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Old 02-10-2016, 07:08 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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Originally Posted by Wisco View Post
Nothing fires up the Marquette board like a good ol' conference realignment discussion. Especially when it involves bush league mid-major programs such as Dayton and VCU.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50590.0
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The hatred is ridiculous. I was a Marquette fan long before I attended VCU (why I still read the boards) but the fan base has a massively inflated view of the program.
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Originally Posted by Flyer75 View Post

I read a lot of their message boards...the BE that is. I get all the fans love the round robin 10 team lineup. I would too...it makes sense; FROM A FAN PERSPECTIVE. It's perfect, no doubt. But that may not be what the AD's, Presidents, schools are thinking at the same time.

after reading even further, their fan base is so wrong on so many of their Dayton "facts" I wouldn't even know where to start.
Reading Holy Land, the two biggest opponents of Big East expansion are Marquette & Xavier fans. And that’s freaking crazy.

EVERYONE over there is looking at it like they’re a conference that just lost a powerful member. And unless you’re Gonzaga on the East Coast, you’re not good enough (Unless you’re Dayton, who literally is better than Gonzaga the last few years, and then you’re still not good enough).

But the problem of the Big East is that they have EIGHT PROGRAMS from 2-9 that are so ridiculously similar. But the Big East is guaranteed to go 90-90, and Villanova’s at 15-3 so those eight teams are guaranteed to lose 72 times.

They can’t all have winning Big East records, so three teams are 6-12 or worse in conference and are screwed out of NCAA bids.

Basically, they are ALL middle teams and have no bottom.

Butler CONF: 0-4 vs Top 35, 1-2 vs 36-110, 4-0 vs 121+ —>>> fall from 36 RPI to the 60s.
Bona CONF: 0-1 vs Top 35, 2-2 vs 36-110, 6-0 vs 110+ —>>> rise from 84 RPI to the Top 40

The Top 8 of the A-10 is 59-27 in A-10 play, because we have SIX OTHER TEAMS to beat.
The Top 8 of the Big East is 58-38 games. 11 more losses because they only have TWO OTHER TEAMS to beat.

Marquette has been the BIGGEST VICTIM of the double-round robin format. They had no problem making NCAAs in old C-USA when they had Tulane, East Carolina, Southern Miss and Houston to beat the crap out of (and neither did DePaul). That league was 40% good, 30% decent, 30% terrible.

The new Big East is 80% good, 20% decent, 0% terrible.



And Xavier should be trumpeting Dayton, because they’ve OWNED Dayton for 30 years (Sorry, UD fans, but you’re what? 12–38 against them in your last 50. I totally guestimated that stat, but the point is). Dayton beats EVERYONE outside of conference play, BCS teams, NCAA Tournament teams. But the one thing they can’t do is win in Cincinnati against Xavier.

If the Big East expanded, Xavier’s gonna see their games against the Eastern Five Big East teams dip by 2 or 3 per year to accommodate UD and another member (or ideally, THREE). Xavier is 12-14 against them since joining the Big East. They’d be a game or two better in the Big East standings EVERY YEAR. And Dayton would knock off teams around them. They’d be the second best team in the Big East BAR NONE with Dayton in the conference.


The only team who should be against Big East expansion is Villanova.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:12 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

I honestly believe they all get what you are saying jp...it makes too much sense not to believe it.

But the members of the BE feel they are in some entitled club (I mean the fans). Maybe they are. But that is certainly the vibe you get when you read HLH. I'm fairly certain, especially the Marq and X fans, wouldn't be so against expansion if they knew Dayton would still get left out. For whatever the reason (and there isn't a logical one for X as you pointed out) they don't want Dayton in...no matter how much that improves things, even if only by a little for their conference. Part of me as a fan wants no part of that mentality....the other part, the brain side says otherwise; not because I hate the po'dunk A10 but because if Providence was ranked 10 at some point this year, then I have to think Dayton would be too, seeding bias, $$$, ect. But as long as Dayton is doing what they are doing I'm perfectly content.

It's been 20+ years since Dayton was an anchor on the league. Not even under OP or Gregory did Dayton ever experience basketball suckage. We always brought a solid RPI to the conference and then could be counted on to help everyone else make the dance. Who wouldn't want that???
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Old 02-10-2016, 09:02 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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I'm fairly certain, especially the Marq and X fans, wouldn't be so against expansion if they knew Dayton would still get left out. For whatever the reason (and there isn't a logical one for X as you pointed out) they don't want Dayton in...no matter how much that improves things, even if only by a little for their conference. Part of me as a fan wants no part of that mentality...
It both maddens me and and makes me giggle. Val Ackerman is a very stupid person when it comes to basketball administration.

