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Old 12-22-2012, 10:45 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by LastMinuteman View Post
What are some examples of athletic programs that had more success and generated more fan interest after downgrading?
I can't think of one. I also don't think that either will necessarily happen with Fordham. Almost definitely not the fan interest. I was in college for our first three years in the PL and our attendance got worse each season.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Moving to a league with better rivals and a better chance at success is "downgrading"??? We're too obsessed with "bigger is better" in this country. Common sense goes out the window with that line of thought. College athletics has lost sight of one of the most important aspect of collegiate athletics.........RIVALRIES. I truly believe that is one of the reasons why collegiate athletics sucks so much in the Northeast. Name another area of the country where next to none of the biggest schools and best athletic programs hardly play each other in football and hoops, never mind belong to the same conference.
Excellent response.

I understand the point of the question and why the question was posed. Yet, in Fordham's specific case, this has to be about getting to a situation where they can be competitive. They need to move down in conference so that their program as a chance of competing.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:56 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by xudash View Post
Excellent response.

I understand the point of the question and why the question was posed. Yet, in Fordham's specific case, this has to be about getting to a situation where they can be competitive. They need to move down in conference so that their program as a chance of competing.
Exactly. Fordham basketball has never been a consistently good program. They have 4, YES FOUR, tournament appearances in the schools history. The last one being, ironically enough, in 1992 when they were in the PL.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:10 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by xudash View Post
Excellent response.

I understand the point of the question and why the question was posed. Yet, in Fordham's specific case, this has to be about getting to a situation where they can be competitive. They need to move down in conference so that their program as a chance of competing.
Amen!

Another good example of this........when Delaware and Hofstra were DOMINATING America East and making the NCAA tournament in the mid/late-90s..........they were selling out 5K+. Since moving to the CAA over a decade ago.........neither has sniffed the NCAAs and most of the time have had losing seasons. I went to the Delaware website and looked at attendance.........last season they drew 2K and 3.5 K for George Mason and VCU respectively. I used those 2 because those are the biggest names/games for them. Back in 98-99.......they sold out games vs. Maine and UNH (2 horrid programs). How has that "upgrade" worked out for them?
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

Mike Brey and Jay Wright were the reasons Delaware and Hofstra were good back then; I think they could have been just as successful in the CAA.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:17 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by mainejeff View Post
Moving to a league with better rivals and a better chance at success is "downgrading"??? We're too obsessed with "bigger is better" in this country. Common sense goes out the window with that line of thought.
But isn't growth the point of the entire collegiate enterprise? We go to college to improve ourselves and test our limits, not to permanently pigeonhole ourselves. If the University of Maine doesn't offer as good a program in Biomedical Engineering as Harvard, that doesn't mean they should scrap the department and offer degrees in Air Conditioner Maintenance instead. The world needs air conditioner repairmen, but that isn't the goal or purpose of a state flagship university nor a university of significance like Fordham.

I think college athletics should follow the same principle. We seek to better ourselves through competition. When we fail, we analyze why we failed, reconsider our tactics, train harder, and try again. The same approach applies to everything else in life.

Fordham has inherent advantages that most universities would kill to have. They are not incapable of doing this. They are incapable of doing it the way they've been doing it. They have completed the part of the course that involves failing and figuring out why they failed, but have skipped out on the classes that cover learning from your mistakes and improving. And so they get a F in the A10. Transferring somewhere else might get them a C or even a B, but only because they'll no longer be graded on the improvement portion. And if they were actually successful enough to get an A, they'd wish they were back in the A10. A move only makes sense if they don't intend to be especially successful. Which is fine. The world needs ditch-diggers.

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College athletics has lost sight of one of the most important aspect of collegiate athletics.........RIVALRIES. I truly believe that is one of the reasons why collegiate athletics sucks so much in the Northeast. Name another area of the country where next to none of the biggest schools and best athletic programs hardly play each other in football and hoops, never mind belong to the same conference.
I agree with you on this point, but for a completely different reason. I think that fear of failure and competition has more to do with the decline of college sports in the northeast than aiming too high. Show me another region of the country where fans on the message boards invest so much time discussing ways they can take themselves out of the competition (such as by downgrading conferences or dropping sports) before they have a chance to lose. Remember the cries of "you didn't beat me, I wasn't really trying" at schoolyard recess? That's northeast college sports in a nutshell, as evidenced by the voluntary withdrawals of the Ivy League, then Holy Cross, and now apparently Boston College from national sports relevance. We avoid losing to other Northeast universities by refusing to play them, and we avoid losing to the South and West by pretending we have too much integrity to commit so many resources to something wasteful like sports. Seems like competition was fine back when the Ivies were the ones with the overwhelming advantage in resources.

