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Old 02-19-2013, 10:35 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by Muddy Waters View Post
An interesting sub-plot to The Big Story will be the shift in the balance of power in the city of Richmond if the Spiders do get the 12th invitation to the new C7 conference.

If the University of Richmond starts getting $4,000,000 per year and the Spiders’ games on national TV on a regular basis, and VCU starts getting $150,000 per year while their Rams disappear from our TV screens, a shift in the balance of power is inevitable.




Muddy, you're a troll but this post gives you favored status among trolls for me.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:44 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?


Even with Home Court Advantage, Siena to the 'Catholic 7' Seems Like a Long Shot (All Over Albany - February 19, 2013)

Surprising bit from a recent John Feinstein report in the Washington Post about plans for the new college basketball conference being formed by the seven Catholic schools exiting the crumbling Big East: Siena is in the conversation for the new conference. From the article:
The conference leaders want six eastern and six western -- really, midwestern -- schools.

The eastern division of the league will consist of Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond (also a non-Catholic school) or Siena -- a late entry but a potentially appealing one because it's a Catholic school that (more importantly) plays in a 15,500-seat arena in Albany, N.Y.
Being picked for your gym probably isn't the reason most schools had hoped would draw suitors -- though, hey, if you got it, flaunt it.

Also: it's nice to be considered.

But Siena's athletic director has already poured cold water on the speculation.

And that's not surprising, because the move would be a stretch for a few reasons...

The first and foremost reason, as it with most big-time college sports: money.

A move to the Big Catholic (or whatever it ends being called) would probably mean a big jump in the amount of money Siena would have to spend on athletics. Siena spent about $12 million on all its teams during the last reported year -- about $2.3 million of that on basketball.

Here's how its spending compares with the other schools that are said to be sure bets for the new conference:

Code:
                           Total         Men's 
                          Athletic     Basketball
No. School                Spending     Spending  

'Catholic 7' average:   $22,628,955    $6,229,612
 
 1. Butler              $14,738,745    $3,924,026 
 2. Dayton              $20,790,628    $3,978,866 
 3. DePaul              $24,212,027    $6,657,771 
 4. Georgetown          $25,681,992   $10,015,207  
 5. Marquette           $26,504,896    $9,941,583 
 6. Providence          $22,550,248    $6,110,824 
 7. Seton Hall          $20,886,250    $6,401,383
    Siena               $12,229,041    $2,293,234
 8. St. John's          $33,644,628    $7,289,171 
 9. St. Louis           $14,200,727    $3,101,169 
10. Villanova           $30,934,099    $6,398,678 
11. Xavier              $14,774,269    $4,707,053
 
Source: US Department of Education 

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx
But it's not just for basketball -- the travel costs of all the other school's teams would probably also increase because the geographic footprint of the new conference would be much larger than Siena's current conference, the MAAC.

Travel costs are a real consideration -- Feinstein reports Creighton, which has a strong basketball program, isn't being considered because it would stretch the conference too far.

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Old 02-19-2013, 06:47 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Quote:
A Marquette official said Tuesday night that major portions of a Washington Post story about a new league with two divisions of six teams each wasn't true.

According to the story, the East division would be Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond or Siena. The West or Midwest division would be Marquette, DePaul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton and Butler.

Marquette doesn't see Richmond or Siena as part of its new league.

It was also reported that Georgetown President John J. DeGioia is the person "who has been charged with piecing together the new league" because the six other Catholic 7 presidents are interested in the process.

Marquette disputed that, too.
If the Golden Eagles source is to be trusted and doesn't consider Richmond to be a part of the league, that opens up door #12 to Creighton or VCU again.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/191910991.html
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Z8's Top 6 (with reasons why):

1. Northeastern. Top CAA basketball program. Provides and maintains the Boston market once UMass leaves for football. Academic prestige. Plus, joining this league will bring a lot more fans into the Historic Matthews Arena (oldest in the country). Not to mention, Bill Coen will be a top 3 coach in the A-10.

2. Wichita State. Not much more to say. Provides us with the midwest market once STL, X, and Butler leave.

3. Jacksonville. This is a program down in the dumps, but did you know that they have a 15,000 seat arena? The A-10 will give them a much needed recruiting boost, and given it's location in a hotbed of basketball talent, within a few years they could be a quality program. Not to mention it gives the A-10 the Florida marktet, in another metropolitan area. For those who consider Siena a quality option, look here, this is even better. And they jump at the chance to join the A-10.

