X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 - Page 7 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

res · 12-18-2012, 06:02 AM

Hey, what do you know. Steve was right, as least with respect to Bona and X. Muddy's excellent table clearly shows that Bona is trending up, raising it's RPI every year since '04-'05. And X has been trending down consistently since '07-'08. Way to go, Steve!

Muddy Waters · 12-18-2012, 06:13 AM

Res - please do not give me credit for 434's excellent table:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 434 on December 18, 2012

Final RPI Rankings: 2002-03 through 2011-12

Code:

Team	  02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12  Avg RPI

Marquette     7    67    94    40    26    20    27    56    49     9     39.5
Villanova    83    53    14     2    19    42     8    15    45   121     40.2
Georgetown   74   138    77    26     6     8    66    16    15    14     44.0
Seton Hall   45    21   133    62   156   113   101    70   103    69     87.3
Providence   56    23    93   105    78   109    77   147   158	  156    100.2
St Johns     52   166   167   135   131   156   140    78    25   153    120.3
DePaul       81    30    63    90    56   157   205   217   233   194    132.6

Xavier       23    20   130    72    27     9    15    17    26    37     37.6
Butler	    21   152   239    80    22    16    22     7    19   105     68.3
Dayton       17    37   117   184    76    28    26    37    80    91     69.3
Saint Louis  77    58   184   102    74   135   130    80   183    28    105.1

VCU  	   135    45    91    74    44    60    51    46    31    34     61.1
St Joes	    29     2    47    53    97    50   105   184   163    75     80.5
Richmond    106    39   146   205   272   129   124    24    33   131    120.9
URI	    92    69   301   152   108    74    61    36   103   262    125.8
GW	   163    65    61    31    70   185   203   148   150   189    126.5
LaSalle	   189   170   215   103   268   163   110   178   172    96    166.4
Duquesne    252   162   258   308   219   130    76   112   100   110    172.7

St Bona     139   210   312   289   278   265   199   156   128    78    205.4
Fordham     282   212   189   138   112   172   292   304   255   242    220.2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on December 18, 2012

Code:

Team	  02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12  Avg RPI

Xavier       23    20   130    72    27     9    15    17    26    37     37.6
Marquette     7    67    94    40    26    20    27    56    49     9     39.5
Villanova    83    53    14     2    19    42     8    15    45   121     40.2
Georgetown   74   138    77    26     6     8    66    16    15    14     44.0
Butler	    21   152   239    80    22    16    22     7    19   105     68.3
Dayton       17    37   117   184    76    28    26    37    80    91     69.3
Seton Hall   45    21   133    62   156   113   101    70   103    69     87.3
Providence   56    23    93   105    78   109    77   147   158	  156    100.2
Saint Louis  77    58   184   102    74   135   130    80   183    28    105.1
St Johns     52   166   167   135   131   156   140    78    25   153    120.3
DePaul       81    30    63    90    56   157   205   217   233   194    132.6

paulxu · 12-18-2012, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bona Wolf for Pope

You can't make up an argument and then take the con.

Sure you can. I see it here all the time.

But that chart does have a couple of interesting statistics.
Of all the teams listed, in the last 10 years, Xavier has:

The most RPI seasons under 40. 8 of 10 seasons.

That's a credit to the school, the teams and the coaches.

Not sure how this fits into jp's RPI theory, as the BE schools follow his model of crappy OOC schedules, and X takes a more aggressive approach.

**xu95** · 12-18-2012, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters

Great post 434. I tweaked the format of your excellent Table:

Code:

Team	  02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12  Avg RPI

Marquette     7    67    94    40    26    20    27    56    49     9     39.5
Villanova    83    53    14     2    19    42     8    15    45   121     40.2
Georgetown   74   138    77    26     6     8    66    16    15    14     44.0
Seton Hall   45    21   133    62   156   113   101    70   103    69     87.3
Providence   56    23    93   105    78   109    77   147   158	  156    100.2
St Johns     52   166   167   135   131   156   140    78    25   153    120.3
DePaul       81    30    63    90    56   157   205   217   233   194    132.6

Xavier       23    20   130    72    27     9    15    17    26    37     37.6
Butler	    21   152   239    80    22    16    22     7    19   105     68.3
Dayton       17    37   117   184    76    28    26    37    80    91     69.3
Saint Louis  77    58   184   102    74   135   130    80   183    28    105.1

VCU  	   135    45    91    74    44    60    51    46    31    34     61.1
St Joes	    29     2    47    53    97    50   105   184   163    75     80.5
Richmond    106    39   146   205   272   129   124    24    33   131    120.9
URI	    92    69   301   152   108    74    61    36   103   262    125.8
GW	   163    65    61    31    70   185   203   148   150   189    126.5
LaSalle	   189   170   215   103   268   163   110   178   172    96    166.4
Duquesne    252   162   258   308   219   130    76   112   100   110    172.7

St Bona     139   210   312   289   278   265   199   156   128    78    205.4
Fordham     282   212   189   138   112   172   292   304   255   242    220.2

No one is worried about St. Bonaventure.