Regardless, Fordham is already in a conference with similar institutions: Mostly small, mostly private, mostly Catholic, mostly urban, mostly northeast universities, a few of which have facilities problems like them. And they're still in a class by themselves in poor performance. A rivalry requires two sides trying to compete, not just one.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

Again, as an active Fordham Alum, and it is something that I wish wasn't true; given our level of support (most notably an on campus facility) it is hard to see how we can compete at the higher levels of D1 basketball.

This is a position that generates a state of denial from fans of the the program. We know objectively, that the University has tried. We have hired expensive coaches (including one big name former NBA coach), upgraded to the A-10 (a multiple bid conference for all of our participation), put our games on TV, radio spots featuring the Knicks TV play by play man - also an alum), along with what you expect - glitzy tip off dinners in NYC, etc.

Unfortunately, the University has other capital programs that place a new basketball arena beyond the immediate future. Although I understand our fans disappointment in the aforementioned it is a matter of priorities.

Our basketball fans are passionate, but very unrealistic in their understanding of the place the program has in our athletic history. We make the NCAA tournament on average every 25 years. Far from being perceived as a team that can compete on a national level, for the overwhelming majority of our history we struggled to be the best team in NYC and the metro area.

All this may seem negative, and certainly doesn't speak to the hopes of Fordham basketball fans, but it is important in framing a realistic place for our team to compete in. Given our history, present and prospects for the future; the patriot League makes the most sense - best chance of winning, and to paraphrase a famous alum of ours - it is the only thing that matters.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Mike Brey and Jay Wright were the reasons Delaware and Hofstra were good back then; I think they could have been just as successful in the CAA.
Whatever the reasons..........both programs tanked after they entered the CAA. And my main point is that sellout crowds were showing up to see them play putrid programs Maine and UNH and not showing up to see them play terrific programs like VCU and GMU.........what I take from this is..........winning is more important than who you are playing when it comes to drawing consistently large crowds.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:08 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by ram ram View Post
Again, as an active Fordham Alum, and it is something that I wish wasn't true; given our level of support (most notably an on campus facility) it is hard to see how we can compete at the higher levels of D1 basketball.

This is a position that generates a state of denial from fans of the the program. We know objectively, that the University has tried. We have hired expensive coaches (including one big name former NBA coach), upgraded to the A-10 (a multiple bid conference for all of our participation), put our games on TV, radio spots featuring the Knicks TV play by play man - also an alum), along with what you expect - glitzy tip off dinners in NYC, etc.

Unfortunately, the University has other capital programs that place a new basketball arena beyond the immediate future. Although I understand our fans disappointment in the aforementioned it is a matter of priorities.

Our basketball fans are passionate, but very unrealistic in their understanding of the place the program has in our athletic history. We make the NCAA tournament on average every 25 years. Far from being perceived as a team that can compete on a national level, for the overwhelming majority of our history we struggled to be the best team in NYC and the metro area.

All this may seem negative, and certainly doesn't speak to the hopes of Fordham basketball fans, but it is important in framing a realistic place for our team to compete in. Given our history, present and prospects for the future; the patriot League makes the most sense - best chance of winning, and to paraphrase a famous alum of ours - it is the only thing that matters.
Amen.

Too many schools have had big dreams.........only to see them crushed when they step up in competition and can't or won't give the needed institutional support ($$$$) to give them a fair (but not guaranteed!) shot at competing. Then it becomes a vicious cycle of losing.......which in turn makes it harder to recruit better players and draw paying fans to see them play.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:23 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by ram ram View Post
Again, as an active Fordham Alum, and it is something that I wish wasn't true; given our level of support (most notably an on campus facility) it is hard to see how we can compete at the higher levels of D1 basketball.

