C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? - Page 5 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

AlumniFan · 02-17-2013, 11:53 AM

I'm a Saint Louis U. fan and I, too, am very nervous. I think only X and Butler are locks. Everyone else is hoping, and, yes, that is Dayton too.

I wish the A10 would stay as it is and add GTown and Marquette. Let the other five and their inflated sense of self-importance go do what they want. The new new A10 would be a powerhouse league with MU and GTown. I know this has already been mentioned and is completely absurd, but it would be my preference.

UMass87 · 02-17-2013, 12:02 PM

I think SLU is a near-lock because of the geography. The more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that they will go to either 12 or 14. In either case, SLU is almost a certainty. Geography matters with regards to non-revenue teams and the C7 has a chance to build a very sensible East/West conference which will be one of the best, if not the best, basketball conference in the country.

paulxu · 02-17-2013, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antboy

in a fairly nice arena in downtown Albany, are centered in a decent-sized media area (though probably not quite as big as Richmond),

Same size markets, #57 and #58 per Nielsen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eight Legger

You would have thought Richmond was located in South Carolina and not 90 minutes away.

They should be so lucky,

BmoreX · 02-17-2013, 03:14 PM

No need to worry:

Quote:

“It’s always flattering when the college’s name is put in a group of schools like that,” Siena athletic director John D’Argenio said today while attending the women’s basketball game. “But it’s just somebody that wrote an article and speculates.”

D’Argenio said Siena hasn’t been contacted by representatives from any of the Catholic 7 schools.

“Nobody’s made any outreaches or overtures, and I don’t know who they’ve made outreaches or overtures to,” D’Argenio said. “But I know it’s not us.”

http://blog.timesunion.com/collegesp...-invite/15440/

Muddy Waters · 02-18-2013, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bprichard

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"In all likelihood, four schools are virtual locks to be invited: Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler."

"The conference leaders want six eastern and six western — really, midwestern — schools."

"The eastern division of the league will consist of Georgetown, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond (also a non-Catholic school) or Siena ..."

For a long time, I have thought that the University of Richmond would be the ideal 12th school for the new conference:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on November 2, 2011

If a new Big East non-football conference emerges, two of the primary objectives of the new conference will be long-term stability and common tradition - not just immediate impact.

2010-11 NCAA Men's Basketball Attendance (ncaa.org)

Code:

11. Marquette   15,586
25. Georgetown  12,675
27. Dayton      12,567
38. Villanova   10,511
44. Xavier      10,098

57. St. John's   8,431
62. Seton Hall   7,937
64. Notre Dame   7,785
67. DePaul       7,676
73. Butler       7,178
76. Providence   7,043
84. St. Louis    6,299
89. Richmond     5,959

Men's Basketball Final 2011 RPI Rankings (ncaa.org)

# 19 - Butler
# 25 - Xavier
# 33 - Richmond
# 79 - Dayton
# 184 - St. Louis

Men's Basketball Final 2010 RPI Rankings (ncaa.org)

# 7 - Butler
# 17 - Xavier
# 26 - Richmond
# 36 - Dayton
# 80 - St. Louis

Men's Basketball Final 2009 RPI Rankings (ncaa.org)

# 15 - Xavier
# 25 - Butler
# 27 - Dayton
# 125 - Richmond
# 128 - St. Louis

Men's Basketball Final 2008 RPI Rankings (ncaa.org)

# 7 - Xavier
# 13 - Butler
# 24 - Dayton
# 130 - Richmond
# 138 - St. Louis

Men's Basketball Final RPI Rankings: 4-Year Averages:

# 16 - Butler
# 16 - Xavier
# 42 - Dayton
# 79 - Richmond
# 133 - St. Louis

Final RPI Rankings: 2002-03 through 2011-12 (compiled by 434)

Code:

Team	  02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08 08-09 09-10 10-11 11-12  Avg RPI

Marquette     7    67    94    40    26    20    27    56    49     9     39.5
Villanova    83    53    14     2    19    42     8    15    45   121     40.2
Georgetown   74   138    77    26     6     8    66    16    15    14     44.0
Seton Hall   45    21   133    62   156   113   101    70   103    69     87.3
Providence   56    23    93   105    78   109    77   147   158	  156    100.2
St Johns     52   166   167   135   131   156   140    78    25   153    120.3
DePaul       81    30    63    90    56   157   205   217   233   194    132.6

