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Old 07-02-2014, 11:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
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OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

Looks like the 2011 investigation is being re-opened on charges of academic fraud. If they are found to be breaking rules, no school since SMU deserves the NCAA Death Penalty more. The chances of this happening are about the same as an A-10 tournament in St. Louis. The gutless wonders that make up the NCAA are really good at punishing small schools, but cower to the big ones. The University of Miami ran a professional football team for 30 years...no meaningful sanctions. Tennessee had pervasive cheating and fraud...nothing there either.

We all know the Jerry Tarkanian quote by now, and Tark was 100% right. The NCAA has created a culture where cheating is not only allowed, but encouraged if you're a big state school. The "He Who Shall Not Be Named" scandal at St. Bonaventure would have probably gotten Syracuse...nothing.

This time, the NCAA should really make a statement...kick out UNC-Cheating Hill as a member permanently. Take a stand against a rogue member that has flaunted the system for decades. The other option is to admit they don't care what goes on and make college athletics a full-fledged free-for-all.

Reopening the investigation is a start, but until the NCAA comes down with meaningful sanctions on a state school; it won't matter.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

I don't disagree with you, but you mention that they encourage big state schools, but then use Miami (as a school who got away with it) and Syracuse (as a school that would have gotten away with it), yet they are both private.

Miami is about the same size as SLU and Fordham, btw.
School Overall Enrollment - Undergrad
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

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I don't disagree with you, but you mention that they encourage big state schools, but then use Miami (as a school who got away with it) and Syracuse (as a school that would have gotten away with it), yet they are both private.

Miami is about the same size as SLU and Fordham, btw.
School Overall Enrollment - Undergrad
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St. Louis 13,505 - 8,867
Fordham 15,189 - 8,427
Miami 15,657 - 10,368
Point taken. At some point the NCAA needs to take a stand. I used Syracuse as being close to St. Bonaventure. You could easily sub in Ohio State or someone like that. The fact that State Penn still has an athletic department is a disgrace.
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

let me assist...
please insert "FBS Power Conference School" where ever you see the words "Big State School"

otherwise agree 103%
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

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Point taken. At some point the NCAA needs to take a stand. I used Syracuse as being close to St. Bonaventure. You could easily sub in Ohio State or someone like that. The fact that State Penn still has an athletic department is a disgrace.
While I agree with your original post, the ncaa had no standing in the PSU case. But a runaway media, made for a great show for the ncaa to be a player.

So lets see the cash cows at the ncaa/money-managers, take away all those ncaa championships and wins for their bball program having used bogus athlete-students. A lot of schools are just "playing games" with playing games.

At this point, I would like to see what would happen if we just forget the charade, pay them, let them negotiate their salaries/benefits, and then see what the schools & ncaa have done to college athletics.

Doesn't a lot of what they have done seems to mimic with our elected officials/government has done. No enforcement of rules/laws, then you reap what you sow. You just look the other way.

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Old 07-02-2014, 11:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

I don't think think the death penalty is an appropriate penalty regardless of the crime committed by an NCAA school. By the time the investigation has been launched and the punishment has been handed out you aren't even punishing the perpetrators anymore. Sure maybe the coaches, but at the end of the day they still get paid while players who weren't around when the scandal occurred get punished.

My personal stance is that I don't care if the players do or don't go to class, they are majoring in football/basketball.
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Old 07-02-2014, 11:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

The reason why the little guys get slammed is because they don't bring in the dough like the Big Boys do.

It's why, as EFG notes, what happened at Bona's back in the day would have gotten Boeheim and Co. nothing, save perhaps a "c'mon, man."

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Old 07-03-2014, 04:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

I am not sure what the end game is for the NCAA here.... They must be ready to bring the pain to Chatanooga for this!
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

The "power" schools get away with it because they have money to hire the best compliance people. Coaches who are dumb enough to get caught are usually weeded out before they would get high paying jobs. The boosters are all well versed in how to do things under the table.

The NCAA has no subpoena power, therefore they need willing whistleblowers or an obvious paper trail.

Tat-gate at OSU only came to light because of the feds investigating drug trafficking at the tattoo shop. It only became an issue beyond a few player suspensions because Tressel overlooked some evidence that players may have sold helmets and jerseys to some bad guys, and he did so because he knew there was almost nothing the NCAA could do to bring that to light. He couldn't have foreseen the fed investigation going as deep as it did.

I can say this with 100% confidence...your school, yes YOUR school, could be turned in for something today that would bring probation and cost a job or two. It happens at every school. Maybe not fake classes, but someone is getting $100 handshakes from a booster or even a coach. Someone's momma is suddenly getting money to buy a better car or cover the rent/mortgage for a few months. I wouldn't be casting stones at UNC. Let the NCAA do their thing, and you should want there to be factual proof, because there is anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all over everyone.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

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Originally Posted by AdamtheFlyer View Post
The "power" schools get away with it because they have money to hire the best compliance people. Coaches who are dumb enough to get caught are usually weeded out before they would get high paying jobs. The boosters are all well versed in how to do things under the table.

The NCAA has no subpoena power, therefore they need willing whistleblowers or an obvious paper trail.