This is a position that generates a state of denial from fans of the the program. We know objectively, that the University has tried. We have hired expensive coaches (including one big name former NBA coach), upgraded to the A-10 (a multiple bid conference for all of our participation), put our games on TV, radio spots featuring the Knicks TV play by play man - also an alum), along with what you expect - glitzy tip off dinners in NYC, etc.

Unfortunately, the University has other capital programs that place a new basketball arena beyond the immediate future. Although I understand our fans disappointment in the aforementioned it is a matter of priorities.

Our basketball fans are passionate, but very unrealistic in their understanding of the place the program has in our athletic history. We make the NCAA tournament on average every 25 years. Far from being perceived as a team that can compete on a national level, for the overwhelming majority of our history we struggled to be the best team in NYC and the metro area.

All this may seem negative, and certainly doesn't speak to the hopes of Fordham basketball fans, but it is important in framing a realistic place for our team to compete in. Given our history, present and prospects for the future; the patriot League makes the most sense - best chance of winning, and to paraphrase a famous alum of ours - it is the only thing that matters.
Word to the posters on this board, use the ignore feature for this poster.IMO a troll who repeats the same thing over & over. The only talk as to the move is from Ram Ram.

That said, something needs to be done. Fr. McShane does not care a fig about sports. His predecessor, Fr. O'Hare did care and we still did not get a new arena. Rather than the PL, I would prefer the MAAC if the A 10 tosses us.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:52 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Word to the posters on this board, use the ignore feature for this poster.IMO a troll who repeats the same thing over & over. The only talk as to the move is from Ram Ram.

That said, something needs to be done. Fr. McShane does not care a fig about sports. His predecessor, Fr. O'Hare did care and we still did not get a new arena. Rather than the PL, I would prefer the MAAC if the A 10 tosses us.
If Fordham would consider the MAAC over the PL than the PL needs to tell FU football to take a hike.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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If Fordham would consider the MAAC over the PL than the PL needs to tell FU football to take a hike.
I think they need Fordham as bad as Fordham needs them, but I hear what you are saying. It is a moot point though b/c Fordham would not go to the MAAC instead of the PL.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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We make the NCAA tournament on average every 25 years.
By my watch, this is good news. Watch out for us in 2017! You all have been warned.
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:28 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Originally Posted by jimbo65 View Post
Word to the posters on this board, use the ignore feature for this poster.IMO a troll who repeats the same thing over & over. The only talk as to the move is from Ram Ram.

That said, something needs to be done. Fr. McShane does not care a fig about sports. His predecessor, Fr. O'Hare did care and we still did not get a new arena. Rather than the PL, I would prefer the MAAC if the A 10 tosses us.
Seems like Fordham is not a place where ideas are discussed - as our commercial states. Too my fellow alums, I have not intention of rejoining your board where the Fordham drag exists, where a differing opinion meets a "barrage" of personal attacks and negativity. I will leave you to attack each other - which is the norm.

You can all live in your world of make believe, no one cares about Fordham Basketball, and our athletics overall. All the others see is our programs having a .200 winning percentage, for all sports in the last 25 years. Football being the only bright spot.

At the President's Club Christmas Party, on Dec 3rd at the Koch Theater, many are already making there voice heard. They are tired of the losing, and many (not all) believe the PL is the place we ought to be - after all these are successful people, they don't mind me associated with other smart people.
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:49 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

First off, my apologies to this forum for a Fordham sports debate. This is like listening to two midgets fight over who is taller.

ram ram.. You can debate all you like on the Fordham forum. Just bring facts and valuable insights to the table. This .200 winning percentage for all sports is bunk. "Football being the only bright spot" is total crap. If you follow athletics even a little, then you'd know we have had a dominant softball team for years. A very competitive soccer, women's crew, and baseball program as well. Our football team - yes two Patriot League championships - has struggled mightily over the last two decades. I'm happy they seem to be turning it around again, but they are far from a bright spot.

Lastly, your pretentious line about "successful people" is a bit over the top and really makes you come off as an arse. Maybe this why you've been met with so much vitriol on the boards. I also like how you assume that Fordham would be successful in the Patriot League. A smart person would know, that without the proper facilities and administrative support, you'll struggle to be successful anywhere. But what do I know.. I is a stoopid person and wasn't at the President's Club Dinner with Biff and Muffy talking athletics.
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