More BCS realignment - Page 82 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

jpschmack · 12-17-2012, 09:46 PM

It's not like the BE7 starting with 10 teams means Dayton's permanently shut out.

If Dayton and VCU take over for Xavier and Temple and make the dance 4 out of 5 years each, what do you think is going to happen?

DistrictBaller · 12-17-2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xavierhoops

Xavier and Temple will continue to earn NCAA bids on a near annual basis.

The NCAA selection committee doesn't "set aside" 3 bids per year for the Atlantic 10 conference.

I'm not seeing the logic where Xavier and Temple and St Louis leave the A-10, yet the A-10 keeps chugging right along getting the same number of bids... "that will just happen every year now." Other than Dayton (if they don't get a conference invite), I don't see any other team really capitalizing on more NCAA bids.

I'm just not that high on an A-10 consisting of Dayton, Richmond, UMass, Bona, George Mason, La Salle, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Fordham, George Washington.

Hi, we're VCU, have we met?

bprichard · 12-17-2012, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpschmack

It's not like the BE7 starting with 10 teams means Dayton's permanently shut out.

If Dayton and VCU take over for Xavier and Temple and make the dance 4 out of 5 years each, what do you think is going to happen?

I prefer not to have an if statement contingent upon something we have not done once in the modern history of the NCAA tournament.

DistrictBaller · 12-17-2012, 10:02 PM

I certainly think VCU could make the dance fairly regularly, especially in the new A-10, but I don't think it would change anything for VCU. If these decisions were solely about quality basketball, VCU would be in the conversation with some of the teams being rumored.

If Dayton were left out and then pulled off a dominant stretch like that, I could see them getting an invite.

jpschmack · 12-17-2012, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DistrictBaller

I certainly think VCU could make the dance fairly regularly, especially in the new A-10, but I don't think it would change anything for VCU. If these decisions were solely about quality basketball, VCU would be in the conversation with some of the teams being rumored.

If Dayton were left out and then pulled off a dominant stretch like that, I could see them getting an invite.

I mean no disrespect to VCU, because you've been good for a decade. But the consistent presence is why VCU and UD are the "second cut list." Obviously, the Duke win, then the Final Four those put you guys on the map, moved you up from CAA to A10. But it's 5 bids in the last 15 years? Dayton is at 4 in the last 15 years, too.

Xavier's made 9 of the last 10 NCAAs and like 14 of the last 17 or something. Gonzaga hasn't missed one since 1998, I think.

They're looking for that "every year, there's Gonzaga, Xavier and VCU" status. UD and VCU don't have that, or else it's a 12-team league.

Or you could just move the campus to Boston, then you'd only need one NCAA bid and a 16-14 average record in the last decade to be a lock!

tman · 12-18-2012, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamtheFlyer

jpschmack furthers illustrates why I do not fear Dayton getting left behind. Make no mistake, I want Dayton in. It would be really fun to see Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette on the schedule every year, and it would be quite the adjustment not to see Xavier twice.

But even if they are left behind, Dayton's destiny is still controlled by the same people who always controlled it...Dayton. NCAA bids aren't disappearing, they are only going to be added over time. Dayton's path to an at-large will still be based on the games Dayton wins or loses.

The Xavier rivalry would shift to OOC or go away, and anyone who has read my posts knows I have no issue with that. College basketball rivalries are never permanent, it's the nature of the game itself. There are no college basketball rivalries that match Ohio State/Michigan, Army/Navy, USC/Notre Dame, or Florida State/Florida. None. Not even Duke/UNC. Football games make or break a season, basketball rivalries make or break an evening. And hell, even iconic football rivalries disappear from time to time. Ask Texas and Texas A&M fans.

Notre Dame, Marquette, and DePaul used to be the biggest nights at UD Arena well before it was Xavier. Without Xavier, it would be someone new. VCU, Richmond, St Joes, George Mason...someone would emerge as a "circle the date" rival, probably sooner than most people think.

As a fan, I fear Dayton moving to the new league far more than I fear being left behind. It's a good fear, similar to proposing marriage, but a legit fear. Every program in the discussion has visions of going to the new league and leaping right to the top, but no one ever mentions the pit. It's possible Dayton isn't good enough, that they'd be the DePaul of that league. At least one of the A10 teams who leave will be, it's just common sense. Look at every mass realignment we have ever seen in college sports. There are always winners, and there are always losers. And then look at what becomes of the leagues that teams leave behind, rarely do they just crumble into dust. Dayton, or anyone, being forced to stay in the A10 is not a punishment.

