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Old 12-27-2012, 08:43 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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I did not say it is only about the immediate, just that the ancient past does little now. You are talking 60 to 70 years ago.
Doesn't matter, outside the friendly confines of Rose Hill, those who have any idea of Fordham have heard about football - even though it is 80 years from the glory days.

Regardless, the effects of the program still being felt, in dollars and cents, that is a fact.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:10 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Given the above logic basketball is the program to drop. 3 million dollars spent on a smaller student athlete and staff base makes it the most expensive losing program in Fordham Athletics, if not the country.

What this poster fails to realize is that football alums and supporters are the most important and active donor bases that Fordham has. Without football there would be zero interest in our athletics.

Fordham basketball fans, with mythical visions of dancing down the road to the final four have to understand it will never happen. Iona, Manhattan, Fairfield have all had more NCAA appearances (and even some victories) and it didn't move their national prominence one inch.

Lie to yourself, the board, and other Fordham fans, but if football was to go, it is far more likely that the money saved would go to our operating budget, not basketball. In fact it would be likely that D3 would be our future.

Be-careful of your wishes for football (and collateral damage to basketball), you would be begging for the Patriot league when we are playing NYU or Carnegie Mellon in front of a 100 people in the "historic: Ros Hill Gym.
Going to the PL is the same as going DIII, I will not support the program either way so I would not care. Football has some big time donors no doubt, but they are old and there unwillingness to let go of the ancient past is hurting Fordham's ability to move forward in a sport it should be concentrating on, basketball. The well of donations will go away when these guys leave, there are no young football donors looking to pump that kind of money into an FCS program. Fordham needs to look to the future and move on from the ancient past.

As for where the money would go, who knows maybe the administration calls a meeting with all of the big donors and says we are going to put the money into basketball here is a our plan and we need your support. Will the football donors step up and do what is right for Fordham or will they go home and watch their tapes of Vince Lombardi and dream of the years gone by. Football supporters look backwards to justify their support, basketball supporters despite our lack of success in the past, look to the future and what a successful basketball program could bring to Univesity in terms of national recognition.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Going to the PL is the same as going DIII, I will not support the program either way so I would not care. Football has some big time donors no doubt, but they are old and there unwillingness to let go of the ancient past is hurting Fordham's ability to move forward in a sport it should be concentrating on, basketball. The well of donations will go away when these guys leave, there are no young football donors looking to pump that kind of money into an FCS program. Fordham needs to look to the future and move on from the ancient past.

As for where the money would go, who knows maybe the administration calls a meeting with all of the big donors and says we are going to put the money into basketball here is a our plan and we need your support. Will the football donors step up and do what is right for Fordham or will they go home and watch their tapes of Vince Lombardi and dream of the years gone by. Football supporters look backwards to justify their support, basketball supporters despite our lack of success in the past, look to the future and what a successful basketball program could bring to Univesity in terms of national recognition.
A familiar refrain, basketball does poorly look for a scapegoat - often our football program. We don't live in the past, we celebrate it. Our current program is a tribute to it, and we are at a point were shades of the past are back (in our annual FBS game). Over the last ten years we have been a .500 team with two championships, and for our dedicated student athletes, coaches, staff and fans it is about winning, regardless FBS or FCS.

Since, with a small minority, it is all about knocking football, to elevate basketball; let me say that when times were hard in the early years of the patriot league we didn't blame basketball or the other sports.

The fact remains Basketball has been a dismal failure, not even making the confrence tournament, for the overwhelming majority of the last 20 years/ The program is a complete joke, outside Fordham ... on second thought maybe you are right, we would get our a** kicked in the PL, might as well continue to be a joke in the A10.

T
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:46 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Doesn't matter, outside the friendly confines of Rose Hill, those who have any idea of Fordham have heard about football - even though it is 80 years from the glory days.
Not that a Bonnie needs to jump into your little argument, but I had no idea Fordham had a football team. When they joined the A-10, I remembered a fleeting year or two from the MAAC days because 2/3 of the Little 3 joined the MAAC. Part of that was ignorance on my part - I never followed A-10 football so how would I know? But mostly it's because outside of the Fordham area of the Bronx, does anyone really know about FU football?

You guys' resources are stretched too thin, so you underproduce in both FB and BB. It's NYC, the Bronx, you should put the resources into BB and recruit local talent. You've overpaid for coaches that couldn't recruit players in order for the program to take off. Every team in the league would take Gaston, but who's around him? Pour the money into BB - FCS football is a lost cause.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:56 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Not that a Bonnie needs to jump into your little argument, but I had no idea Fordham had a football team. When they joined the A-10, I remembered a fleeting year or two from the MAAC days because 2/3 of the Little 3 joined the MAAC. Part of that was ignorance on my part - I never followed A-10 football so how would I know? But mostly it's because outside of the Fordham area of the Bronx, does anyone really know about FU football?