Xavier       23    20   130    72    27     9    15    17    26    37     37.6
Butler       21   152   239    80    22    16    22     7    19   105     68.3
Dayton       17    37   117   184    76    28    26    37    80    91     69.3
Saint Louis  77    58   184   102    74   135   130    80   183    28    105.1
Richmond    106    39   146   205   272   129   124    24    33   131    120.9

Creighton    24    74    48    46    22    47    46   106   113    23     54.9
VCU  	   135    45    91    74    44    60    51    46    31    34     61.1
St Joes	    29     2    47    53    97    50   105   184   163    75     80.5
  
URI	    92    69   301   152   108    74    61    36   103   262    125.8
GW	   163    65    61    31    70   185   203   148   150   189    126.5
LaSalle	   189   170   215   103   268   163   110   178   172    96    166.4
Duquesne    252   162   258   308   219   130    76   112   100   110    172.7

St Bona     139   210   312   289   278   265   199   156   128    78    205.4
Fordham     282   212   189   138   112   172   292   304   255   242    220.2

Quote:

Originally Posted by bprichard

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"The eastern division of the league will consist of Georgetown, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond (also a non-Catholic school) or Siena — a late entry but a potentially appealing one because it’s a Catholic school that (more importantly) plays in a 15,500-seat arena in Albany, N.Y."

Size does matter.

UD Arena is one of eight historic sites the NCAA has selected to host the 75th
anniversary of the tournament in 2013.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bprichard

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"Now it appears that the Catholic 7 may launch as early as next season as a two-division, 12-team league with a TV contract that will probably be comparable to what the former Big East schools would have made if they had accepted ESPN’s offer."

Muddy Waters · 02-18-2013, 04:35 AM

Promotion Will Be Key to Big East Future (A Jersey Guy - February 14, 2013)

Let’s compare the old Big East with the new group, with the Catholic 7 foundation and possible additions. Take a look at the records of the teams and the latest RPI rankings.

Old Big East (Records, RPI rankings)

1. UConn (17-6, 20)
2. Memphis (21-3, 29)
3. Cincinnati (19-6, 34)
4. Temple (16-7, 40)
5. UCF (17-7, 83)
6 East Carolina (14-9, 111)
7. South Florida (10-14, 122)
8. Tulsa (13-11, 127)
9. Tulane (16-9, 147)
10. SMU (13-12, 186)
11. Houston (15-8, 203)

CATHOLIC 7 (Records, RPI rankings)

1. Marquette (17-6, 15)
2. Butler (20-5, 17)
3. Georgetown (18-4, 19)
4. VCU (19-5, 37)
5. St. John’s (15-9, 53)
6. Saint Louis (18-5, 56)
7. Villanova (15-10, 63)
8. Xavier (14-9, 89)
9. Providence (13-11, 92)
10. Seton Hall (13-12, 103)
11. Dayton (13-11, 126)
12. DePaul (10-14, 177)

Right now , the Catholic 7 group has the big edge. Eleven of 12 of the projected teams–and the assumption here is that the Catholic 7 won’t hear a No from anyone in that group–have winning records. Three are ranked in the Top 20 in the RPI ratings, 4 are in the Top 40 and 9 are in the Top 100.

Presumably, that would mean a minimum of 4 NCAA tournament bids and perhaps as many as 5 or 6.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Records and RPI Rankings on Monday, February 18, 2013:

Butler (20-5, 18)
Saint Louis (19-5, 45)
Richmond (15-11, 81)
Xavier (14-10, 98)
Dayton (14-11, 121)

paulxu · 02-18-2013, 04:35 AM

If arena size (not market) was the determining factor, I'm pretty sure Creighton's 18,320 would win hands down:

Muddy Waters · 02-18-2013, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulxu

If arena size (not market) was the determining factor, I'm pretty sure Creighton's 18,320 would win hands down.

I have never posted that arena size "was the determining factor" - only that it was a factor that mattered, along with basketball tradition, commonality of future aspirations, religious affiliation, RPI Rankings, TV market size, TV market penetration, attendance, and NCAA Tournament success.