Dayton was that loser once already in their 25 or so years as members of a conference. As much as I want Dayton in the new league, it is because of the Great Midwest failure that I don't fear the alternative. Dayton, and whoever else doesn't get the call, still control their destiny. Things will always work out over time if you go about the process in the right way. I think that's from Boy Meets World. The process trumps everything. New league or A10, my only concern is what Dayton is doing to improve every year.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.
Dayton has a chance to improve the program by leaps and bounds. This would be the biggest thing to hit Dayton since the Arena was built. College Basketball will be reduced to five or six power conferences and everyone else will be considered an after thought.

Yet here we are. UD fans unable to understand whats about to happen to college sports.
Forget records and RPI,,, BE vs A-10 ,this move is all about POTENTIAL.

And this new league has the POTENTIAL to be great. And possibly catapult Dayton Basketball to a level never seen in more than forty years.

The inability to comprehend what is at stake here is mind boggling.
This new conference has been on the minds and wishes for over forty years by Dayton fans.

Let me say the vast majority of Dayton fans understand whats at stake and they are crossing their fingers that Dayton will be included.

All others IMHO don't and never will have high expectations for the program.

paulxu · 12-18-2012, 08:20 AM

Guaranteed to warm the hearts of Butler and VCU fans everywhere:

http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/big...-league-945432

AdamtheFlyer · 12-18-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tman

I'm sorry, I don't understand.
Dayton has a chance to improve the program by leaps and bounds. This would be the biggest thing to hit Dayton since the Arena was built. College Basketball will be reduced to five or six power conferences and everyone else will be considered an after thought.

Yet here we are. UD fans unable to understand whats about to happen to college sports.
Forget records and RPI,,, BE vs A-10 ,this move is all about POTENTIAL.

And this new league has the POTENTIAL to be great. And possibly catapult Dayton Basketball to a level never seen in more than forty years.

The inability to comprehend what is at stake here is mind boggling.
This new conference has been on the minds and wishes for over forty years by Dayton fans.

Let me say the vast majority of Dayton fans understand whats at stake and they are crossing their fingers that Dayton will be included.

All others IMHO don't and never will have high expectations for the program.

Everything you said is something I have agreed with. I want the program I have been so passionate about since I was 5 to be included. It would usher in an entirely new era of UD hoops. I'm just saying if Dayton's number isn't called, I'm not going to throw a fit and panic.

No matter what league Dayton is in, their ability to do great things is solely based on what Dayton does. My focus is solely on Dayton, not how 7 other schools vote. If Dayton gets the call, I will pour a celebratory scotch and wonder how UD will go about becoming a championship level program in the new league. If they don't get the call, I will drink a PBR and wonder how Dayton will go about becoming a championship level program in whatever becomes of the A10.

Ride Captain · 12-18-2012, 09:28 AM

I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision. Dayton's women programs have slowly made their way to the forefront these past few years. Volleyball goes to the national tourney, I believe soccer is strong and the Lady Flyers are the only ranked team from the A10 and the BE7. Obviously there is no money in womens sports for the most part, but I'm sure the ADs would like to build on their programs and keep or create rivalries in their respective sports also. Thoughts?

bprichard · 12-18-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ride Captain

I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision. Dayton's women programs have slowly made their way to the forefront these past few years. Volleyball goes to the national tourney, I believe soccer is strong and the Lady Flyers are the only ranked team from the A10 and the BE7. Obviously there is no money in womens sports for the most part, but I'm sure the ADs would like to build on their programs and keep or create rivalries in their respective sports also. Thoughts?

If the BE7 considered all sports, it would be a huge help to Dayton and X (not that X needs any help). Sadly, I think the influence is negligible. The BE7 really want this to be a men's basketball led conference, and rightfully so since it's their identity.

Chalmers0 · 12-18-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ride Captain

I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision.

Short answer: None whatsoever

**agoo101284** · 12-18-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ride Captain

I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision. Dayton's women programs have slowly made their way to the forefront these past few years. Volleyball goes to the national tourney, I believe soccer is strong and the Lady Flyers are the only ranked team from the A10 and the BE7. Obviously there is no money in womens sports for the most part, but I'm sure the ADs would like to build on their programs and keep or create rivalries in their respective sports also. Thoughts?

I think La Salle was ranked in the past two seasons.

Ride Captain · 12-18-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agoo101284

I think La Salle was ranked in the past two seasons.

I was vague as usual. Currently, the Lady Flyers Basketball team is ranked #16. No other team from the A10 or BE7 is ranked at this time.

jpschmack · 12-18-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ride Captain

I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision. Dayton's women programs have slowly made their way to the forefront these past few years. Volleyball goes to the national tourney, I believe soccer is strong and the Lady Flyers are the only ranked team from the A10 and the BE7. Obviously there is no money in womens sports for the most part, but I'm sure the ADs would like to build on their programs and keep or create rivalries in their respective sports also. Thoughts?

