Let me ask Temple fans - would you rather be in a conference with the BE bball schools for football and hoops and share football revenue with them or have the BE dissolve and look to find a new home? I don't know that I need an answer, actually.

Also, anyone who thinks the A10 should take Depawful needs to remember that they play the majority of their games 10 miles from campus in front of 2000 people. Chicago is a pro town primarily, don't get caught up in the market viability of a dead weight program whose only press is about their terrible-ness.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:52 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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What do you think SJU would vote on that one? What about LSU?

Does the A10 require only majority vote for additions to take place?
I think both would be indifferent on it. Both schools focus on regional recruits for the most part and Nova will generally pick up recruits from NYC and Philly (a few)..

Nova wasn't good last year and doesn't look to be that good this year or the next couple years either.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:56 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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Originally Posted by SDW View Post
So the basketball outliers in all this are schools like Temple and Memphis - schools with football but possibly left with no affiliation in such if the BE disintegrates?

Would it be worth is for schools like these to be in a conference with the likes of St. John's, G'town and 'Nova just for the BE brand and the ability to also be in a big-time basketball conference? I think the answer is yes.

The question is are there 8 schools like this that could partner as the football side of the BE so that the league can stay together - worth it to the bball schools for the ability to remain as the BE and as a basketball power, and worth it for the football schools b/c they are schools that wouldn't get invites to the superconferences?

Temple
Memphis
UMass
Navy
?
?
?
?

Where I think people are going astray in their thinking is b/c of the wide swath the BE tried to take to keep AQ status - going after TCU, Boise, etc. If they cut those plans and just stick with mostly East Coast teams with good/very good hoops programs and who also happen to have football (but are on the wrong side of the big boys) then I think the BE can endure. It might feel like a BE/CUSA hybrid, but compared to potential alternatives, it seems okay.

Let me ask Temple fans - would you rather be in a conference with the BE bball schools for football and hoops and share football revenue with them or have the BE dissolve and look to find a new home? I don't know that I need an answer, actually.

Also, anyone who thinks the A10 should take Depawful needs to remember that they play the majority of their games 10 miles from campus in front of 2000 people. Chicago is a pro town primarily, don't get caught up in the market viability of a dead weight program whose only press is about their terrible-ness.
Very good last paragraph and very true... The A-10 is in the position to cherry pick from the BE if it chooses to do so.. They are talking from the strong position.

Also do not forget about Creighton
I would invite them before DePaul, Providence, Seton Hall and St. John's. Also, based on current and immediate future projections of program, I would invite them over Villanova.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:05 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

SDW:

My guess is that Memphis eventually gets into a superconference. The ACC could add another three teams to get to 16, the Big 10 two more teams, the Big 12 six more teams and if the SEC expands, another four more slots.

Heck, I could even see the Big 10 considering Temple.

The upshot is, I expect the football Big East to either collapse or become another MAC.

Ace:

If the A-10 adds teams, I think we have to look for brand name, success AND facilities. Nova has all three.

Seton Hall, Gtown and St. Johns do not, though the Johnnies have a better court situation.

Fordham, as you know, would be in much better position if the school had invested in a new arena.

Frankly, I donít think the league ever should have invited the Rams in without an ironclad commitment to a new arena Ė a promise Fordham fans would have supported.

Having said that, I honestly think the league should put LaSalle on notice. Upgrade or else. Doesnít have to be huge. Something like Hofstra, or somewhat bigger than the Hawksís new digs. Right now LaSalle has the second worst arena in the league.

On Depaul: I donít have strong feelings for that program. Chicago is a pro town much like Boston and college teams donít get a whole lot of support.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:12 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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That would leave the seven remaining Big East basketball schools in a fix. Nova, PC, Seton Hall, St Johns, Marquette, Depaul and Georgetown............

My plan would envision adding Marquette and Villanova, jettisoning Fordham and adding St. Johns..........

If UMass leaves, the A-10 could also offer either Depaul, Georgetown or Providence. (As a UMass fan, I do not want to leave the A-10.)...........