I have no idea what relative weightings the Catholic 7 schools and TV networks are putting on these various criteria - only that these criteria are being taken into consideration to some unknown extent by all parties involved.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning Creighton:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on September 21, 2011

Creighton is in f**king Nebraska, and the good folks in Providence, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. don't want to travel that far to play basketball.

Or any other sport.

The prospect of Creighton actually receiving an invitation to join a non-football Big East Conference is so remote that it isn't worth thinking about, let alone discussing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bprichard on February 17, 2013

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"Creighton, another Catholic school considered a potential candidate, is considered too far west (Omaha, Neb.) for teams in non-revenue sports to travel."

Creighton didn't make the cut, due to its location:

(1) Omaha is too far away from the other 11 schools.

(2) Creighton would be the 7th team in a 6-team Western Division.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, all of the discussions that the Catholic 7 schools have had with the various TV networks have apparently been based on the assumption of 11 specified teams (including Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler) and a 12th yet-to-be-specified school to be added to the East Division.

If any fewer than 11 schools were specified, the various TV networks would not be able to carry out the TV market analyses and related financial calculations concerning their anticipated rate of return on their potential investment for the TV rights to the new Catholic 7 conference.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VCU is apparently out of the running (as it is a large State-supported school), leaving the final choice between Richmond and other schools that I believe will lose out to Richmond.

Richmond would add great balance to the new Catholic 7 conference, as both the East and West Divisions would have one private, non-Catholic university which espouses Christian values and Christian tradition - a perfect counterpart to the West Division's Butler University.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostonspider on October 7, 2011

bprichard · 02-18-2013, 05:07 AM

I think Creighton genuinely is out due to geography. The C7+additions will be making good money, but it's not exactly football money. The additional travel to Omaha will cut into the funds that can be funneled into basketball, and the members of the new conference are desperate to remain relevant in basketball. Any money that is being spent on non-priority sports is undesirable.

On the other hand, I don't know what the marginal travel costs for traveling to Omaha as opposed to Dayton or Saint Louis would be, but it probably adds up. Add in the fact that the Omaha market is smaller than Saint Louis and the same as Dayton and that there are no guarantees that they'll be ranked anytime soon once McDermott leaves, Creighton doesn't seem like a great option.

/wishful thinker, wants Dayton to be included

jdm2000 · 02-18-2013, 06:46 AM

"BTW, all of the discussions that the Catholic 7 schools have had with the various TV networks have apparently been based on the assumption of 11 specified teams (including Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler) and a 12th yet-to-be-specified school to be added to the East Division."

Muddy, what is your source for this? The Feinstein article?

Eight Legger · 02-18-2013, 06:48 AM

You make some good points, Muddy. If we are invited to the new league, I would hope to see as many A-10 additions as possible. My first preference has always been to keep the A-10 together, but I guess since that won't be happening I'd like to see the C7 as strong as possible.

letsgogdub · 02-18-2013, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eight Legger

My first preference has always been to keep the A-10 together, but I guess since that won't be happening I'd like to see the C7 as strong as possible.

And so it goes...

Muddy Waters · 02-18-2013, 09:11 AM

The anticipated departures of Temple, Charlotte, Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, Butler, and Richmond from the Atlantic 10 will leave a hole big enough to drive a truck through:

Atlantic 10 Standings (ESPN - Monday, February 18, 2013)

Code:

    TEAM            CONF   GB     OVR 

 1. VCU              9-2   ---   21-5 
    Saint Louis      8-2   0.5   19-5 
    #11 Butler       8-3   1     21-5  
 2. La Salle         8-3   1     18-6 
    Xavier           7-4   2     14-10
    Charlotte        6-5   3     18-7 
    Temple           6-5   3     17-8  
 3. Massachusetts    6-5   3     16-8 
 4. Geo. Washington  5-5   3.5   11-12 
 5. St. Joseph's     5-6   4     14-10 
    Richmond         5-6   4     15-11
    Dayton           4-7   5     14-11  
 6. St. Bonaventure  4-7   5     11-13
 7. Rhode Island     3-8   6     8-16
 8. Fordham          2-9   7     6-20 
 9. Duquesne         1-10  8     8-17

The additions of George Mason, Old Dominion, and Davidson would help replenish the number of schools:

Atlantic 10 North Division

Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Fordham
La Salle
St. Joseph's
St. Bonaventure

Atlantic 10 South Division

Duquesne
Geo. Washington
George Mason
VCU
Old Dominion
Davidson

. . . but the 'new' Atlantic 10 will likely soon become a 'one NCAA Invitation' conference.

