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Old 12-24-2012, 07:04 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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First off, my apologies to this forum for a Fordham sports debate. This is like listening to two midgets fight over who is taller.

ram ram.. You can debate all you like on the Fordham forum. Just bring facts and valuable insights to the table. This .200 winning percentage for all sports is bunk. "Football being the only bright spot" is total crap. If you follow athletics even a little, then you'd know we have had a dominant softball team for years. A very competitive soccer, women's crew, and baseball program as well. Our football team - yes two Patriot League championships - has struggled mightily over the last two decades. I'm happy they seem to be turning it around again, but they are far from a bright spot.

Lastly, your pretentious line about "successful people" is a bit over the top and really makes you come off as an arse. Maybe this why you've been met with so much vitriol on the boards. I also like how you assume that Fordham would be successful in the Patriot League. A smart person would know, that without the proper facilities and administrative support, you'll struggle to be successful anywhere. But what do I know.. I is a stoopid person and wasn't at the President's Club Dinner with Biff and Muffy talking athletics.
First, your are incorrect about the winning percentage, over the last 25 years (or should I say since 1984) the athletic department HAS had (check the numbers) a winning percentage of .200. That doesn't mean some minor sports have done better than the average. All this easily checked, if you didn't go on your little missy fit, and resorting to personal attacks which have become the hallmark of any opposing opinions on our board.

I have forgotten more Fordham History than most of you have ever learned, so please limit your mean spirited lectures, to where they are enjoyed the most.

My apologies first and foremost to Ace, who is civil and fair, and recognized early on that I was not being treated fairly, remember the "plant" accusations. Enough of the inside baseball. The fact is that the Patriot League is the best fit for a program with a 1920s HS Gym and who makes the tournament every twenty or so years, I believe that number is CORRECT.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:23 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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First, your are incorrect about the winning percentage, over the last 25 years (or should I say since 1984) the athletic department HAS had (check the numbers) a winning percentage of .200. That doesn't mean some minor sports have done better than the average. All this easily checked, if you didn't go on your little missy fit, and resorting to personal attacks which have become the hallmark of any opposing opinions on our board.
Please provide the stats if they are so easy to check. I'll gladly tip my hat to you and say I am wrong. I am by no means coming to the defense of our athletic department, but I think you are a bit over the top here.

This is the first time I have ever responded to you and I didn't follow what you wrote on the FU board.

Lastly, personal attack?? I said what you wrote sounded pretentious. That's not a PERSONAL attack. I mocked the Dinner you went to. I didn't call you any names or go on a "hissy" fit as you said. Provide facts to back up your statements. It's pretty simple. Hearsay and conversation at an alumni event does not equal facts in my opinion.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:09 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Please provide the stats if they are so easy to check. I'll gladly tip my hat to you and say I am wrong. I am by no means coming to the defense of our athletic department, but I think you are a bit over the top here.

This is the first time I have ever responded to you and I didn't follow what you wrote on the FU board.

Lastly, personal attack?? I said what you wrote sounded pretentious. That's not a PERSONAL attack. I mocked the Dinner you went to. I didn't call you any names or go on a "hissy" fit as you said. Provide facts to back up your statements. It's pretty simple. Hearsay and conversation at an alumni event does not equal facts in my opinion.
I will be providing the link to the NCAA pdf that was the source of my winning percentage comment, still looking for it. My pretentious remarks, may have been arrogant in the view of some; but not directed to anyone specifically, as were the ones on our board to me - that makes it personal.

My comment was meant to illustrate that many - not all - of those who donate in significant amounts, have thought this through and don't understand why we wouldn't want to join the PL. Where we would (intuitively have a greater chance) to be more competitive. And yes, many including myself, would welcome the further association of these great academic institutions.

The basketball program over the last twenty years has been a disgrace, and with no sign of infra-structure improvements, or change in leadership attitudes - which every agrees is the case - a conference switch is only logical.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:21 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

Please......the Patriot League is no longer the dumping ground it once was. Last year, Lehigh beat Duke in the first round of the NCAA tournament and lost a close second round game to Xavier. Bucknell went to the NIT and beat Arizona. With the addition of Boston U (large,in-city,good academics,great facilities) and Loyola(MD)(winner of the MAAC last year), the conference is on the upswing. Of course it is not the A10, but it is not the dregs of the NCAA either.

With that said, everyone knows winning begets winning. Fordham would be more competitive in the PL which may mean better recruits that want to go to a winning school and hence more wins, etc, etc. With winning comes pressure to improve facilities.

