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Old 12-19-2012, 06:11 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by xu95 View Post
Muddy, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you know that article was written in 2003, when Dustin Dow actually worked for the Enquirer.
Muddy's not very good with facts, yet he is apparently very good at quoting 10-year old articles.

When we read all these blogs, stories, see these shows, you have to remember that as of now every single one of them is an opinion or based on opinion. ESPN breaks the story and says X, Butler, and possibly St. Louis, Creighton, and Dayton. So all the reputable... err.. major networks pick up on that and just regurgitate it. You read some smaller outlets, and they're the ones actually trying to generate some thought, by spewing what the big boys are saying and throwing another school into the mix just as fodder.

But at least stick to quoting sources from 2012.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:29 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams


It is evident that many posters on this board (and a few media commentators) either believe that Dayton will not be invited to join the new BE12 conference or are hoping that Dayton will not be invited to join the new BE12 conference (or both).

For whatever reasons, those people are choosing to ignore the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post

Muddy's Observations:

(1) Basketball Head Coaches think in terms of the next 4 years, and think about basketball.

(2) Athletic Directors think in terms of the next 10 years, and think about the university's athletic programs.

(3) University Presidents think in terms of the next 20 years, and think about the University's future goals, present aspirations, past associations and history, tradition, and the university's cultural identity.

(4) Presidents of Catholic universities think in terms of the next 30 or 40 years, tend to be very conservative, and are more comfortable with each other's company than with Presidents of non-Catholic universities.

(5) It is the Presidents of BE7 Catholic universities who will be making all of the decisions and casting all of the formal votes - not the Athletic Directors or Basketball Head Coaches.

(6) A lot of conflicting 'information' is being selectively leaked to the media by unnamed sources, many of whom may have agendas that differ from the Presidents of the BE7 universities. Don't believe everything you read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post

Post-Big East, Catholic 7 Imagine New League (Associated Press - December 18, 2012)
Split gives like-minded schools a chance to mold a new, custom conference.

It’s worth noting that five of the seven institutions now leaving the Big East are led by priests or members of religious orders.


Seton Hall installed its first lay President in 2010, and it’s widely believed that many such schools will soon follow, given the dwindling pool of academics from the clergy or religious orders.


That could encourage the current Presidents to try to put a mission-related stamp on the conference, a way to distinguish the schools in this particular league.

"It’s worth noting that five of the seven institutions now leaving the Big East are led by priests or members of religious orders:"

1. Rev. Dennis H. Holtschneider, President of DePaul University (DePaul University)


2. Dr. John J. DeGioia , President of Georgetown University (Georgetown University)
Quote:
Dr. DeGioia places special emphasis on sustaining and strengthening Georgetown's Catholic and Jesuit identity.

He is a member of the Order of Malta, a lay religious order of the Roman Catholic Church.

3. Rev. Scott R. Pilarz, S.J., President of Marquette University (Marquette University)


4. Dr. Chuan Yi Tang, President of Providence University (Providence University)


5. Dr. A. Gabriel Esteban , President of Seton Hall University (Seton Hall University)

Quote:
Dr. Esteban is committed to the institution’s 155-year Catholic mission.

6. Rev. Donald J. Harrington, C.M., President of St. John’s University (St. John’s University)


7. Rev. Peter M. Donohue, O.S.A., President of Villanova University (Villanova University)

In short, if the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities collectively decide to limit membership in the new conference to 10 schools, the three schools who will be invited will be Xavier, Dayton and St. Louis.

However, I strongly believe that the New Big East will be a 12-member conference with East and West Divisions.

If I am wrong and the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities do decide to limit membership to 10 schools, Butler will be left out, because five of the seven institutions now leaving the Big East are led by priests or members of religious orders.

This means that the Presidents of at least 4 out of 7 of the BE7 Catholic universities would have to choose Butler to join them 'forever' over Dayton or Saint Louis, and the majority of the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities (listed above) are just not going to do that. It' against their nature, against their mission, and against their tradition.

Taking into consideration who will actually be casting the votes at the future meetings to be held by the 7 Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities, I think Creighton has a better chance than Butler of getting the 11th invitation.

The 12th invitation is the most difficult to predict, primarily because a 12-member conference will require two Divisions (for scheduling purposes) and 5 of the BE7 Catholic universities are geographically in the East Division.