Shaka Smart is smart enough to see the writing on the wall and I expect that he will accept one of the $1,000,000 per year offers from a 'Big 7' school after this season ends.

UMass87 · 02-18-2013, 09:14 AM

Muddy - the C7 heard about you and decided they don't want Dayton.

MudFlap · 02-18-2013, 09:23 AM

UD out if 10, marginal if 12, in if 14. Not sure why they want in. No way they ever get to .500 in the C7+.
Kinda like the kid who keeps flunking general math, so they put him in advanced calculus.

02-17-2013, 11:53 AM	#61 (permalink)
AlumniFan Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 1523	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? I'm a Saint Louis U. fan and I, too, am very nervous. I think only X and Butler are locks. Everyone else is hoping, and, yes, that is Dayton too. I wish the A10 would stay as it is and add GTown and Marquette. Let the other five and their inflated sense of self-importance go do what they want. The new new A10 would be a powerhouse league with MU and GTown. I know this has already been mentioned and is completely absurd, but it would be my preference.

02-17-2013, 12:02 PM	#62 (permalink)
UMass87 Star Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,727 Rep Power: 226644	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? I think SLU is a near-lock because of the geography. The more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that they will go to either 12 or 14. In either case, SLU is almost a certainty. Geography matters with regards to non-revenue teams and the C7 has a chance to build a very sensible East/West conference which will be one of the best, if not the best, basketball conference in the country.

02-18-2013, 04:35 AM	#66 (permalink)
Muddy Waters All-Star Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Westmont Illinois Cemetery Age: 98 Posts: 5,288 Rep Power: 64500	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? Promotion Will Be Key to Big East Future (A Jersey Guy - February 14, 2013) Let’s compare the old Big East with the new group, with the Catholic 7 foundation and possible additions. Take a look at the records of the teams and the latest RPI rankings. Old Big East (Records, RPI rankings) 1. UConn (17-6, 20) 2. Memphis (21-3, 29) 3. Cincinnati (19-6, 34) 4. Temple (16-7, 40) 5. UCF (17-7, 83) 6 East Carolina (14-9, 111) 7. South Florida (10-14, 122) 8. Tulsa (13-11, 127) 9. Tulane (16-9, 147) 10. SMU (13-12, 186) 11. Houston (15-8, 203) CATHOLIC 7 (Records, RPI rankings) 1. Marquette (17-6, 15) 2. Butler (20-5, 17) 3. Georgetown (18-4, 19) 4. VCU (19-5, 37) 5. St. John’s (15-9, 53) 6. Saint Louis (18-5, 56) 7. Villanova (15-10, 63) 8. Xavier (14-9, 89) 9. Providence (13-11, 92) 10. Seton Hall (13-12, 103) 11. Dayton (13-11, 126) 12. DePaul (10-14, 177) Right now , the Catholic 7 group has the big edge. Eleven of 12 of the projected teams–and the assumption here is that the Catholic 7 won’t hear a No from anyone in that group–have winning records. Three are ranked in the Top 20 in the RPI ratings, 4 are in the Top 40 and 9 are in the Top 100. Presumably, that would mean a minimum of 4 NCAA tournament bids and perhaps as many as 5 or 6. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Records and RPI Rankings on Monday, February 18, 2013: Butler (20-5, 18) Saint Louis (19-5, 45) Richmond (15-11, 81) Xavier (14-10, 98) Dayton (14-11, 121) __________________ BIG EAST CONFERENCE IN 2014-15 Butler • Creighton • Dayton • DePaul • Georgetown • Marquette Providence • Seton Hall • St. John’s • Saint Louis • Villanova • Xavier

02-18-2013, 04:35 AM	#67 (permalink)
paulxu Veteran Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,409 Rep Power: 309022	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? If arena size (not market) was the determining factor, I'm pretty sure Creighton's 18,320 would win hands down: __________________ *...he went up late, and I was already up there.*