I would welcome Fordham to the Patriot as the 11th member and then
begin the search for a 12th member - William & Mary, Hofstra, Drexel, Fairfield, LaSalle, St Joe's.............
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:01 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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I would welcome Fordham to the Patriot as the 11th member and then
begin the search for a 12th member - William & Mary, Hofstra, Drexel, Fairfield, LaSalle, St Joe's.............
Are you new to the PL? My assumption is that you are a Boston U. fan rather than a Bucknell fan b/c there is no way the PL would invite some of the schools you mention. The pretense among a large chunk of their alums is sometimes incomprehensible and several of those schools would simply not allow some of the schools you mention into the PL. Of those you mentioned, there might be 2 or 3 they would invite.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:47 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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With that said, everyone knows winning begets winning. Fordham would be more competitive in the PL which may mean better recruits that want to go to a winning school and hence more wins, etc, etc. With winning comes pressure to improve facilities.
Well said ... winning is what counts. If we winning year after year, saying no to a new facility would be harder. Besides, we are STILL seeing the benefits from a national presence of our football team (most active and generous athletic donors), and that was 70 years ago.

Unfortunately, our basketball program has no such history to fall back on, we need to get it done on the court. Being in the A10, even if it becomes the A-10 lite, may give us the illusion of a big time program, but it will not get us back to your original point. Gofd things happen when you win, and we need a conference that makes that more likely.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:13 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

ramram cannot stand the heat on the Fordham board on the issue of our going to the PL so he comes to the A-10 board looking for a friendlier audience. Others are still defending a potential move but ramram did not want a debate, he wanted to preach to a choir.

Understand this A-10 posters, ramram could not care less about Fordham basketball, he is one of the football fans who thinks if we move everything to the PL then the football budget will be increased. He talks about big donors being annoyed that we are losing in basketball because of our infrastructure but if that was the case wouldn't they offer to put up some money to improve the failities if they cared about basketball? These people are totally made up.

Ramram is stuck in the Lombardi era even though no one other than a few old Fordham alumni care that Lombardi was at Fordham. He will focus on Lombardi but not tell you that we have had only 5 winning football seasons since we joined the PL in football over 20 years ago. He will not tell you in 20 years the best we could do were 2 PL football championships, the PL is one of the worst conferences in FCS football. Yet he will continue to tell you how winning matters. There has always been a tension between basketball and football fans ever since we moved to the PL. We basketball fans hated the move and never want to go back, football fans loved it because it got us out of DIII. Ask Ramram how he would feel about going back to DIII for all sports, we would certainly win more football games there and according to him winning at whatever division you play in is what matters.

Sorry to spoil your little party here ramram, I hope this does not cause you to run off to the PL board, I definitely will not go there.

Last edited by Rich93; 12-27-2012 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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ramram cannot stand the heat on the Fordham board on the issue of our going to the PL so he comes to the A-10 board looking for a friendlier audience. Others are still defending a potential move but ramram did not want a debate, he wanted to preach to a choir.

Understand this A-10 posters, ramram could not care less about Fordham basketball, he is one of the football fans who thinks if we move everything to the PL then the football budget will be increased. As you can tell he is stuck in the Lombardi era and the idea that our football program has helped our national presence is ridiculous, most kids do not even know Lombardi had anything to do with Fordham. He will not tell you that have had only 5 winning football seasons since we joined the PL in football over the past 20 years. He will not tell you in 20 years the best we could do were 2 PL championships, the PL is one of the worst conferences in FCS football. Yet he will continue to tell you how winning matters.

Sorry to spoil your little party here ramram, I hope this does not cause you to run off to the PL board, I definitely will not go there.
Personal attacks by this poster is the norm for Fordham Basketball fans to have to explain the decades of dismal performance of the program by knocking our football team.

I feel a little sorry for them, for yes our national football glory days may be over ... but better to have had a glorious history, than to have never had one at all.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:30 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

Another favorite tact of ramram, you debate the issue and he calls it a personal attack. I did not call him any names. He does not want to debate the issue, he wants to stand on a soap box and preach to you all as you hopefully nod your head.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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I feel a little sorry for them, for yes our national football glory days may be over ... but better to have had a glorious history, than to have never had one at all.
Funny. If there is one thing most on this board think is meaningless it is past glory, especially when it is ancient. Chances of winning anyone over with ancient glory in a sport this board is not about, somewhere near zero.

Where you alive then? (honest question)
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

A10 posters, I am not here to knock our current program, I am just saddened that we have had only two NCAA appearances in the last 40 years. That despite spending money; on a big name former NBA coaches and a 3/4 million salary for our current coach, many TV games, expensive advertising and promotions, we are still losing, and losing bad.