It's defnitely a point in their favor. Being good in a lot of sports is the sign of a well-run athletic department with the infrastrure in place to be successful.

If the Villanova chart showed and proved anything, it's that there's nothing on an administrative level UD athletics hasn't done to be poised for membership in their new conference. It's not like any of the other sports success has come at the expense of men's basketball. There's a certain point where you've done all the administrative things you can. Dayton has scheduled to maximize RPI, funded their program to the necessary levels to compete.... they just haven't won CONFERENCE games they need to be winning to get at-large bids. You can't go 8-8 and expect a bid. You need to be 10-6, 11-5. At the end of the day, while college athletics is a business, you're not dealing with professionals. You're placing your livelihood in the hands of 18-22 year old kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalmers0

Short answer: None whatsoever

Ultimately, the decision is based on the MBB TV deal. That's why a Saint Louis team with a one NCAA bid in a decade can be ahead of Dayton or VCU.

If Dayton was in located Cleveland (of if Dayton had Cleveland's population), they'd be invited in a heartbeat. It's their proximity to Cincinnati that's pushing them to a second ballot status.

That being said, I really can't think of a valid reason the BE7 would think "We're better off without Dayton than with them."

DistrictBaller · 12-18-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpschmack

I mean no disrespect to VCU, because you've been good for a decade. But the consistent presence is why VCU and UD are the "second cut list." Obviously, the Duke win, then the Final Four those put you guys on the map, moved you up from CAA to A10. But it's 5 bids in the last 15 years? Dayton is at 4 in the last 15 years, too.

Xavier's made 9 of the last 10 NCAAs and like 14 of the last 17 or something. Gonzaga hasn't missed one since 1998, I think.

They're looking for that "every year, there's Gonzaga, Xavier and VCU" status. UD and VCU don't have that, or else it's a 12-team league.

Or you could just move the campus to Boston, then you'd only need one NCAA bid and a 16-14 average record in the last decade to be a lock!

I don't take any offense to your comments, but I'll attempt to clarify my position on the matter.

VCU as you have mentioned before has experienced its resurgence over the last 10 seasons with the hire of Jeff Capel. In that time VCU has been to 5 out of the last 9 NCAA tournaments, advancing in 3, and the other 2 being 1-point losses to Wake Forest (Chris Paul-led), and UCLA. We've had 2 top 20, first-round NBA draft picks, and progressed very steadily as a program. There is nothing to indicate that we should expect that progression to stall, and in fact we seem to trending upwards.

10 years is a fine and immediately relevant sample size, and we have been better at basketball in that time than either Dayton or Saint Louis. If it's about basketball, we're ahead of those programs. We are not going to be ahead of either X or Butler in that conversation though. That said, these decisions are not just about basketball, and I understand and accept that.

As a large, public institution, VCU does not fit the profile of schools that constitute the catholic, private school conference that seems to be forming. For that reason it is unlikely that VCU will get an invitation. If it's about basketball though, VCU certainly deserves consideration ahead of others that are being mentioned.

For the same reasons, VCU would be well-positioned to be one of the big dogs in the A-10 should it remain in this conference.

12-17-2012, 09:46 PM	#1216 (permalink)
jpschmack Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 529 Rep Power: 179697	Re: More BCS realignment It's not like the BE7 starting with 10 teams means Dayton's permanently shut out. If Dayton and VCU take over for Xavier and Temple and make the dance 4 out of 5 years each, what do you think is going to happen?

12-17-2012, 10:02 PM	#1219 (permalink)
DistrictBaller Veteran Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 1,124 Rep Power: 47196	Re: More BCS realignment I certainly think VCU could make the dance fairly regularly, especially in the new A-10, but I don't think it would change anything for VCU. If these decisions were solely about quality basketball, VCU would be in the conversation with some of the teams being rumored. If Dayton were left out and then pulled off a dominant stretch like that, I could see them getting an invite. __________________ "We will wreak havoc on our opponent's psyche and plan of attack." - VCU Head Coach Shaka Smart

12-18-2012, 08:20 AM	#1222 (permalink)
paulxu Veteran Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,361 Rep Power: 309022	Re: More BCS realignment Guaranteed to warm the hearts of Butler and VCU fans everywhere: http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/big...-league-945432 __________________ *...he went up late, and I was already up there.*

12-18-2012, 09:28 AM	#1224 (permalink)
Ride Captain Rookie Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 42 Rep Power: 0	Re: More BCS realignment I'm curious what kind of role womens athletics plays into the decision. Dayton's women programs have slowly made their way to the forefront these past few years. Volleyball goes to the national tourney, I believe soccer is strong and the Lady Flyers are the only ranked team from the A10 and the BE7. Obviously there is no money in womens sports for the most part, but I'm sure the ADs would like to build on their programs and keep or create rivalries in their respective sports also. Thoughts?

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