So what I can take away from Muddy's post is that Xavier would be the best team in the new Big East. I am proud of him for coming to such a conclusion.

434 · 12-18-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpschmack

Not to poop in your cornflakes, but since RPI comes from the games you play, and conference affiliation determine over 60% of the games you you play, taking the average RPI doesn't really work for those purposes.

I agree, the RPI isn't the greatest tool out there. However, it can show some trends. One of which is most A-10 teams are very inconsistent. So when someone makes an argument School A should be kicked out to make league stronger, you could look at this and say School B has had equally bad years. BTW, someone posted somewhere (I can't remember if on this board or elsewhere) the OOC winning percentage of the schools over the past 5 years. The rankings of the schools based on OOC win % is very similar to how these RPI rankings.

Quote:

It's "easy" to fake your way into the tournament thru RPI games and improve your recruiting by being on the bracket than to try and play your way in through tough games and lose until you can get better recruits.

I agree with this as well. The BE has played this game well. However, I think if your RPI is consistently in the Top 50, the likelihood is you are a Top 50 program. So the new conference would have more Top 50 programs than the current A-10.

For teams in the 75-150 range, playing the RPI game probably inflates your rankings. So SH, Providence, St Johns, and DePaul's ave RPI is likely inflated over the A-10 schools. I concede that point. However, you can see that the A-10 consistently has a number of schools year in and year out, worse than those 4. The RPI game does not make a 70 place difference. This is the problem with the A-10 vs a new conference. The inconsistency of the league, and the fact when A-10 schools hit down cycles, they are really deep down cycles.

By the way XU95, Muddy made no comment saying X would be the best team in the new BE. I am the one "suggesting" it. With the issues the RPI does have, making the case that X is the best in the new league can't be done with the numbers being so close. I will say, obviously, X can compete regularly with those schools.

Muddy Waters · 12-18-2012, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownIndians85

X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 - Post # 1

I'm predominantly asking Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, and Butler, but invite fans of every A-10 school to tell me why BE7+ is the promised land.

I'll start by saying I don't think it is.

I think BE7 contains 2 or 3 good programs, and 4 that are past their prime.

When certain fan bases sit and criticize Fordham, Bona, LaSalle, Rhody for pulling down this conference, I question how long until those same fan bases are no longer enamored with Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, and St. John's in BE7+?.

There have been a number of excellent answers on this thread.

Is it all coming together for you now, BrownIndians85 ?

**xu95** · 12-18-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 434

By the way XU95, Muddy made no comment saying X would be the best team in the new BE. I am the one "suggesting" it. With the issues the RPI does have, making the case that X is the best in the new league can't be done with the numbers being so close. I will say, obviously, X can compete regularly with those schools.

I know that. It was totally a joke. Sometimes you just have to have a little fun.

DukesDan · 12-18-2012, 09:13 AM

The BE7 aint got nothin on the A10

http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/big...-league-945432

A10fan2 · 12-18-2012, 10:18 AM

Ain't got nothing until they add Xavier Butler and Saint Louis. then adding an ESPN TV contract and you have quite a league with no dregs.

Boozehound · 12-18-2012, 10:20 AM

Here is the allure of the BE7 from my perspective:

No Fordham
No LaSalle
Georgetown
Marquette
Villanova
No Duquesne
No St. Bonaventure

Hopefully Butler and VCU both make it into the new league. A league with a core of Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Villanova, would be solid. That's 6 teams that make the NCAA's pretty much every year (recently). The bottom is much better as well. All teams in the league have a commitment to basketball, which can't be said for the A10 bottom feeders.

xu1990 · 12-18-2012, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownIndians85

Umm.. if you're going to point out someone else's flaws it's best to make sure all your ducks are in a row as well. Not that it's a great accomplishment, but SBU has TWO NCAA appearances in the last 34 years.