The real debate, which some venues find it hard to hear, is that given our facilities and level of support by our fans and administration, a change in league/conference is logical.
I understand that hurts fans of the program .... but a losing program, that few carea bout, way from Fordham, can not be allowed to continua.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:46 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Funny. If there is one thing most on this board think is meaningless it is past glory, especially when it is ancient. Chances of winning anyone over with ancient glory in a sport this board is not about, somewhere near zero.

Where you alive then? (honest question)
Ace, sports is about tradition, it isn't about the present. If it was about the immediate, Yankee fans would be as disappointed as Fordham basketball fans during their lifetime.

The fact here is if the basketball program had even a semi-glorious past, we would not be were we are today. The past does count, that is why it has a direct correlation to a conference switch - not every team deserves (or should) play with the big boys.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:03 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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A10 posters, I am not here to knock our current program, I am just saddened that we have had only two NCAA appearances in the last 40 years. That despite spending money; on a big name former NBA coaches and a 3/4 million salary for our current coach, many TV games, expensive advertising and promotions, we are still losing, and losing bad.

The real debate, which some venues find it hard to hear, is that given our facilities and level of support by our fans and administration, a change in league/conference is logical.
I understand that hurts fans of the program .... but a losing program, that few carea bout, way from Fordham, can not be allowed to continua.
Our football facilites are pathetic even by PL standards. We spend 6 million a year on FCS football which no one outside of Fordham cares about even if we win and go to the FCS playoffs. Clawson struck lightening in a bottle won a PL title and left. Before that we were pathetic for 15 years, the laughing stock of the PL. Look at the records. Massella wins a title with Clawson's players and then he crashes and burns. We give out scholarships when the PL teams do not and still lose to them. Moorhead has a nice year last year but we did not beat one scholarship program.

Given our facilities and lack of support for football we should drop it and put our resources into basketball. The schools in this conference that have consistently had success in basketball on a national level have done so by focusing on basketball and cutting football.

That is a better answer then dropping basketball to the PL. Take the 6 million a year we spend on FCS football which has 0 national appeal and put it into an A-10 basketball program that if successful would bring national recognition for Fordham. If it is a choice between the 2 there is no comparison a successful A-10 basketball program will bring a lot more to Fordham than a successful FCS football program.

Last edited by Rich93; 12-27-2012 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:21 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Ace, sports is about tradition, it isn't about the present. If it was about the immediate, Yankee fans would be as disappointed as Fordham basketball fans during their lifetime.

The fact here is if the basketball program had even a semi-glorious past, we would not be were we are today. The past does count, that is why it has a direct correlation to a conference switch - not every team deserves (or should) play with the big boys.
I did not say it is only about the immediate, just that the ancient past does little now. You are talking 60 to 70 years ago.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:28 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Our football facilites are pathetic even by PL standards. We spend 6 million a year on FCS football which no one outside of Fordham cares about even if we win and go to the FCS playoffs. Clawson struck lightening in a bottle won a PL title and left. Before that we were pathetic for 15 years, the laughing stock of the PL. Look at the records. Massella wins a title with Clawson's players and then he crashes and burns. We give out scholarships when the PL teams do not and still lose to them. Moorhead has a nice year last year but we did not beat one scholarship program.

Given our facilities and lack of support for football we should drop it and put our resources into basketball. The schools in this conference that have consistently had success in basketball on a national level have done so by focusing on basketball and cutting football.

That is a better answer then dropping basketball to the PL. Take the 6 million a year we spend on FCS football which has 0 national appeal and put it into an A-10 basketball program that if successful would bring national recognition for Fordham. If it is a choice between the 2 there is no comparison a successful A-10 basketball program will bring a lot more to Fordham than a successful FCS football program.
Given the above logic basketball is the program to drop. 3 million dollars spent on a smaller student athlete and staff base makes it the most expensive losing program in Fordham Athletics, if not the country.

What this poster fails to realize is that football alums and supporters are the most important and active donor bases that Fordham has. Without football there would be zero interest in our athletics.

Fordham basketball fans, with mythical visions of dancing down the road to the final four have to understand it will never happen. Iona, Manhattan, Fairfield have all had more NCAA appearances (and even some victories) and it didn't move their national prominence one inch.

Lie to yourself, the board, and other Fordham fans, but if football was to go, it is far more likely that the money saved would go to our operating budget, not basketball. In fact it would be likely that D3 would be our future.

Be-careful of your wishes for football (and collateral damage to basketball), you would be begging for the Patriot league when we are playing NYU or Carnegie Mellon in front of a 100 people in the "historic: Ros Hill Gym.
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