4. Belmont. Another cog in the midwest market, giving us the Nashville metropolitan area. Program on the rise. Good fan support.

5. Bucknell. Bball team on the rise. Great fan support. Academic prestige. Not a good market though...

6. Iona. Same as Bucknell.

I am assuming that five schools leave the A-10, those being STL, Butler, X, Dayton, and Richmond. To replace those 5, I would pick my top 5 from that list. We will also lose Charlotte and Temple, so we would be left with 14 after that. I am also a firm believer that the A-10 should be 10 teams. I would also like to keep those 5. The necessary cuts would be Fordham, St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and La Salle.

That would leave us with a basketball conference consisting of:

UMass
URI
VCU
George Washington
St. Joseph's
Northeastern
Wichita State
Jacksonville
Belmont
Bucknell

That conference gives us quality basketball, academic prestige, and fan support. All equaling more money. Idk about you, but I think that sounds real good.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:22 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Two things, Bucknell will never leave the Patriot League and Iona has no academic prestige (you said "same s Bucknell" next to them).
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:30 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by z8-Minutemen View Post
Z8's Top 6 (with reasons why):

1. Northeastern. Top CAA basketball program. Provides and maintains the Boston market once UMass leaves for football. Academic prestige. Plus, joining this league will bring a lot more fans into the Historic Matthews Arena (oldest in the country). Not to mention, Bill Coen will be a top 3 coach in the A-10.

2. Wichita State. Not much more to say. Provides us with the midwest market once STL, X, and Butler leave.

3. Jacksonville. This is a program down in the dumps, but did you know that they have a 15,000 seat arena? The A-10 will give them a much needed recruiting boost, and given it's location in a hotbed of basketball talent, within a few years they could be a quality program. Not to mention it gives the A-10 the Florida marktet, in another metropolitan area. For those who consider Siena a quality option, look here, this is even better. And they jump at the chance to join the A-10.

4. Belmont. Another cog in the midwest market, giving us the Nashville metropolitan area. Program on the rise. Good fan support.

5. Bucknell. Bball team on the rise. Great fan support. Academic prestige. Not a good market though...

6. Iona. Same as Bucknell.

I am assuming that five schools leave the A-10, those being STL, Butler, X, Dayton, and Richmond. To replace those 5, I would pick my top 5 from that list. We will also lose Charlotte and Temple, so we would be left with 14 after that. I am also a firm believer that the A-10 should be 10 teams. I would also like to keep those 5. The necessary cuts would be Fordham, St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, and La Salle.

That would leave us with a basketball conference consisting of:

UMass
URI
VCU
George Washington
St. Joseph's
Northeastern
Wichita State
Jacksonville
Belmont
Bucknell

That conference gives us quality basketball, academic prestige, and fan support. All equaling more money. Idk about you, but I think that sounds real good.
That is some kind of deranged conference you've dreamed up. I'm sure Wichita State would just be salivating to be a piece of flotsam in that sea of detritus.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:44 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

bprichard,

Thanks for quoting that z8 post. He's on my ignore list and if you hadn't quoted him, I would have missed out on the most idiotic post in the history of this board. What a LUNATIC.

Thanks again.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by BmoreX View Post
If the Golden Eagles source is to be trusted and doesn't consider Richmond to be a part of the league, that opens up door #12 to Creighton or VCU again.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/191910991.html
Interestingly, they've now edited that article to replace "Richmond" with "Detroit".
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:50 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by bprichard View Post
That is some kind of deranged conference you've dreamed up. I'm sure Wichita State would just be salivating to be a piece of flotsam in that sea of detritus.
Explain how that conference is deranged? and how Wichita state would not want to join it?

UMass- rich history, academics. Status: On the rise.
URI- good fanbase. Status: Recovering, on the rise.
VCU- quality basketball, great fanbase. Status: elite.
GW: academics, potential for large fanbase with success. Status: on the rise.
St. Joseph's: rich history, potential for large fanbase with success. Status: mediocre. new coach will do wonders.
Northeastern: academics, potential for large fanbase with success. Status: on the rise
Wichita state: quality basketball, large fanbase. Status: elite.
Jacksonville: potential for large fanbase with success. Status: potential.
Belmont: quality basketball, potential for larger fanbase with more success. Status: good.
Bucknell: academics, quality basketball, potential for larger fanbase with more success. Status: good.

