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Old 02-18-2013, 04:20 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by ThrowDownDBrown View Post
Other then being located further east what exactly puts UD ahead of Creighton?
Nowhere in that post did I state that Dayton is more appealing for other reasons. But if I had to name a couple, they would be historical rivalries (X, obviously, DePaul and Marquette from olden times, Butler from the MCC days, SLU if both are invited) and large east coast alumni base.

And if I had to name a third, it's the Flyer classic potential. Once McDermott is out, Creighton remains a school with a passionate fan base stuck in a godawful recruiting area. They're a basketball school stuck in a sparsely populated football state. Dayton at least has a robust local area to recruit with access to other major basketball markets (Chicago, Indiana, admittedly not much recruiting success there at the moment, and Michigan).
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by UMass87 View Post
eight legger - I wasn't attacking UR (and you should note that I didn't include UR among the underachievers in a previous post) but, rather, attacking the idea that the bottom of the C7 isn't good. Asserting that the bottom of the C7 isn't good is an indefensible point - they are better than all but the top of the A10. Many here don't want to acknowledge it but reality is reality. The bottom of the C7 is on par with UR, UD and SJU.
That said, you are helping the one with many legs point, which is why should those teams which are on par with average A10 teams be calling the shots for what the A10 ultimately becomes?
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:42 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Because the A10 has the seven teams I listed that for a decade (for some, an eternity) have held the A10 back in basketball. Half of the A10 hasn't done squat in basketball for the past decade which pretty much means the A10 has no say. The A10 did the best they could by bringing in Butler and VCU. That's about all the A10 could do.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:34 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by bprichard View Post
Nowhere in that post did I state that Dayton is more appealing for other reasons. But if I had to name a couple, they would be historical rivalries (X, obviously, DePaul and Marquette from olden times, Butler from the MCC days, SLU if both are invited) and large east coast alumni base.

And if I had to name a third, it's the Flyer classic potential. Once McDermott is out, Creighton remains a school with a passionate fan base stuck in a godawful recruiting area. They're a basketball school stuck in a sparsely populated football state. Dayton at least has a robust local area to recruit with access to other major basketball markets (Chicago, Indiana, admittedly not much recruiting success there at the moment, and Michigan).
Creighton has made the tourney before young McDermott came and they will make more after he's gone. Plus coach McDermott took Northern Iowa to 3 straight NCAA appearances so he has proven he can win in the MVC. The C7 is a different animal but he's won more in his career then any recent UD coach. Dayton has been nothing but "potential" for two decades now. Prunell and Gregory could both only muster 2 NCAA appearances in each of their 8 years at UD and Miller has done nothing to impress so far.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:46 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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They just won a first round game last year. And the MVC is right behind the MW and A 10 in best non BCS conferences.
You have the placement of leagues correctly, but the MVC isn't "right behind". The Mountain West tops the A10 because it doesn't have uncompetitive program(s) dragging the rear. It's a wide, wide gap back to the Valley. The MVC is a good, competitive league that typically produces 1 really good team per year, but it has 2 at-large bids in the last 6 years. It will likely get one at large this year, making 3 in seven years. The A10 had 3 last year alone.

Creighton is a really good program and is having a damn good 2 year run. We'll see if it lasts beyond the little McDermott era. Prior to this year against Wisconsin and Arizona St, Creighton was more of an Omaha mirage than anything. They don't really win many games against teams of note away from their home gym OOC (road or neutral, regular or post season).

Provided the new league does go to 12 or more teams, Creighton will likely get in. But given that they play in a significantly lesser league, there's really nothing on the floor that separates them from Dayton or SLU. All three are very good tweener programs (not quite major but clearly above mid-major) that have their ups and downs.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:00 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bprichard on February 17, 2013 View Post

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"In all likelihood, four schools are virtual locks to be invited: Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler."

"The conference leaders want six eastern and six western ó really, midwestern ó schools."