Finally, it is worth noting that there have been five types of sources of information posted on this MB about the BE7’s future intentions:
• published articles quoting Basketball Head Coaches,

• published articles quoting Athletic Directors,

• published articles quoting unnamed source(s) 'close to the program',

• tweets by people who are speculating, based on information from unnamed source(s),

• A10 MB posters claiming to know someone who has 'reliable unpublished information'.
Noticeably absent from the listing above is information from the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities, who are remaining tight-lipped about everything – much as you would expect from a President of a BE7 Catholic university.

It is clear that certain Basketball Head Coaches and Athletic Directors are attempting to influence the opinions and decisions of their university Presidents with their statements to the media on the subject, but Basketball Head Coaches and Athletic Directors have different priorities and agendas than the Presidents of Catholic Universities – none of whom have made their opinions publicly known to date, and quite likely won’t until after certain votes have been taken and the results of those votes released to the media.

Bottom Line:

There will be days, weeks, and possibly even months of speculation by the media and A10 MB posters before the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities voice their opinions on expansion in the form of formal, binding votes on expansion. The only thing that is certain at this point is who will be doing the voting – the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities listed above.


Last edited by Muddy Waters; 12-19-2012 at 07:56 AM. Reason: typos corrected.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:35 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

If you think this is coming down to religion and not money, you're as dumb as I think you are.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:30 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams


It's not about religion or money, although both will be taken into due consideration.

It's about politics and philosophy.

Four of the seven Presidents of the BE7 universities are Catholic Priests who report to Catholic Bishops (as well as their university's Boards of Governors or equivalent). These Catholic Bishops all know each other, meet with each other regularly, and quite likely have been giving 'advice' to the Catholic Priest Presidents who will be casting the votes concerning expansion.

Georgetown's Dr. John J. DeGioia reports to his superior in the Order of Malta (as well as Georgetown's Board of Governors or equivalent). The Order of Malta is seriously hardcore Catholicism which strongly emphasizes obedience to the Church and to the Order.

The Catholic hierarchy has been political since antiquity, and anyone who is familiar with the history of the Catholic Church already know this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post

Big East’s Seven Catholic Schools Set to Bolt from Crumbling League (New York Post - Dec. 14, 2012)
The seven schools — DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John’s, Seton Hall and Villanova — will look to add five schools and reconstitute themselves as a basketball-centric league with schools located primarily in urban Northeast markets.

This split is not about finances. It’s philosophical.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:36 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

I heard the pope was going to be the head of a search committee to find the best schools for the catholics to add.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:38 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

MHver3 ‏@MHver3

Xavier is the first school with an "invite" to the BEVer3. Bad news for Butler fans?


I believe this guy is regarded as being dubious some of the time, if not all of the time, but I don't understand his penchant for dramatic commentary. Why would X in first be bad news for Butler, assuming, as everyone does, that Xavier and Butler are essentially going in at the same time?

It's like conference realignment has become an internet reality show or something.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:43 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
Noticeably absent from the listing above is any information whatsoever from the Presidents of the BE7 Catholic universities, who are remaining tight-lipped about everything much as you would expect from a President of a BE7 Catholic university.
Uh, did you just totally miss the conference call from the president of St Johns? He specifically stated it will be 10 or 12 teams, with no mention of all Catholic schools. AD's from a number of schools have specifically stated there is no specific effort to make it all Catholic schools.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:48 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Everybody is anxiously awaiting the puff of smoke.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:52 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
It's not about religion or money, although both will be taken into due consideration.

It's about politics and philosophy.

Four of the seven Presidents of the BE7 universities are Catholic Priests who report to Catholic Bishops (as well as their university's Boards of Governors or equivalent). These Catholic Bishops all know each other, meet with each other regularly, and quite likely have been giving 'advice' to the Catholic Priest Presidents who will be casting the votes concerning expansion.
OK.. I can't believe I'm actually going to pose a semi-rational question to you. Do you think Butler gets into the new conference? If so, then it is ALL about money. Of course, most of us already know this.