They think because they both have 10 teams, they're the Big XII, and all Kansas Oklahoma, etc. But they really have nine Kansas States.

If they wanted to be a big time player, they could send EIGHT or NINE to the dance every year if they added Bonaventure, Duquesne, and Richmond.

And I'm totally on the fence with it as well. I think the long-term future is better for the Big East, in terms of an individual school's financials and security. But at the same time, I fully get that winning an easier league is far easier than fighting to the death with 12 teams identical to one another. Bonaventure is a bubble team with a thin resume in the A-10. If we had to play 14 games against those top 9 Big East teams, we'd be 6-12 instead of 12-6.

However, what terrifies me is the trend going from BAD in the favor of BCS teams to DEPLORABLY WORSE. When Palm & Lunardi -- who were wrong on UCLA and the six other terrible NCAA selections last year -- have UCLA, Clemson, etc in the field NOW before the committee makes their reaches, I'm freaking terrified we're gonna get Dayton only. These are a group of people who think that Monmouth's resume is an 11-seed!

I just feel we're going to keep getting boned until no one wants to play anywhere but the top six conferences. And even though we're the 6.5 rated conference (I don't care what anyone says, we're BETTER than the SEC), we're gonna get phased out until we're WCC status.
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Old 02-11-2016, 05:44 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

Simple Google search of Marquette Xavier fans turns up this diatribe regarding the A10 from one of our former members. Seems appropriate for this discussion regarding conferences & their perception of our league.

You can start at page 1 if you like but the 'love' for their time in the A10 really starts on page 4....to paraphrase Snipe...Smell the Love

Just gonna leave this here. I'm selling popcorn for $1 a bag.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthrea...tte-Fans/page4
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:11 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

The long term plan is for the P5 to go their own way. Unless the BE starts performing like a major conference in the tournament, they're going to be at risk as well. Major conferences make Final Fours on a regular basis. The BE has performed at an A10 level in March since the split. The pressure is really on Villanova to make a deep run. The coaches at the P5 schools are already degrading the BE as glorified mid major (which structurally, they are), and lack of success in March reinforces the narrative. Eventually, this will impact recruiting.
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:51 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

I'm not sure I understand the love for the round robin format. Personally, I liked the A10 better when it was a 12 team, divisional setup. For instance, depending on what happens over the next couple of games, the UD v Bona game in few weeks could be a battle for 1st in the "west division" and a top seed line. The game b/w Bona & Duquesne might be a battle for the 2 seed if Bona losses @ UD, or it might be a chance for Bona to lock up the 1 or 2 seed if they won at UD (depending on how UD fairs @ Rhody and St Joes). Just seems like there is more excitement added to more games when your competing in divisions.

From Marquette's perspective, I'm sure its great knowing that Nova and Georgetown (I guess) are going to show up every season, but does anyone get all that excited for Seton Hall or St John's? There has long been a hatred from Marquette (message board fans) towards UD; I have no idea why. We used to be rivals of sort, but that has been a long time. The last 2 images I have of Marquette vs UD involve DJ Stelly blocking Dewayne Wade's shot to seal off a win at UD and Chris Wright's nut sack scraping the head of some poor Marquette player's head as he soared over him for a dunk. In other words, I'm most indifferent about the school and program, I'm not sure why they would be any different.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:07 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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Originally Posted by ChrisSFlyer View Post
Simple Google search of Marquette Xavier fans turns up this diatribe regarding the A10 from one of our former members. Seems appropriate for this discussion regarding conferences & their perception of our league.

You can start at page 1 if you like but the 'love' for their time in the A10 really starts on page 4....to paraphrase Snipe...Smell the Love

Just gonna leave this here. I'm selling popcorn for $1 a bag.

http://www.xavierhoops.com/showthrea...tte-Fans/page4
MasterofReality needs a reality check. Good stuff
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:24 AM   #113 (permalink)
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They've chosen to use Duquesne and Fordham as the two primary examples of programs that have not improved whatsoever over the years? In the very year that both programs have greatly exceeded expectations?

Someone else already mentioned this, but the fact that our "mid-major" conference generates 5-10 page discussion threads on BE message boards tells me all I need to know.
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:29 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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They've chosen to use Duquesne and Fordham as the two primary examples of programs that have not improved whatsoever over the years? In the very year that both programs have greatly exceeded expectations?

