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kflo · 06-20-2005, 01:01 PM

you did little different than the other posters in this thread. you just had a differing opinion. you say pierce worked hard, tmac hasn't. you offered no assessment of what pierce does better, how his work ethic has manifested itself in superior skills, how you even know he's worked harder.

coachhomer · 06-20-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kflo

you did little different than the other posters in this thread. you just had a differing opinion. you say pierce worked hard, tmac hasn't. you offered no assessment of what pierce does better, how his work ethic has manifested itself in superior skills, how you even know he's worked harder.

Like I said, if you really are interested then pm me.

C

MVPlaya · 06-20-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Causeway

In the Celtics thread there has been some debate as to Paul Pierce's value to the Celtics and his place in the NBA in general.

Personally I feel he is as good as any 2 gurad in the NBA and specifically I'd take Pierce over Kobe and TMAC on my team.

With Kobe obviously he has the rings but the fact that Pierce has played with far inferior talent should not go against him. Shaq greatly helped Kobe in many ways.

So who is "better" and as imporantly- or more importantly - who would you rather have on your team - Pierce, Kobe or TMAC?

LOL. Does there even need to be reason or anythin to back it up that Kobe and T-Mac are better than Pierce?

SG's I would take over Pierce
AI (if you consider him one, but hes a 2-guard)
Kobe
T-Mac
Dwayne Wade
Ray Allen
LeBron James

I dunno if I missed anybody, but Pierce has fallin off. And for ya'll who base everythin on stats, look at his decline starting from 01-02.

kflo · 06-20-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachhomer

Like I said, if you really are interested then pm me.

C

i don't think it's pm worthy. you entered the thread disparaging others for their contributions in this thread, and then, imo, didn't offer much to elevate the discussion, or add much other than a differing opinion. i found it a bit odd / funny. i'm sure you can add more to the topic, you just haven't yet, imo.

Causeway · 06-20-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVPlaya

LOL. Does there even need to be reason or anythin to back it up that Kobe and T-Mac are better than Pierce?

Since there are so far 5 pages of posts on this I'd say people are into the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVPlaya

SG's I would take over Pierce
AI (if you consider him one, but hes a 2-guard)
Kobe
T-Mac
Dwayne Wade
Ray Allen
LeBron James

Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Care to back up your list with some facts or even opinions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVPlaya

I dunno if I missed anybody, but Pierce has fallin off. And for ya'll who base everythin on stats, look at his decline starting from 01-02.

How has he fallen off - seriously? His efficiency and PPS are still right up there - something he has always excelled at. He gets to the line as well as anyone in the game. He is an excellent rebounder for his size.

Looking at your list you have Kobe as #2. I would argue that Kobe did less this past season with more talent than with what Pierce had on the Celtics. The Kobe led Lakers finished the season 2-19.

Spriggan · 06-20-2005, 01:37 PM

What kflo is saying is that he called you out on your hypocrisy and you offered some explanation which did nothing to address that. You then stated, even though you're the person who called out other posters in the thread, that kflo should take it to PM.

Yes, it is oddly funny.

coachhomer · 06-21-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spriggan

What kflo is saying is that he called you out on your hypocrisy and you offered some explanation which did nothing to address that. You then stated, even though you're the person who called out other posters in the thread, that kflo should take it to PM.

Yes, it is oddly funny.

where is the hypocracy? and read my posts again. I clearly stated...

Paul Pierce is more skilled than Tracy McGrady. Thats right, MORE SKILLED. He has to be to be successful in this league. Tracy relies more on his athleticism at this point in his career.

Do I need to define "skilled" for you?

1. He has better footwork than McGrady.
Pierce doesn’t travel every time he makes a move to the basket. The NBA is very forgiving in this area for monitary purposes. Tracy’s footwork is born from athleticism with no attention to detail.

2. Pierce is has an incredible shot fake.
Like I said earlier, he has to be good at the intangibles to compete at this level. Would you agree that Larry Bird had to be skilled to make it in the league?

I also said…Paul Pierce is a better basketball player. Tracy McGrady is a better athlete.

Take away some of McGrady’s athleticism to the point where Paul Pierce is, and then who would you take? Exactly. Pierce knows the game. And maybe it is because he came from a school with one of the greatest teachers of the game.

3. Pierce plays the game with balance where Tracy is always off balance.
Again it goes back to Tracy relying on athleticism. On his ability to elevate on his jumpshot or going to the basket. Paul Pierce does a better job creating space between himself and the defender because he cannot out jump or blow by a defender the way McGrady does.

This only scratches the surface of how different these two guys are.

I have done my research on these guys. But the bottom line is that the info mentioned would be the same information that you would receive from well respected individuals who know the game and are not fans. There is nothing wrong with being a fan, if it wasn’t for the fans then there wouldn’t be a game. A fan has not been subjected to countless hours of coaching/researching/scouting/learning with and from the best.

Like I said earlier, McGrady can far surpass Pierce if he chooses to do so, but in my opinion he has not done it yet.