You guys' resources are stretched too thin, so you underproduce in both FB and BB. It's NYC, the Bronx, you should put the resources into BB and recruit local talent. You've overpaid for coaches that couldn't recruit players in order for the program to take off. Every team in the league would take Gaston, but who's around him? Pour the money into BB - FCS football is a lost cause.
Many know about our football program, but regardless it is an important source of donations for the University. I understand your perspective about pouring resources into basketball, because that is your identity. Fact is for Fordham it is important to do both, but in the end if you can't win at one level, it is better to consider an alternative - and the MAAC or PL gives us a better chance in BB. We just can't win in the A10.

Basketball needs a hungry young coach, who can take us to a few championships in another conference - maybe after a decade or so, another conference may come to court us. Now we are not attractive to anyone - it is about winning whether it is woman's softball or water polo, etc...
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:10 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

What are some recent examples of universities that saw significant improvement in basketball after cutting football? It doesn't look like that happened at Hofstra, Northeastern or Boston University. Or St. John's, come to think of it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:18 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Not that a Bonnie needs to jump into your little argument, but I had no idea Fordham had a football team. When they joined the A-10, I remembered a fleeting year or two from the MAAC days because 2/3 of the Little 3 joined the MAAC. Part of that was ignorance on my part - I never followed A-10 football so how would I know? But mostly it's because outside of the Fordham area of the Bronx, does anyone really know about FU football?

You guys' resources are stretched too thin, so you underproduce in both FB and BB. It's NYC, the Bronx, you should put the resources into BB and recruit local talent. You've overpaid for coaches that couldn't recruit players in order for the program to take off. Every team in the league would take Gaston, but who's around him? Pour the money into BB - FCS football is a lost cause.
Exactly. The oldtimers who remember the days of Lombardi fail to grasp the reality of the situation: FCS football does not matter and football's glory years are so far removed from the modern world they are irrelevent except for a handful of Fordham alumni.

In reality the best situation would be for Fordham to be successful in both basketball and football. If it comes down to choosing on or the other becasue trying to do both is not working, there is no contest we would get a lot more out of a successful basketball program than a successful FCS football program.

Our future should be as a top notch basketball program, think Georgetown.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:32 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Many know about our football program, but regardless it is an important source of donations for the University. I understand your perspective about pouring resources into basketball, because that is your identity. Fact is for Fordham it is important to do both, but in the end if you can't win at one level, it is better to consider an alternative - and the MAAC or PL gives us a better chance in BB. We just can't win in the A10.

Basketball needs a hungry young coach, who can take us to a few championships in another conference - maybe after a decade or so, another conference may come to court us. Now we are not attractive to anyone - it is about winning whether it is woman's softball or water polo, etc...
I think I understand what you're after, but I have a few observations for you, and a couple questions:
  1. You state that the "heavy athletic donors" at Fordham are football-centric. If part of the strategy is to appease this group in order to continue a flow of financial support to the University, how long do you run with THAT strategy: demographics and time are deteriorating this segment by the day; and
  2. Do their dollars match or exceed what is available if Fordham were running a D1A hoops program at a high level, knowing that it is running a football program at a level that is otherwise considered to be out of the running or obsolete or not financially viable?

You guys know your athletics challenges and opportunities better than the rest of us, but I can assure you that Xavier did drop D1A football after the 1973 season because it wasn't sustainable. That wasn't a great strategic decision at that time (i.e. it would take another 7 years before X saw the value of investing in and building up a top-flight basketball program). Nonetheless, it dropped a football program that once had won the precursor to the Fiesta Bowl and otherwise put players and coaches into the NFL.

I can only judge decisions against what I've seen Xavier accomplish, and what I've seen it accomplish over the last 3 decades is rather remarkable. The basketball program was brought out of the ashes. I loved Xavier when I was there and I received a great education while there, but the place isn't recognizable to people who were there as recently as two decades ago, and it's going to materially change again over the next decade. None of that growth and positive development - NONE OF IT - would have occurred without the economic and marketing engine that basketball delivers.

In 2012, Catholic schools can do with basketball, on a relative basis, what ND did with football for much of the 20th Century. Otherwise, football for any Catholic school other than ND, save possibly for BC if it still can land on its feet in the realignment carnival, cannot be positioned to be a material, net positive economic driver. In fact, more often that not, it will be a net user of funds. And even if it could be made to be a positive financial contributor, it will never match what can be generated via basketball in the modern era.

My sig line on the Xavier board footnotes Xavier's Forbes Ranking among the top basketball programs in the nation (20 schools ranked). It's one of three private schools that make that ranking every year: Duke, Syracuse and Xavier. I'm not bragging about it in pointing it out. I created that sig line to remind us how beneficial running a top-shelf basketball program can be. Everyone should want their program to be capable of getting there. Everyone should want to be able to affiliate with programs like that. Yet getting there requires focus, and sometimes it requires hard decisions.