The Presidents are going to sit down and say, who creates the strongest BE7+ profile? They will be looking at BB-only schools that will generate TV and NCAA money, and bring along a market worth having. They will look at the bottom line, and don't give a damn about philosophy, which you conveniently subsituted for "religion".

Look, if it goes to 12 teams I think Dayon is in, but not because 7 Catholics sat in a board room and like the Flyer philosophy. It's because they know UD has the money, the fan base, and a market that benefits BE7+. They're going to vote with their wallets. They don't answer to bishops, they answer to the Board of Trustees, and they seek counsel from their A.D.s. End of story.

Edit to add: I hope Dayton gets in for your sake, because if they don't we'll need an APB suicide watch out for you.
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Last edited by BrownIndians85; 12-19-2012 at 07:54 AM. Reason: to add
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:53 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Honestly, it would probably be better for Butler in the long run if Dayton was also invited simply for logistical reasons for all the periphery sports. But, I'm beginning to think Muddy's reaction to everyone else's reality trumps those considerations.

Regardless if the 10th is St Louis, Dayton, or Creighton, I hope this is over soon. Its getting tiresome
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:57 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Try and follow this now:
1 - Presidents have not issued any statements of intent (although they have)
2 - Since presidents haven't, all the AD/coaches comments are not to be given any weight...well, because they are not presidents. (I'm thinking here that Bobinski and Graham may talk occassionaly and probably have a good working relationship, and probably what Mike says could be given some weight...but that's just me)
3 - So faced with #1 and #2...the only credible source for any information is obviously

Lenn Robbins of the New York Post!

Why? Because he quoted an unnamed source who said "This split is not about finances. Its philosophical."

Makes perfect sense when you think about it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:13 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
Uh, did you just totally miss the conference call from the president of St Johns? He specifically stated it will be 10 or 12 teams, with no mention of all Catholic schools. AD's from a number of schools have specifically stated there is no specific effort to make it all Catholic schools.
To our Butler friends around here, allow me to suggest that it may be highly likely that Muddled is going to turn his repetitive 2-watt nightlight heat lamp onto Butler, once he learns that the BE7 aren't holding to an all-Catholic format. His hopes will be dashed when he finds out that the BE7 snapped up Xavier and Butler as their first expansion move. The affront this will create to the University of Dayton, in his mind's cataract-laced eye, will be beyond comprehension, as all life forms in this galaxy will drop their jaws in abject disbelief over Dayton not being obvious to the BE7 leadership group.

Butler will be made to pay with post after post after linked post after color-coded linked post..........
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:50 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash View Post
To our Butler friends around here, allow me to suggest that it may be highly likely that Muddled is going to turn his repetitive 2-watt nightlight heat lamp onto Butler, once he learns that the BE7 aren't holding to an all-Catholic format. His hopes will be dashed when he finds out that the BE7 snapped up Xavier and Butler as their first expansion move. The affront this will create to the University of Dayton, in his mind's cataract-laced eye, will be beyond comprehension, as all life forms in this galaxy will drop their jaws in abject disbelief over Dayton not being obvious to the BE7 leadership group.

Butler will be made to pay with post after post after linked post after color-coded linked post..........
Im not sure which im more excited to see if SLU gets in over Dayton: the fact that SLU is in this great conference or Muddy's reaction to SLU getting invited ahead of Dayton...
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:07 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash View Post
To our Butler friends around here, allow me to suggest that it may be highly likely that Muddled is going to turn his repetitive 2-watt nightlight heat lamp onto Butler, once he learns that the BE7 aren't holding to an all-Catholic format. His hopes will be dashed when he finds out that the BE7 snapped up Xavier and Butler as their first expansion move. The affront this will create to the University of Dayton, in his mind's cataract-laced eye, will be beyond comprehension, as all life forms in this galaxy will drop their jaws in abject disbelief over Dayton not being obvious to the BE7 leadership group.
I figured this is why he was ramping up his hatred of Bonas. On the off chance Dayton gets left out, he's going to need a new scapegoat for the Flyers' failings.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:17 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Re: CONTEST: Predict the New 'BE12' Conference Teams

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Im not sure which im more excited to see if SLU gets in over Dayton: the fact that SLU is in this great conference or Muddy's reaction to SLU getting invited ahead of Dayton...
May I suggest you'll be more excited about the former and take great pleasure over the latter.
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