Someone else already mentioned this, but the fact that our "mid-major" conference generates 5-10 page discussion threads on BE message boards tells me all I need to know.
That's because the BE message boards are powered by holy crap.
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:39 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
I'm not sure I understand the love for the round robin format. Personally, I liked the A10 better when it was a 12 team, divisional setup. For instance, depending on what happens over the next couple of games, the UD v Bona game in few weeks could be a battle for 1st in the "west division" and a top seed line. The game b/w Bona & Duquesne might be a battle for the 2 seed if Bona losses @ UD, or it might be a chance for Bona to lock up the 1 or 2 seed if they won at UD (depending on how UD fairs @ Rhody and St Joes). Just seems like there is more excitement added to more games when your competing in divisions.

From Marquette's perspective, I'm sure its great knowing that Nova and Georgetown (I guess) are going to show up every season, but does anyone get all that excited for Seton Hall or St John's? There has long been a hatred from Marquette (message board fans) towards UD; I have no idea why. We used to be rivals of sort, but that has been a long time. The last 2 images I have of Marquette vs UD involve DJ Stelly blocking Dewayne Wade's shot to seal off a win at UD and Chris Wright's nut sack scraping the head of some poor Marquette player's head as he soared over him for a dunk. In other words, I'm most indifferent about the school and program, I'm not sure why they would be any different.
The round robin is great because of the perfectly balanced conference schedule. 10 teams means a home and away with every conference mate, that appeals to a lot of people.
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:49 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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The round robin is great because of the perfectly balanced conference schedule. 10 teams means a home and away with every conference mate, that appeals to a lot of people.
It is nice to have a balanced schedule. Of course, some feel that a schedule weighted towards divisional games helps create rivalries. I think a few things are at work with regard to BE expansion. First, I don't think they agree on what they should be looking for. Other than UConn (which is not going to happen), there is no school that jumps off the page the way Xavier, and Butler did. If they were just looking for the best basketball teams, they would have added Dayton, and VCU already. If institutional fit is a must, replace VCU with UR. If it were strictly markets, they would have added St. Louis, and Duquesne. Outside of something crazy, like Gonzaga joining, any addition is going to come from the A10, and will stop at 12 teams. Due to shared markets, URI, SJU, LSU, GW, GMU, and Fordham will never be invited. The other 8 all have their pluses, and minuses, and I don't think the ten schools can get on the same page as to who should be at the top of the list. Thus, they will be patient, as they can decide to expand whenever it suits them. Short of St. Louis, and Duquesne dominating the A10 for half a decade, which would make them easy choices, I don't see what any A 10 school can do, other than try to win at a high level, so that they'll be considered if the time comes. Of course, if those BE teams don't start making some hay in March, going there might not be such a big deal long term.
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Old 02-11-2016, 03:51 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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The long term plan is for the P5 to go their own way.
Never happen. Not like that. Let’s go to the tale of the tape…

The Power 5 teams combined last season were 1092-686 entering the NCAA Tournament, 687-687 vs each other; 507-101 against non-Power 5 teams.
If they ditch the non-Power 5 schools, They’d be 406-406 OOC instead of 609–203. That’s 203 more losses.

Example: NC State (NCAA Tournament last year) was 20-13 overall. 12-12 vs P5.

Is the Power 5 going to have a 64 team tournament with 65 teams? Will they do a play-in game for 3-26 Rutgers vs 1-29 Boston College?


In football, EVERYONE is using their 3 games against P5 and FCS opponents to become bowl eligible. When you remove non P5 games, only 25 of 65 teams are over .500.

Is the Belk Bowl going to be 3-9 Kentucky vs 0-12 Kansas?



But THAT’S not even the big reason it won’t happen.

P5 Basketball played 1778 games and 1,243 were AT HOME (69.9%)
P5 Football teams on average, played 6.8 home games (57%)

With only each other, it has to be 50%.

P5 Hoops loses 354 home games. AVG attendance 9,800, let’s say 10,000 without lackluster guarantee games on the schedule
P5 Football loses 52 home games. AVG attendance 63,280, let’s say 65,000 without lackluster guarantee games on the schedule.

354 basketball home games lost = 3.54 million tickets.
52 football home games lost = 3.8 million tickets.

Low, educated guesses for average ticket prices (NOT including mandatory donations)
$30 for basketball = $106,000,000 in lost revenue
$300 for football = $1,140,000,000 in lost revenue

That’s about $1.250 BILLION in revenue lost from playing half their games on the road instead of just 33%.