If the answer to my first question is "they're still around and contributing at well above $6mm per year", then I guess it will be business as usual at Fordham for a while. But how many more flags flying at half mast is Fordham away from having to rethink its strategic direction for football?
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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What are some recent examples of universities that saw significant improvement in basketball after cutting football? It doesn't look like that happened at Hofstra, Northeastern or Boston University. Or St. John's, come to think of it.
I think you have to look at what happened with the money saved when football was dropped. The only way it would work is if Fordham said we are dropping football and putting that money into basketball to improve the facilities. Xavier had a specific plan for basketball and executed it including putting the highest percentage of its athletic budget towards basketball. Their alumni jumped on the bandwagon and got behind the effort and the results speak for themselves. Georgetown spends less than half of what Fordham spends on football and its basketball budget dwarfs ours. Fordhanm spends 20% of its athletic budget on FCS football. It is crazy since even if you win no one cares about FCS football.

XUDash you hit the nail on the head with the aging football donor base. It will not last and Fordham needs to plan for the future instead catering to those who live in the past.

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Old 12-27-2012, 10:58 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

If the A-10 is going to blow up, then those of us remaining in the A-10 need Fordham basketball to be on the highest level it can be. Your football program is functioning in obscurity and your basketball program is close to it. The ROI on FCS football is obviously significant enough for schools to keep the programs around, but what is the ROI at Fordham, specifically? As "XU dash" points out, maybe that number is enough to warrant keeping the program. If that's the case, and "business as usual" is here to stay at Fordham, then I'd say move on to a new league. It will come down to dollars and cents, and whether or not building a strong BB prorgam will offset any revenue lost by dropping FB. Someone will have to do the math. From the A-10 perspective it is far better interest of the conference for you to focus on BB.

Duquesne folks out there - how's FCS football treating you guys? Was it worth decimating men's Olympic sports for football, i.e. has the "donorship" increased enough to well offset the cost of running the team? Just curious.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:32 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

Last I remember seeing, Fordham football was near even due to donations. In other words, donations mostly off-set the cost. I do think that is changing and will continue to change due to the inevitable. They will need some younger guys to step up with big donations if they plan to sustain the near break even they have now.

I don't know what football does for overall donorship. That's a good question posed by BrownIndian85 to the Duquesne fans, but also important for any program in any sport. If donatins are only keeping the program afloat, is it really worth it? I would say that if the program can bring you national recognition and in turn increase your applicant pool, better the quality of the applicant, then yes it is worth it. Can an FCS program do that? My opinion is that it cannot, but others might disagree.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:16 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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Last I remember seeing, Fordham football was near even due to donations. In other words, donations mostly off-set the cost. I do think that is changing and will continue to change due to the inevitable. They will need some younger guys to step up with big donations if they plan to sustain the near break even they have now.

I don't know what football does for overall donorship. That's a good question posed by BrownIndian85 to the Duquesne fans, but also important for any program in any sport. If donatins are only keeping the program afloat, is it really worth it? I would say that if the program can bring you national recognition and in turn increase your applicant pool, better the quality of the applicant, then yes it is worth it. Can an FCS program do that? My opinion is that it cannot, but others might disagree.
And most would agree with you.

We're kinda into Marketing 101 here with respect to brand management. Successful athletic programs that attain some amount of national stature broaden reach, which broadens awareness. The more people there are that are aware of such a school, the more they may want to share in taking pride in it. So, applicant pools do increase. Those prideful alumni donate more overtime. Better yet, those applicant pools end up generating a more effective mix of students.

Fordham is positioned to be a good school for a long time. But Fordham is otherwise missing out on achieving its full potential.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:23 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

heavy athletic donors at Fordham are football-centric.


Well yes, there are some overweight old men sitting around drowning in their beers, dreaming of those football games 80 years ago against NYU at the Polo Grounds and shouting "Rose Hill to the Rose Bowl!" to no one in particular.

However, not all of them are delusional They understand that the success of football and basketball programs is not inexplicably tied to both being in the PL. They understand that both programs can be successful in their present conferences and that, above all, what is needed is a University President with the vision to understand how a successful athletic program can compliment and enhance the school's academic success.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:53 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

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What are some recent examples of universities that saw significant improvement in basketball after cutting football? It doesn't look like that happened at Hofstra, Northeastern or Boston University. Or St. John's, come to think of it.
I know that the move has not had much impact on Hofstra's best programs: lacrosse and softball. The decline in St. John's basketball has had very little to do with football.

However, the issue being posed by the OP is not the downgrading of football but that of basketball. Can anyone think of a situation where a basketball program downgraded its D1 conference affiliation and improved its program. I cannot think of one, in fact, the only program that I recall that ever stayed in D1 but downgraded its conference affiliation was Fordham's disastrous move to the PL. A move the OP is advocating that Fordham once again make.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:59 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Re: Fordham to the Patriot League??????

RickFC77, I think LastMinuteman understands the OP's proposal as he earlier asked a question regarding that.
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What are some examples of athletic programs that had more success and generated more fan interest after downgrading?
Similarly he is now asking about the latest proposal/suggestion or whatever you want to call it posed by Rich93, the dropping of football.
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