C

HB · 06-21-2005, 09:37 AM

^Pretty good arguement there

kflo · 06-21-2005, 10:16 AM

i'd say your getting warmer. to complete the picture, you need to show how these things translate to performance. it leads to pierce being better at what? scoring? scoring efficiency? passing? turnovers? ballhandling? rebounding? defense? assessment of skills and pros / cons doesn't get us there. similar arguments can be made about much lesser players (ex. - wally szczerbiak has good footwork, ballfakes, balance).

my objection hasn't been with any opinion of who is better. it's been how you've presented your argument. if you're going to knock people for their stance, at least try and present an argument for why. you're getting there now.

farhan007 · 06-22-2005, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachhomer

It amazes me how many people know absolutely nothing about the game of basketball.

There should be an idolizer/I get all my basketball knowledge from Sportcenter forum where everyone can post their ignorant comments.

What do we know here?
1. Tracy McGrady is a great athlete.
2. Paul Pierce is not a great athlete.

Paul Pierce is more skilled than Tracy McGrady. Thats right, MORE SKILLED. He has to be to be successful in this league. Tracy relies more on his athleticism at this point in his career. If Paul Pierce was as athletic as McGrady this thread would be limited to the aforementioned idolizer/I get all my basketball knowledge from Sportcenter forum because it wouldn't even be a question as to who was better.

Pierces numbers are down this year slightly, but so are his minutes.

Bottom line is that Tracy McGrady is still an immature gifted athlete who's work ethic is extremely questionable at best. How will he fair in 6 years when his athleticism has diminished? That will be interesting.

Jordan adapted his game as he aged. He became stronger and smarter. Dominique Wilkins chose the other route. Many have chosen the second route. Why? Because it is easier. Paul Pierce has worked to become what he is as a player. Tracy has worked as well, but not nearly as hard I can guarantee you that.

So as I sort through a lot of the nonsense that has been written in this thread, I think to myself..."What was the title of this thread again". Oh thats right Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA

Some of you have written some good info... well maybe a few of you anyway.

Does Pierce measure up the the other great wings in this league? Absolutely. I would take him over McGrady in a heartbeat.

Paul Pierce is a better basketball player. Tracy McGrady is a better athlete. Can Tracy Become one of the greatest players ever? Yes he can, his potential is far greater than that of Pierce. Pierce has maxed out. Tracy has not.

I am not a Paul Pierce fan and I am not a Tracy McGrady hater. I am also not a fan! Fact is, neither one of these guys is a leader. I wouldn't build a team around either one of these guys. But they are 2 of a small group of guys at that position that are very good at what they do.

C

well,
i dont like appealing to tv ads much, but i remeber when they had a promo to the 2005 all-star game and were listing all the starters and told what strength they brought to the game. im paraphrasing here but it said "what is takes to be an nba allstar", and next to mcgrady's promo it said "Skill".

But id you dont believe in promo's, how come you dont think mcgrady has skilll? He great shooter(he gets on hot streaks like no other player in the league), is the best ball handler at his height range, and is a great passer.... funny how you say mcgrady doesnt have skill and relies on athletisism more than peirce, while mcgrady averages more assists. Do creating for other players rely more on athletisism or skill?

farhan007 · 06-22-2005, 07:14 AM

btw, ive heard many national tv game analysts say mcgrady is the smoothest player in the game. the smoothest player in the game isnt off balancned and always relies on athletisism. t-mac also is a better ball handler(im sure almost any coach would rather of mcgrady run the point). being a pg requires more skill than athletisism. T-mac is also has one of the best shot fakes in the game

coachhomer · 06-22-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farhan007

well,
i dont like appealing to tv ads much, but i remeber when they had a promo to the 2005 all-star game and were listing all the starters and told what strength they brought to the game. im paraphrasing here but it said "what is takes to be an nba allstar", and next to mcgrady's promo it said "Skill".

But id you dont believe in promo's, how come you dont think mcgrady has skilll? He great shooter(he gets on hot streaks like no other player in the league), is the best ball handler at his height range, and is a great passer.... funny how you say mcgrady doesnt have skill and relies on athletisism more than peirce, while mcgrady averages more assists. Do creating for other players rely more on athletisism or skill?

Funny... I never said McGrady was NOT skilled.

He is if fact very skilled, just less than Pierce. His game isn't fully refined yet. When he figures out the concept of "Economy of Motion" and he learns how to use his strength as opposed to finess to create a shot, he will be maximizing his potential.

My question has always been, will he ever figure this out?

C

f22egl · 06-22-2005, 08:31 AM

The one thing that holds T-Mac back in my mind is his playoff futility. At least Pierce has led the Celtics past the 1st round a couple of times while T-Mac has not. Kobe, although he had Shaq, has proven to be clutch but so has Pierce. Kobe hasn't shown he can carry a team by himself either and doesn't seem to be a good team player.

mediocre man · 06-22-2005, 08:38 AM

To answer the original question, I think Paul Pierce's value to the Celtics is huge. He is by far their best player, but if you mean what his value would be in a trade that's different. As a fan of a team in dire need of a shooting guard there are a lot of players I would rather have. Paul Pierce is easily one of the top 10 guards in the league, but not top 5 IMO.

Here are some that I think are better in no particuar order
Kobe
T-Mac
Iverson
Wade
James
Allen
maybe even Ginobili

And if we were talking trade, I'd take Joe Johnson and maybe Michael Redd over him as well because of age.

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