Tat-gate at OSU only came to light because of the feds investigating drug trafficking at the tattoo shop. It only became an issue beyond a few player suspensions because Tressel overlooked some evidence that players may have sold helmets and jerseys to some bad guys, and he did so because he knew there was almost nothing the NCAA could do to bring that to light. He couldn't have foreseen the fed investigation going as deep as it did.

I can say this with 100% confidence...your school, yes YOUR school, could be turned in for something today that would bring probation and cost a job or two. It happens at every school. Maybe not fake classes, but someone is getting $100 handshakes from a booster or even a coach. Someone's momma is suddenly getting money to buy a better car or cover the rent/mortgage for a few months. I wouldn't be casting stones at UNC. Let the NCAA do their thing, and you should want there to be factual proof, because there is anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all over everyone.

I am at the point where I don't care anymore. If SLU is violating rules to that extent, they should get the same treatment. Probation isn't the answer anymore; instant death is. I would feel better if the NCAA disbanded and said that there were no more rules as compared to the farcical enforcement of whatever rules there are.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:40 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

I really don't have a big issue with it yet. There isn't any substantial facts built against UNC or that Roy Williams is involved. McCants is legitimately begging for attention, like he did when he played at UNC. His idea that sports should be a major is completely asinine and they should get paid accordingly for their services to the school. You should take a look at his proposal it's actually ridiculous. I have yet to understand why college athletes should get paid when you're supposed to be going for the education. However, I do like a number of Northwestern's labor union ideas which are good ones. I also like UNC and Roy Williams so it may make me a little biased. To me I never thought Roy Williams was the cheating type in my eyes nor would he let players slide by. Every school has players on the team that are simply disinterested in school and thats their own fault not the NCAA. I really don't know what the NCAA can do about it and I don't see a simply solution for it. Clearly, there are schools the NCAA can watch more closely and can make examples of but I don't see UNC as one of them. However to act as though professors don't offer additional help and maybe cut them a little bit of slack is just naive. It happens everywhere. McCant is just trying to get attention putting UNC on the spot and even says that Manziel got screwed by the NCAA....the guy is a complete moron.

It may just be me but I think the SEC schools and the Big 12 are the schools that get away a little bit because they have more leverage and are even larger institutions that don't have the prestige academics at institutions such as UNC, Duke or UVA. They have two sports that are generating enormous amounts of money so the NCAA isn't going to come down on them as opposed to many schools on the ACC where only basketball is their very competitive sport. Just to use an example, Ohio State has been known for cheating and little to nothing has been done. Many coaches especially in the SEC have been brought down for essentially cheating. I just don't see many programs in the ACC who are willing going to let kids slide by without going to class or trying to receive an education.

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Old 07-03-2014, 09:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

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I don't think think the death penalty is an appropriate penalty regardless of the crime committed by an NCAA school. By the time the investigation has been launched and the punishment has been handed out you aren't even punishing the perpetrators anymore. Sure maybe the coaches, but at the end of the day they still get paid while players who weren't around when the scandal occurred get punished.

My personal stance is that I don't care if the players do or don't go to class, they are majoring in football/basketball.
When the Live TV ban went away soon after SMU, the death penalty was about all the NCAA has left. Scholarship reductions? Yeah, they work if it was half or more of their allotment. If a school has put themselves in a position for the repeat violator statute to kick in...I don't think you take into account who is there or not there when it happens.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

Took a while to dig this one up..

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/s...eels-athletics

We could only hope. I'm expecting a wrist slap if they ever get off their ass and actually go after them.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

Re: Bona scandal vs Syracuse scandal...

St. Bonaventure:
1 ineligible player in one season (academics)
Lack of Institutional Control

SCHOOL RESPONSE:
1 post-season ban (self-imposed)
Fired Head Coach, AD, President

NCAA PENALTIES:
1 post-season ban (accepted the self-imposed season)
3 years probation
3 years of recruiting limitations
9 scholarship years lost (3 each for 3 years)


Syracuse:
10 violations of academic misconduct, extra benefits, ineligible players (lying about failed drug tests) over 10 years.
Lack of institutional control

SCHOOL RESPONSE
1 post-season ban (self-imposed; and announced after a 3-game losing streak dropped their record to 12-7).

NCAA PENALTIES:
1 post-season ban (accepted the self-imposed season)
5 years probation
Suspension of coach for 9 conference games
2 years of recruiting limitations
5 scholarship years lost (Originally 12, but reduced). Three scholarships per year were later reduced to two per year for the four years; and the 3 scholarships open at the time of the infraction were allowed to count towards the total.

Syracuse then ran off two “end of the bench” freshmen and went recruiting.
St. Bonaventure lost Mike Gansey (West Virginia) and Dan Cage (Vanderbilt).
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: OT: Reopening the Mess at UNC

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Originally Posted by BrownIndians85 View Post
Took a while to dig this one up..

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/s...eels-athletics

We could only hope. I'm expecting a wrist slap if they ever get off their ass and actually go after them.
I live in the Triangle. The ability of essentially everyone associated, even remotely, with UNC to pretend like this is nothing is unbearably galling. Trym mentioning it to a Tarheel and the closest thing you get to an acknowledgment of the sewer that is UNC athletics is "it was a couple of rogue people who have been terminated".
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