I am sure I could look this up and find easily but I am lazy...wasn't last game before last year an OT game with Kentucky about 10 years ago? I really should remember this but didn't Bonnies have great PG? Wynn?

xu1990 · 12-18-2012, 11:23 AM

Whoops should have read the rest of thread first....I wasn't only one who remembered game

WH · 12-18-2012, 11:31 AM

Imagine if Georgetown had never brought back a Thompson to coach after the Craig Esherick era!

That one hiring decision may turn out to be the salvation of the Catholic 7. How ironic.

I can easily see the attraction of the new conference for Xavier and Co. Fans of those schools have been talking about a Catholic league for years. More money, more exposure, association with nationally known programs.

Yes, the new league would be better than the current A-10, but in no small part because it would be taking our top programs away. The A-10 clearly would get weaker as a result.

If the Catholic 7 keep the Big East brand, all the better.

In the back of my mind, though, I don’t think the conference will turn out to be all that its aspirants hope. Shorn of the football money and BCS association, the Catholic 7 are unlikely to be able to support hoops quite as much as they have. And some of these schools are one bad hire away from near oblivion – as Esherick showed.

The new league will also feel the effects of what the A-10 has been dealing with for years – the power of football and TV money that benefit the BCS leagues.

Make no mistake. The Catholic 7 will not recruit nearly as well and a gap will open up with their brethren still in BCS leagues, nearly all of whom have superior facilities. And if attendance falters a bit because there’s no more Cuse or Louisville or Pitt, that will put even more stress on their budgets in the era of Title 9.

What I could easily see happening is an Xavier or Butler coming to be the league’s new dominant programs, supplanting Gtown or Marquette. X and Butler have better facilities and, at least in X’s case, a better core fanbase.

I am sure that would cause some consternation among the lesser Catholic 7 schools!

Even though I am a longtime A-10 fan, I honestly don’t have strong feelings about what’s going on. I would not wish good things for the schools that leave, but I would not wish them ill either.

All the conference shifting over the past few years has sharply degraded my interest in college sports, even college basketball and the A-10. I don’t even follow UMass as avidly as I did just a few years ago.

Perhaps I would feel better if I thought the future of UMass was secure, but I am put off by all the conference moving. The pros at least offer stability, a critical ingredient of success that college athletics has tossed overboard. I don't know who's in what conference anymore!

MudFlap · 12-18-2012, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xu95

So what I can take away from Muddy's post is that Xavier would be the best team in the new Big East. I am proud of him for coming to such a conclusion.

What happened to the "downturn", already.

AdamtheFlyer · 12-18-2012, 12:29 PM

Getting lost in most of this talk is the fact that 10 is an awful number for a conference. Generally speaking, no conference will get more than half of its teams in the tourney, and that's only when its at a maximum performance level. That limits you to a realistic max of 5 bids, and an expected range of 3-4. When a league is at its strongest, one-third will still have no chance at a bid, one-third will be safely in, and one-third will be on or near the bubble.

Going to 12 teams increases the realistic max to 6 bids, and the expected range to 4-5. This also greatly increases the odds that you get multiple teams to the second weekend, and at least one into the Final Four. Over time, that's a lot more money.

If this league starts at 10, I don't think it will stay there for long. If it takes 2-3 years for this league to get started, I doubt it even starts at 10. It's just not a good number. I really can't blame the C7 for feeling this way, but starting at 10 just seems like a reactionary, feelings driven move. That's not good business.

Along the same lines, when teams do leave, the A10 will have to respond and add teams right away. I think it will. If three leave, they probably add George Mason on the spot and have 12.

12-18-2012, 06:02 AM	#91 (permalink)
res Veteran Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,240 Rep Power: 236981	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 Hey, what do you know. Steve was right, as least with respect to Bona and X. Muddy's excellent table clearly shows that Bona is trending up, raising it's RPI every year since '04-'05. And X has been trending down consistently since '07-'08. Way to go, Steve!