02-18-2013, 05:07 AM	#69 (permalink)
bprichard Veteran Join Date: May 2012 Location: Shanghai, China Age: 32 Posts: 1,065 Rep Power: 192540	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? I think Creighton genuinely is out due to geography. The C7+additions will be making good money, but it's not exactly football money. The additional travel to Omaha will cut into the funds that can be funneled into basketball, and the members of the new conference are desperate to remain relevant in basketball. Any money that is being spent on non-priority sports is undesirable. On the other hand, I don't know what the marginal travel costs for traveling to Omaha as opposed to Dayton or Saint Louis would be, but it probably adds up. Add in the fact that the Omaha market is smaller than Saint Louis and the same as Dayton and that there are no guarantees that they'll be ranked anytime soon once McDermott leaves, Creighton doesn't seem like a great option. /wishful thinker, wants Dayton to be included

02-18-2013, 06:46 AM	#70 (permalink)
jdm2000 Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 541 Rep Power: 21705	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? "BTW, all of the discussions that the Catholic 7 schools have had with the various TV networks have apparently been based on the assumption of 11 specified teams (including Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler) and a 12th yet-to-be-specified school to be added to the East Division." Muddy, what is your source for this? The Feinstein article?

02-18-2013, 06:48 AM	#71 (permalink)
Eight Legger 6th Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 422 Rep Power: 1323	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? You make some good points, Muddy. If we are invited to the new league, I would hope to see as many A-10 additions as possible. My first preference has always been to keep the A-10 together, but I guess since that won't be happening I'd like to see the C7 as strong as possible.

02-18-2013, 09:11 AM	#73 (permalink)
Muddy Waters All-Star Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Westmont Illinois Cemetery Age: 98 Posts: 5,288 Rep Power: 64500	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? The anticipated departures of Temple, Charlotte, Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, Butler, and Richmond from the Atlantic 10 will leave a hole big enough to drive a truck through: Atlantic 10 Standings (ESPN - Monday, February 18, 2013) Code: TEAM CONF GB OVR 1. VCU 9-2 --- 21-5 Saint Louis 8-2 0.5 19-5 #11 Butler 8-3 1 21-5 2. La Salle 8-3 1 18-6 Xavier 7-4 2 14-10 Charlotte 6-5 3 18-7 Temple 6-5 3 17-8 3. Massachusetts 6-5 3 16-8 4. Geo. Washington 5-5 3.5 11-12 5. St. Joseph's 5-6 4 14-10 Richmond 5-6 4 15-11 Dayton 4-7 5 14-11 6. St. Bonaventure 4-7 5 11-13 7. Rhode Island 3-8 6 8-16 8. Fordham 2-9 7 6-20 9. Duquesne 1-10 8 8-17 The additions of George Mason, Old Dominion, and Davidson would help replenish the number of schools: Atlantic 10 North Division Massachusetts Rhode Island Fordham La Salle St. Joseph's St. Bonaventure Atlantic 10 South Division Duquesne Geo. Washington George Mason VCU Old Dominion Davidson . . . but the 'new' Atlantic 10 will likely soon become a 'one NCAA Invitation' conference. Shaka Smart is smart enough to see the writing on the wall and I expect that he will accept one of the $1,000,000 per year offers from a 'Big 7' school after this season ends. __________________ BIG EAST CONFERENCE IN 2014-15 Butler • Creighton • Dayton • DePaul • Georgetown • Marquette Providence • Seton Hall • St. John’s • Saint Louis • Villanova • Xavier

02-18-2013, 09:14 AM	#74 (permalink)
UMass87 Star Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,727 Rep Power: 226644	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? Muddy - the C7 heard about you and decided they don't want Dayton.

02-18-2013, 09:23 AM	#75 (permalink)
MudFlap Star Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Victory Parkway Xavier University Posts: 3,644 Rep Power: 150436	Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams? UD out if 10, marginal if 12, in if 14. Not sure why they want in. No way they ever get to .500 in the C7+. Kinda like the kid who keeps flunking general math, so they put him in advanced calculus. Last edited by MudFlap; 02-18-2013 at 09:32 AM.

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