From my perspective, most basketball-only Big East teams donít add much for the A-10. If we cherry pick a few, that destroys whatís left of Big East basketball and the leftover programs will wither and dry up on the vine..............

Beyond that, we really donít need any other Big East teams.

We have Rhode Island covered and donít need PC.

We have GW and donít need Georgetown, another school that lacks a good on-campus arena.

We donít need Seton Hall to recruit kids from Jersey. The A-10 and the rest of the country have been doing that for years. Seton Hall lacks a nice campus arena and they have long been a league straggler.
This is exactly why Notre Dame went to the ACC and the certain A-10 schools that are being hypothetically added to a make believe conference is just being illogical. Those schools do not bring anything that the A-10 schools do not already have. What does Providence, DePaul and St. Johns bring? Are they that much more successful of basketball programs that our current bottom feeders URI, Duquesne and Fordham. St Joe's, and even La Salle, are in better footing than Villanova right now (see final RPIs last year and preseason/projected 2012-13 finishes). This leaves Marquette and Georgetown as the true catches in this deal. Why would the A-10 schools leave a very pretty situation to join 2-3 schools.

It is MUCH easier to take on those schools within the A-10 structure, the premier non-BCS basketball conference in the NCAA.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:13 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

I think the league should focus on maintaining basketball rivalries, renewing old ones ore creating new ones that could take root easily. That would guide my expansion decisions.

As a basketball league only that hasn't expanded like crazy, the A-10 needs to have a clear identity in its own region and around the nation. And that identity would be of a league that did a better job maintaining rivalries than the big conferences.

The big conferences have destroyed or ruined a number of rivalries with geographical dispersion and it will take decades to establish new ones. The A-10 should not follow suit.

That's why I would not invite Creighton. The A-10 doesnt need Nebraska - Nebraska! As for Nova, the response by Hawkamaniac proves my point. The rivalry and dislike is already there. Nova and SJU hating each other in the same conference is a good thing! (-:
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:15 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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It is MUCH easier to take on those schools within the A-10 structure, the premier non-BCS basketball conference in the NCAA.
I agree entirely. Don't blow something up that is pretty successful. The Catholic league dream would mimic the creation of the original C-USA.

The A-10 should add from a position of strength, and if necessary, kick out 2-3 members without clear commitments in writing. Every other conference is ruthlessly looking out for itself. Our league has to do the same.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:18 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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SDW:

My guess is that Memphis eventually gets into a superconference. The ACC could add another three teams to get to 16, the Big 10 two more teams, the Big 12 six more teams and if the SEC expands, another four more slots.

Heck, I could even see the Big 10 considering Temple.

The upshot is, I expect the football Big East to either collapse or become another MAC.

Ace:

If the A-10 adds teams, I think we have to look for brand name, success AND facilities. Nova has all three.

Seton Hall, Gtown and St. Johns do not, though the Johnnies have a better court situation.

Fordham, as you know, would be in much better position if the school had invested in a new arena.

Frankly, I donít think the league ever should have invited the Rams in without an ironclad commitment to a new arena Ė a promise Fordham fans would have supported.

Having said that, I honestly think the league should put LaSalle on notice. Upgrade or else. Doesnít have to be huge. Something like Hofstra, or somewhat bigger than the Hawksís new digs. Right now LaSalle has the second worst arena in the league.

On Depaul: I donít have strong feelings for that program. Chicago is a pro town much like Boston and college teams donít get a whole lot of support.
Agreed. It is time to put up or shut up.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:20 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

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That's why I would not invite Creighton. The A-10 doesnt need Nebraska - Nebraska!
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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on September 21, 2011 View Post

Creighton is in f**king Nebraska, and the good folks in Providence, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. don't want to travel that far to play basketball.

Or any other sport.

The prospect of Creighton actually receiving an invitation to join a non-football Big East Conference is so remote that it isn't worth thinking about, let alone discussing.
Sorry, Bluejays.