12-18-2012, 09:13 AM	#98 (permalink)
DukesDan Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,135 Rep Power: 15970	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 The BE7 aint got nothin on the A10 http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/big...-league-945432 __________________ Duquesne Dukes: 2012 A10 tournament qualifier!! 2012-2013 Locks of the Day TBA 2011-2012 Locks of the Day NIT participant 29-26-0...... .527 2010-2011 Locks of the Day Regular Season Champion 31-20-4 ..... .600 #15 Cooper #11 Green #10 Nixon #12 Ricketts #24 Somerset

12-18-2012, 10:20 AM	#100 (permalink)
Boozehound Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 828 Rep Power: 1822	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 Here is the allure of the BE7 from my perspective: No Fordham No LaSalle Georgetown Marquette Villanova No Duquesne No St. Bonaventure Hopefully Butler and VCU both make it into the new league. A league with a core of Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Villanova, would be solid. That's 6 teams that make the NCAA's pretty much every year (recently). The bottom is much better as well. All teams in the league have a commitment to basketball, which can't be said for the A10 bottom feeders.

12-18-2012, 11:23 AM	#102 (permalink)
xu1990 6th Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 483 Rep Power: 142932	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 Whoops should have read the rest of thread first....I wasn't only one who remembered game __________________ 4 out of 5 sweet sixteen's : Kansas, Michigan State, North Carolina and Xavier. 8 schools have made last 7 NCAAs: Duke, Gonzaga, Kansas, Marquette, Michigan State, Texas, Wisconsin and Xavier.

12-18-2012, 11:31 AM	#103 (permalink)
WH Star Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,496 Rep Power: 319215	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 Imagine if Georgetown had never brought back a Thompson to coach after the Craig Esherick era! That one hiring decision may turn out to be the salvation of the Catholic 7. How ironic. I can easily see the attraction of the new conference for Xavier and Co. Fans of those schools have been talking about a Catholic league for years. More money, more exposure, association with nationally known programs. Yes, the new league would be better than the current A-10, but in no small part because it would be taking our top programs away. The A-10 clearly would get weaker as a result. If the Catholic 7 keep the Big East brand, all the better. In the back of my mind, though, I don’t think the conference will turn out to be all that its aspirants hope. Shorn of the football money and BCS association, the Catholic 7 are unlikely to be able to support hoops quite as much as they have. And some of these schools are one bad hire away from near oblivion – as Esherick showed. The new league will also feel the effects of what the A-10 has been dealing with for years – the power of football and TV money that benefit the BCS leagues. Make no mistake. The Catholic 7 will not recruit nearly as well and a gap will open up with their brethren still in BCS leagues, nearly all of whom have superior facilities. And if attendance falters a bit because there’s no more Cuse or Louisville or Pitt, that will put even more stress on their budgets in the era of Title 9. What I could easily see happening is an Xavier or Butler coming to be the league’s new dominant programs, supplanting Gtown or Marquette. X and Butler have better facilities and, at least in X’s case, a better core fanbase. I am sure that would cause some consternation among the lesser Catholic 7 schools! Even though I am a longtime A-10 fan, I honestly don’t have strong feelings about what’s going on. I would not wish good things for the schools that leave, but I would not wish them ill either. All the conference shifting over the past few years has sharply degraded my interest in college sports, even college basketball and the A-10. I don’t even follow UMass as avidly as I did just a few years ago. Perhaps I would feel better if I thought the future of UMass was secure, but I am put off by all the conference moving. The pros at least offer stability, a critical ingredient of success that college athletics has tossed overboard. I don't know who's in what conference anymore!

12-18-2012, 12:29 PM	#105 (permalink)
AdamtheFlyer Star Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,819 Rep Power: 157851	Re: X, UD, StL, Butler - Explain the "allure" of the BE7 Getting lost in most of this talk is the fact that 10 is an awful number for a conference. Generally speaking, no conference will get more than half of its teams in the tourney, and that's only when its at a maximum performance level. That limits you to a realistic max of 5 bids, and an expected range of 3-4. When a league is at its strongest, one-third will still have no chance at a bid, one-third will be safely in, and one-third will be on or near the bubble. Going to 12 teams increases the realistic max to 6 bids, and the expected range to 4-5. This also greatly increases the odds that you get multiple teams to the second weekend, and at least one into the Final Four. Over time, that's a lot more money. If this league starts at 10, I don't think it will stay there for long. If it takes 2-3 years for this league to get started, I doubt it even starts at 10. It's just not a good number. I really can't blame the C7 for feeling this way, but starting at 10 just seems like a reactionary, feelings driven move. That's not good business. Along the same lines, when teams do leave, the A10 will have to respond and add teams right away. I think it will. If three leave, they probably add George Mason on the spot and have 12. __________________ Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism. Last edited by AdamtheFlyer; 12-18-2012 at 12:41 PM.

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