Not to mention, when you’re a 1-29 Boston College basketball team, or an 0-12 Kansas football team, booster donations are going to dry up in a hurry.

They also have less inventory to sell to TV, because all those home games lost were their own, and now they’re someone else’s rights.



Don’t get me wrong, the P5 leaving the NCAA, or forming a new “Super Division I” IS TOTALLY REALISTIC. But they’re going to take the OTHER FBS SCHOOLS with them and dictate terms so they can keep the gravy train rolling. If/When it happensIt'll be the FBS leaving the rest of us behind. Even the Big East.
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Old 02-11-2016, 04:35 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

Just skimming through this and I like being in the A10 so I am not a fan dead set on begging into the Big East. Jesuit arrogance is out of control. Seriously, I swear even every Jesuit high school has this better than their own fellow Catholics mentality. Crazy.

Also for how much Dayton fans get called delusional can we please mention Marquette? Lol.
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:04 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

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Originally Posted by jpschmack View Post
Never happen. Not like that. Let’s go to the tale of the tape…

The Power 5 teams combined last season were 1092-686 entering the NCAA Tournament, 687-687 vs each other; 507-101 against non-Power 5 teams.
If they ditch the non-Power 5 schools, They’d be 406-406 OOC instead of 609–203. That’s 203 more losses.

Example: NC State (NCAA Tournament last year) was 20-13 overall. 12-12 vs P5.

Is the Power 5 going to have a 64 team tournament with 65 teams? Will they do a play-in game for 3-26 Rutgers vs 1-29 Boston College?


In football, EVERYONE is using their 3 games against P5 and FCS opponents to become bowl eligible. When you remove non P5 games, only 25 of 65 teams are over .500.

Is the Belk Bowl going to be 3-9 Kentucky vs 0-12 Kansas?



But THAT’S not even the big reason it won’t happen.

P5 Basketball played 1778 games and 1,243 were AT HOME (69.9%)
P5 Football teams on average, played 6.8 home games (57%)

With only each other, it has to be 50%.

P5 Hoops loses 354 home games. AVG attendance 9,800, let’s say 10,000 without lackluster guarantee games on the schedule
P5 Football loses 52 home games. AVG attendance 63,280, let’s say 65,000 without lackluster guarantee games on the schedule.

354 basketball home games lost = 3.54 million tickets.
52 football home games lost = 3.8 million tickets.

Low, educated guesses for average ticket prices (NOT including mandatory donations)
$30 for basketball = $106,000,000 in lost revenue
$300 for football = $1,140,000,000 in lost revenue

That’s about $1.250 BILLION in revenue lost from playing half their games on the road instead of just 33%.

Not to mention, when you’re a 1-29 Boston College basketball team, or an 0-12 Kansas football team, booster donations are going to dry up in a hurry.

They also have less inventory to sell to TV, because all those home games lost were their own, and now they’re someone else’s rights.



Don’t get me wrong, the P5 leaving the NCAA, or forming a new “Super Division I” IS TOTALLY REALISTIC. But they’re going to take the OTHER FBS SCHOOLS with them and dictate terms so they can keep the gravy train rolling. If/When it happensIt'll be the FBS leaving the rest of us behind. Even the Big East.
Same difference with regards to us. That would make it even easier for them, as they'd still have some Cinderellas in the tournament. Only difference is that Cindy would be some MAC school instead of Norfolk St., or Florida Gulf Coast. The public would likely still buy that. We'll be as relevant as D2.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:14 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Re: Reshuffling Conferences

JP and Flyer75...

I think you find Xavier fans and the majority of Big East fans against expansion because they don't want to give up quality games nearly every game they play.

Greg McDermott has said it over and over how great it is to be playing games with such magnitude and importance nearly every night out.

For example, Xavier doesn't get a 6 seed going 19-12 if the Big East isn't configured as it is. It just doesn't. Including the BE tournament, Xavier goes 21-13 and gets 9 Top 50 wins.

You've got a conference where 80% of the teams are in the Top 100. 80%. 90% are in the Top 150. For comparison, the A-10 has 42% of its teams in the Top 100 and 64% in the Top 150.

Nearly every time a BE team plays, they are playing a Top 100 team.

In this talk about expansion - what players would actually push expansion? Fox doesn't care - unless a blue blood or true national program was added, adding 2 teams aren't going to affect the ratings.... and from everything I hear the coaches and AD's LOVE the set-up now.
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