That league would give us markets in 7 different metropolitan areas. Those being Boston, Nashville, Jacksonville, Philly, Richmond, DC, and Wichita. That's good geography.

All of those teams besides UMass, Northeastern, and Jacksonville have had a stretch of great basketball success at some point in the last decade.

How could Wichita State want to be in a Creighton-less MVC instead of a league with VCU, Belmont, Bucknell, and UMass???

Also, if it's deranged because you're not used to most of those teams, then you need a grip. There's nothing deranged about cutting Fordham, Duquesne, Bona, and La Salle, all of which are the deadweight that has held this conference back and will continue to do so.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:44 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

UMass - They are on the way out sooner than later due to football.

No issues with the other A10 schools, obviously.

Northeastern - Being in Boston is not all that meaningful, as they don't have that strong of a following (average attendance a little over 1,300 per game for 2012). They are not a consistently high performing team in the CAA. They were not a consistently high performing team in America East. They are having a hell of a season, but the CAA is dog food this year. That being said, they're not a bad choice. They seem to have a good commitment to their athletics, and being in Boston is something. Still I'd rather have La Salle or the Bonnies.

Wichita State - Great program, terrible institutional fit, terrible geographic fit. And there is no way they'd leave the MVC for the mess you created even without Creighton. Baseball is also extremely important for them, and they're not going to want to play these teams.

Jacksonville - You must be joking. Jacksonville has zero recent success and no track record of fan support (1,750 per game in 2012, hey I guess that's better than Northeastern). Artis Gilmore is not walking through that door. If you're raiding the Atlantic Sun, you might not be creating the world's greatest conference.

Belmont - They're a likable enough choice. Pretending that they're ever going to be a major player even in their local market is hilarious. But they're a good program in their small pond. Are they going to spend with these other teams? No chance.

Bucknell - Delusional. No chance they are leaving the Patriot League. They also like to keep their basketball budget small.

So what you have in your truly deranged scenario are a bunch of teams, some of whom would not want to join the conference, some of whom would never be asked to join the conference. Even assuming it somehow defied all logic and came together, it's a logistical nightmare due to Jacksonville and Wichita State. I fully expect Jacksonville's athletics department to go bankrupt from the travel costs within a year or two. And is this conference appealing to television? Nope! It's substantially less appealing than the current A10 (can't wait to tune in for that Jacksonville - Northeastern tilt, although it's perfect for the Ocho), meaning an even smaller television contract than the current A10's. And UMass is inevitably leaving.

In all earnestness, this is the absolute worst hypothetical conference proposal I've ever seen, although it is the most z8-minuteman proposal I can imagine. A delightful combination of illogic, wishful thinking, delusion and LSD. I think I'd be happy to take George Mason, Iona, Siena and others to form a geographically compact basketball conference rather than the deranged nonsense you propose.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:00 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bprichard on February 17, 2013 View Post

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...06b_story.html

"In all likelihood, four schools are virtual locks to be invited: Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler."

"The conference leaders want six eastern and six western — really, midwestern — schools."

"The eastern division of the league will consist of Georgetown, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond (also a non-Catholic school) or Siena ..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BmoreX View Post

Quote:
A Marquette official said Tuesday night that major portions of a Washington Post story about a new league with two divisions of six teams each wasn't true.

According to the story, the East division would be Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond or Siena.

The West or Midwest division would be Marquette, DePaul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton, and Butler.

Marquette doesn't see Richmond or Siena as part of its new league.

It was also reported that Georgetown President John J. DeGioia is the person "who has been charged with piecing together the new league" because the six other Catholic 7 presidents are interested in the process.

Marquette disputed that, too.
If the Golden Eagles source is to be trusted and doesn't consider Richmond to be a part of the league, that opens up door #12 to Creighton or VCU again.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/191910991.html
The writer of the jsonline.com article (Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel) got two words wrong on his first attempt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFspidur View Post

Interestingly, they've now edited that article to replace "Richmond" with "Detroit".