"The eastern division of the league will consist of Georgetown, St. Johnís, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond (also a non-Catholic school) or Siena ..."
It looks like Douggie is reading this thread:


Dayton 'Lock' for New League? (Doug Harris, DDN - February 18, 2013)

Dayton was called in all likelihood a "virtual lock" to join the new league with the breakaway schools from the Big East, the so-called "Catholic 7," according to respected national columnist John Feinstein of the Washington Post.

He seemed to have more concrete information than Iíve seen anywhere else on the topic.

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:00 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?


An interesting sub-plot to The Big Story will be the shift in the balance of power in the city of Richmond if the Spiders do get the 12th invitation to the new C7 conference.

If the University of Richmond starts getting $4,000,000 per year and the Spidersí games on national TV on a regular basis, and VCU starts getting $150,000 per year while their Rams disappear from our TV screens, a shift in the balance of power is inevitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mateer on January 6, 2013 View Post


WTF $500 Milly to C7? - Post # 1

'Catholic 7' Banking on Big Payday with New TV Deal (CBS Sports - January 6, 2013)

Reportedly, the Catholic 7 stands to earn more than $4 million per school with a new TV deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post

New Atlantic 10 Television Contract (Big East Coast Bias - October 3, 2012)

Quote:
The Atlantic 10 announced a new television contract with ESPN, CBS, and NBC.

Sources close to the deal say that the 16-school conference will earn $40 million over the eight years, or split $5 million a season.

$5 million per year, split between 14 teams means each school will get a little more than $350,000 per year from the television contract.
The anticipated departures of Temple, Charlotte, Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, Butler, and Richmond from the Atlantic 10 will allow ESPN, CBS, and NBC to declare their existing TV contracts with the A10 null and void, on the grounds that the composition of the Atlantic 10 has fundamentally changed for the worse, i.e., the actual A10 teams going forward are not what the TV contracts were based on.

ESPN, CBS, and NBC will then be in the driver's seat for new TV contracts for the remains of the Atlantic 10, which might amount to $150,000 per A10 school per year, if that.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:00 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone on this board discussed the agreement(s), if any, that Butler and VCU made in joining the A-10. I think its fair to say both schools wanted a 'higher' profile conference affiliation for their basketball teams. Presumably by joining the A-10 both schools gave up a fair amount of guaranteed money in terms of NCAA credits over the nextseveral years. Not only that, but there was a pretty good chance had they stayed in their prior conference of getting future bids to the tourney and the attendant credits. Its possible, but I find it hard to believe that Butler and VCU made the leap without some assurance from Dayton, St. Louis and Xavier that they were staying for a set period, or that there was an all for one, one for all agreement. After all, many people felt it wasn't a matter of if, but rather when the C7 would leave their football counterparts.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:29 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Medford, why are you under the impression that few Big East teams play soccer? Did you mean women's? I have not looked at them, but I know the men have a 14 team conference w/ all C7 participating.
Then perhaps I was making assumptions. I know some schools, like Marquette don't play baseball, when I looked at Seton Hall's schedule there was a lot of Big East teams missing from it. Look at Marquette's athletic page today, they only played 8 conference games, which included two games with Notre Dame. They didn't play Louisville or UC at all until the Big East tournament. They never played Rutgers, South Florida, Syracuse or a handful of other big East teams (assuming as the 14 team conference is correct) so even in soccer, there is some attempt to consolidate the schedule I'll assume making travel easier. Seton Hall's swimming and Diving schedule consisted of a number of "meets" 2 big east teams and a Big East championship in Indy of all places (I know they're swimming venue rocks, perhaps IUPUI is a Big East member in swimming/diving?, they're weren't one of the 2 teams astericked on seton Hall's schedule as conference matches)

Anyhoo the point, is that there is obviously some attempt w/n the conference to mimize travel among non revenue sports. I don't know how much that limits the inclusion of Creighton or not, but its something that can't be dismissed quite as easily as some message board posters would like. Its ture that the brunt of the travel would be place on Creighton, but I doubt the AD at Seton Hall relishes sending his baseball team to omaha, then having them board a plane for Indy for a weekend set (assuming both play baseball). Perhaps its something he's willing to do to help the bread and butter Basketball program, but it is a concession worth considering.