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Re: More BCS realignment

Some general responses/thoughts to recent posts here:

1. Is it truly possible that the BE will split?

Of course it is, because it's all about math; it's all about the value of the television agreement that is eventually put into place. Per other articles I've read, the BE football members presently receive approximately $4 million per school. Prior to this recent round of BE disintegration, analysts were projecting a range of about $5 million to $7 million per school (with the Boise, et al additions). By way of comparison, C-USA schools are receiving $2 million.

Not only will the BE never see the 5/7 deal show up, but it may now be looking at numbers that are worse than the present deal, especially with the loss of the NJ/NY market and the most likely loss of the CT/NY market, not to mention that, for purposes of the BE, UConn and Rutgers are important members. When you're this close to the margin, the net deal becomes important, because travel for this set-up truly will be a royal pain in the butt. Beyond this, nobody is sitting in the negotiating room now believing that the word "stability" should be allowed in the room. The exit clauses for Houston and Boise State clearly evidence how quickly and easily this thing can be unwound. Frankly, I'm surprised they let themselves get tangled up as much as they have; part of the exit provision should have included a "free out" clause in the event any material member (defined) decided to leave the conference prior to those schools formally joining it. In other words, Boise, SDSU and Houston should have the right to move to the MWC for free now.

As Chet noted, any school in their right mind should be able to see the writing on the wall at this point. The very conference that you thought was once your salvation has not only managed to lose its BCS status, getting lumped in with other subordinated conferences, but, because of that and other actions being taken by the Big4 conferences, it is literally being reduced to rubble as its better programs actively move to or seek shelter from the more stable conferences.

Can the BE split up? Absolutely, and in a New York minute if the Big4 actually are presently in the process of moving towards establishing the 4x16 model now. What would be left of the BE at that point for football purposes most likely would not be enough to justify the small, incremental amount of money available to the basketball schools for being in a conference with directional schools and Tulane. More to the point, the very composition of the conference wouldn't be right - - what would these schools have in common to sustain them as partners?

2. If the split occurs and the basketball schools begin to engage in realignment, does the BE have leverage or does the A10 have leverage?

I don't know if I differ with WH on this, but I'm looking at it from a different angle. Why change how all this decisioning is getting done at this point: the television people will guide this as well, based on what's best for the hoops-centric conference that they'll position as the preeminent hoops conference in the nation. If the BE hoops schools retain certain BE rights, nomenclature, and dollars, it's going to be in the catbird seat. Then the negotiating leverage per school will be a function of how attractive each school's program and institution is to the new conference. Otherwise, assuming the BE hoops schools are kind of standing out in the cold with no assets from their tattered conference, the A10 would have to rise from its perceived status, convincing the television suites that it's brand is the one to drive, once Marquette, Nova, Georgetown and St. Johns have been "acquired."

3. Should - when - the 4x16 model comes to pass, will the behemoths break off from the unwashed masses to form their own gig for basketball as well?

Absolutely no. The NCAA Tournament, as structured, is truly one of the greatest sporting events on the annual calendar. It's winning formula is inclusiveness, underdogs against titans and ascending drama through three weekends. The economic - television - value of first round games involving sub-par teams like Northwestern and Clemson would crush advertising and the economic value of the tournament. Secondly, the football schools have always been about solving and are continuing to solve for football. Finally, were the 4x16 to attempt to gobble up basketball as well, they would have both a PR nightmare and most likely legal action confronting them. This was always about football for them. Their moves in football will help them more than hurt them when it comes to garnering more NCAA Units from the existing top-shelf event anyway.


Now it's serious for the A10 and for the BE hoops schools. The hoops schools can go another round - stay with UL, UC, Temple and Memphis, risking that they'll settle in some somewhere else at some point. That's the hoops schools point of view: looking at those institutions for basketball attractiveness purposes. Otherwise, UL is the only athletic program of the 4 that comes close to warranting consideration by an at-risk ACC or possibly B12 (though it's widely regarded that UL's academic profile is holding it back). The problem lies in whether football realignment accelerates now, causing the BE to lose UL in addition to losing UConn and Rutgers.

Approximately 20 out of 120+ NCAA D1A programs are cashflow neutral or positive. THAT is a scary statistic. Suffice it to note that realignment isn't finished yet. It's getting closer, but it isn't finished yet.
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