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/191910991.html

Quote:
A Marquette official said Tuesday night that major portions of a Washington Post story about a new league with two divisions of six teams each wasn't true.

According to the story, the East division would be Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and either Richmond or Siena.

The West or Midwest division would be Marquette, DePaul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton, and Butler.

Marquette doesn't see Detroit or Siena as part of its new league.

It was also reported that Georgetown President John J. DeGioia is the person "who has been charged with piecing together the new league" because the six other Catholic 7 presidents are disinterested in the process.

Marquette disputed that, too.
Muddy’s Observations:

(1) The Marquette official quoted in Michael Hunt’s edited article:
• did not dispute John Feinstein’s claim that the new C7 conference would have 12 schools.

• did not dispute Feinstein’s claim that the new C7 conference would have 6-team East and West Divisions.

• did not dispute Feinstein’s claim that 11 of 12 schools have already been decided.

• did not dispute Feinstein’s claim that "four schools are virtual locks to be invited: Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler."

• did not dispute that Richmond is the only school named by John Feinstein that is still in the running for the 12th spot in the new C7 conference.

• did not dispute Feinstein’s claim that both Creighton and VCU are no longer candidates for the 12th spot in the new C7 conference.
(2) This, in turn, confirms two previous posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Waters on February 18, 2013 – Post # 68 View Post

BTW, all of the discussions that the Catholic 7 schools have had with the various TV networks have apparently been based on the assumption of 11 specified schools (including Dayton, Xavier, Saint Louis, and Butler) and a 12th yet-to-be-specified school to be added to the East Division.

If any fewer than 11 schools were specified, the various TV networks would not be able to carry out the TV market analyses and related financial calculations concerning their anticipated rate of return on their potential investment for the TV rights to the new Catholic 7 conference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medford on February 19, 2013 – Post # 114 View Post

I'm of the belief that 95% of everything important has already been ironed out for some time now.
(3) And dumps a bucket of cold water on two other previous posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by xavierhoops on February 19, 2013 – Post # 119 View Post

Dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xudash on February 19, 2013 – Post # 120 View Post

Dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross, dross.
. . . earning both xavierhoops and xudash a well-deserved place on 'Muddy’s Ignore List'. Have a seat on the bench next to A10fan2 and MudFlap.

(4) Unless and until information to the contrary is published by a very credible source, John Feinstein’s assertions concerning the new C7 conference still stand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonspider on October 7, 2011 View Post


Last edited by Muddy Waters; 02-20-2013 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #132 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

Guys, back off. Jacksonville had that monster upset of (NIT) #1 seed Arizona State in 2010. They are a sleeping giant!
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:27 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

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Originally Posted by Bill Russell View Post
bprichard,

.......I would have missed out on the most idiotic post in the history of this board.
... except for anything thta Muddy posts - but yes, he is definitely in second place.....
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:07 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

The best option, 10 teams:
Butler
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
St. Louis
Villanova
Xavier

...beginning to water it down:
Creighton
Dayton
Richmond

...really watering it down:
Detroit
Sienna
Loyola (Chi)
Loyola (Md)
Northeastern
St. Joseph's
LaSalle
Duquesne
VCU (due to academic standards)
Davidson
George Mason
Valparaiso
Bradley

Those are the schools I've seen mentioned on this board.

I think if the A-10 loses 4 or 5, these are the schools on the radar:
Belmont, Detroit, Loyola-Chicago, Northeastern, Sienna, Davidson, George Mason, Quinnipiac, Evansville
They are not going to Wichita.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:11 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Re: C-7 to be 12 to 14 teams?

With the exception of Detroit and Siena, of all the other schools mentioned for membership in the new conference the most ironic one is Seton Hall. But for the fact that their vote gave the catholic schools a majority vote in the BE, they wouldn't make the cut in a new conference. While St. Johns, DePaul and Providence haven't been the picture of recent success, they do represent attractive markets from a tv perspective. Seton Hall duplicates St' John's market and doesn't have their national recognition nor tie-in to the Garden. Nevertheless, Seton Hall is in and I would expect the final makeup to be what Feinstein posted with Richmond being the 12th team rather than VCU because of their private status.
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