At any rate, I'll stick by my belief that we'll start getting more and more leaks the closer we get to the NCAA tournament and that offical announcements will be made final 4 weekend at the peak of college basketball. I'm of the belief that 95% of everything important has already been ironed out for some time now.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:35 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by College Hoops View Post
Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone on this board discussed the agreement(s), if any, that Butler and VCU made in joining the A-10. I think its fair to say both schools wanted a 'higher' profile conference affiliation for their basketball teams. Presumably by joining the A-10 both schools gave up a fair amount of guaranteed money in terms of NCAA credits over the nextseveral years. Not only that, but there was a pretty good chance had they stayed in their prior conference of getting future bids to the tourney and the attendant credits. Its possible, but I find it hard to believe that Butler and VCU made the leap without some assurance from Dayton, St. Louis and Xavier that they were staying for a set period, or that there was an all for one, one for all agreement. After all, many people felt it wasn't a matter of if, but rather when the C7 would leave their football counterparts.
I've read on a couple different boards that there was a gentleman's agreement b/w UD & Xavier with butler that they wouldn't take off for another conference w/o taking Butler with them. Certainly seems like Butler is higher in the peeking order; I have no idea how much truth there is to it, I doubt there was anything more than a gentleman's agreement, but you would certainly expect that Butler would want those assurances from the teams located around them rather than finding themselves in a conference w/ few (if any) neighboring schools.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:38 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
Then perhaps I was making assumptions. I know some schools, like Marquette don't play baseball, when I looked at Seton Hall's schedule there was a lot of Big East teams missing from it. Look at Marquette's athletic page today, they only played 8 conference games, which included two games with Notre Dame. They didn't play Louisville or UC at all until the Big East tournament. They never played Rutgers, South Florida, Syracuse or a handful of other big East teams (assuming as the 14 team conference is correct) so even in soccer, there is some attempt to consolidate the schedule I'll assume making travel easier. Seton Hall's swimming and Diving schedule consisted of a number of "meets" 2 big east teams and a Big East championship in Indy of all places (I know they're swimming venue rocks, perhaps IUPUI is a Big East member in swimming/diving?, they're weren't one of the 2 teams astericked on seton Hall's schedule as conference matches)

Anyhoo the point, is that there is obviously some attempt w/n the conference to mimize travel among non revenue sports. I don't know how much that limits the inclusion of Creighton or not, but its something that can't be dismissed quite as easily as some message board posters would like. Its ture that the brunt of the travel would be place on Creighton, but I doubt the AD at Seton Hall relishes sending his baseball team to omaha, then having them board a plane for Indy for a weekend set (assuming both play baseball). Perhaps its something he's willing to do to help the bread and butter Basketball program, but it is a concession worth considering.

At any rate, I'll stick by my belief that we'll start getting more and more leaks the closer we get to the NCAA tournament and that offical announcements will be made final 4 weekend at the peak of college basketball. I'm of the belief that 95% of everything important has already been ironed out for some time now.
You are correct in that they try to minimize travel. Soccer does it and I am sure other sports do it too. I do not know exactly how they set up the schedule, but they have an Blue division and a Red division.

In the blue: Georgetown, Connecticut, Notre Dame, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence and Pittsburgh.

In the Red: Louisville, Syracuse, St. John's, Villanova, Cincinnati, Rutgers, South Florida and DePaul.

These schools definitely find a way to minimize travel in the olympic sports. That said, it is much harder to do in a 10 team conference when you really only have one outlier. For that reason I think Creighton is somewhat of a concern, though perhaps not a huge one.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:10 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by ace93 View Post
You are correct in that they try to minimize travel. Soccer does it and I am sure other sports do it too. I do not know exactly how they set up the schedule, but they have an Blue division and a Red division.

In the blue: Georgetown, Connecticut, Notre Dame, Marquette, Seton Hall, Providence and Pittsburgh.

In the Red: Louisville, Syracuse, St. John's, Villanova, Cincinnati, Rutgers, South Florida and DePaul.

These schools definitely find a way to minimize travel in the olympic sports. That said, it is much harder to do in a 10 team conference when you really only have one outlier. For that reason I think Creighton is somewhat of a concern, though perhaps not a huge one.
Exactly. The current and future C7 members all have the same approach to managing their AD's budget. They spend as much as they can on men's basketball and are as conservative as possible for other sports. They have to keep air travel to a minimum for other sports with the exception of women's basketball where they really don't have a choice since they have to do a full round-robin schedule. None of the C7 generate enough revenue to do otherwise and as private schools they are not nearly as free to fund the AD through enormous student fees dedicated to athletics. I still think that Creighton ends up in the C7, but I really wouldn't be surprised if there is some opposition to them from schools like Seton Hall because of the travel issue.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:28 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
An interesting sub-plot to The Big Story will be the shift in the balance of power in the city of Richmond if the Spiders do get the 12th invitation to the new C7 conference.

If the University of Richmond starts getting $4,000,000 per year and the Spidersí games on national TV on a regular basis, and VCU starts getting $150,000 per year while their Rams disappear from our TV screens, a shift in the balance of power is inevitable.
If this scenario became true, sure we'd probably see UR on TV more, but VCU will still be Richmond's team for the foreseeable future.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:49 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
He seemed to have more concrete information than Iíve seen anywhere else on the topic.
Muddy, I know you've never let reason or reality get in the way of your opinion you usually present as fact, but you call this author and article to have the most concrete information of anyone?

You do know the author actually suggests in a serious manner that Siena could be an addition to the BE7+Xavier/Butler conference? That Detroit Mercy could be actually invited to the BE7+Xavier/Butler conference? That Creighton just simply isn't in the mix due to location.

But heck, as long as this guy says UD appears to be a lock, he has reigning authority on this matter. After all, he's the journalist with connections at the TV exec and Presidential level, while other journalists only have connections at the AD level.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:05 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by xavierhoops View Post
Muddy, I know you've never let reason or reality get in the way of your opinion you usually present as fact, but you call this author and article to have the most concrete information of anyone?

You do know the author actually suggests in a serious manner that Siena could be an addition to the BE7+Xavier/Butler conference? That Detroit Mercy could be actually invited to the BE7+Xavier/Butler conference? That Creighton just simply isn't in the mix due to location.

But heck, as long as this guy says UD appears to be a lock, he has reigning authority on this matter. After all, he's the journalist with connections at the TV exec and Presidential level, while other journalists only have connections at the AD level.
In Muddled's mind, Dayton actually is going to have to decide between the B7, the ACC and the B1G, who all are secretly putting a package together as they prepare to enter Dayton on their knees to plead with Dayton to join their conferences.

In the reality we all know, based on the vast majority of what has been written on the topic of B7 addition candidates:

1. The most desired programs are Xavier and Butler.

2. Were the new conference to launch at 10 initially, most of what's been written puts the additions at X, Butler and SLU or Creighton.

3. Dayton only truly makes the cut if the new conference launches at 12, and even then there are scenarios that have the 5 comprised of X, BU, SLU, Richmond and Creighton.

4. Numerous fan responses on B7 boards don't cast Dayton in a loving light, to be polite about it.

Wuddy Maters can attempt to recast this process in his twisted mind as much as he likes, but there simply is way too much written information out there for it to not be clear that, assuming Dayton makes the cut, it does so coming from low in the pecking order. Filler.
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