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06-22-2005, 02:02 PM
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#91 (permalink)
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BasketballBoards 6th Man
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 392
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by Air Fly
I'll take kobe over pierce but not pierce, infact here's how i list them
1- Kobe
2- Carter
3- pierce
4- tmac
5- Ray allen
those guys are vets so no wade or lebron...they've been in the league for so long playing amazing basketball....no kids allowed!!!
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06-22-2005, 02:11 PM
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#92 (permalink)
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IT'S THE PLAYOFFS TIME
Join Date: Apr 2005
Age: 21
Posts: 10,662
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by DH12
No response necessary. |
Tmac homer, tell him to get da **** outta the first round of the playoff first then we can talk
vince career ppg 23.9
FG% .448
3p% .390
tmac career ppg 22.0
FG%.444
3p% .348 and 8 years wihtout getting outta the playoff first round
what a loser he is.....
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06-22-2005, 02:15 PM
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#93 (permalink)
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IT'S THE PLAYOFFS TIME
Join Date: Apr 2005
Age: 21
Posts: 10,662
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
To me.......
Kobe = Lord of da rings
Pierce = The Truth
Vince = Vinsanity
Tmac = overrated and a loser.. |
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06-22-2005, 02:27 PM
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#94 (permalink)
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Thanks Danny!
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,300
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by Air Fly
To me.......
Kobe = Lord of da rings
Pierce = The Truth
Vince = Vinsanity
Tmac = overrated and a loser.. |
No doubt Kobe has the rings - but clearly he got those rings on teams FAR superior than anything Pierce has played with in Boston. Shaq helps. A lot.
Kobe this past season IMO had more talent arond him than Pierce did in Boston and look what happened. Granted the Lakers are in the West but they had a losing record against the East and finished the season 2-19. That's a team that threw in the towel in the end and that starts with your team "leader".
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06-22-2005, 02:27 PM
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#95 (permalink)
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Legends Never Die
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 4,209
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
Rock is ours, good post on Pierce. Sums up very well what happened this year. It's good to see some non-Celtic fans giving him his due, and looking past his "measly" 22ppg this year to get a better picture.
__________________
"Paul Pierce is the (expletive) truth. Quote me on that and don't take nothing out. I knew he could play, but I didn't know he could play like this. Paul Pierce is the truth."
- Shaquille O'Neal
"Kirilenko's eyes started to tear in the locker room as he talked in a shaky voice about his frustrations and inability to stop Pierce. He played just four minutes in the final quarter because of his inept defense, but his small consolation was that none of his teammates could do any better."
- Salt Lake Tribune
"I think he is at a point in his career where he gets very distracted by having a hand in his face."
- Portland forward Buck Williams on Larry Bird, before Larry Legend dropped 49 points, 14 rebounds, and 12 assists in a double overtime win
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06-22-2005, 03:02 PM
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#96 (permalink)
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Star
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Little Rock, AR
Age: 23
Posts: 2,948
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by theRockisOurs
On Pierce-
Pierce is overlooked by some this year, because he isn't as flashy as the other premier guards. Also, ppg factors in as well. They see the numbers for him are lower, so they assume he has fallen off. Paul Pierce simply gets it done, efficiently and often quietly for years now. Look at his career stats, very impressive. He is a decent rebounder for his position and his post game is good. He gets to the line alot, relying on his strength more than athlecism. He plays well in the fourth quarter and led his team to the conference finals with the next best player being Antoine Walker. The only knock on him is his questionable decisions at times, exemplified by the boneheaded move in game 6 this year against Indiana. I don't know if Pierce is the guy, if Boston is heading in the rebuliding mode with their young guys, to build upon.
With that said. I put him a little behind Mcgrady and Kobe, because I feel his prime is maxed out.
Coach Homer- I completely agree with you on Mcgrady's reliance on athlecism. You don't know how many times, I'd wish he would just drive in instead of pulling up for a jumper. If he had the tenacity of Pierce, wow, I can't imagine how good he would be.
However, Mcgrady's creativity and ability to score in many ways in my opinion is what separates the two. But you're right talent doesn't mean better player. And the difference in the two players is very little.
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McGrady IMO is a much better player...
explain how pulling up for a jumper...is more athletic than driving and finishing around the hoop....please explain...
nobody is punishing pierce for his drop in ppg....Mcgrady averaged 32ppg two years ago....this year he averaged 25ppg....yet, he's still considered by many a better playe than pierce...
__________________
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I know plenty of old timers and HOFer's that claimed defense in the late 90's and early 2000's weren't as good as the 80's. Wilt once said he'd average 70 ppg in the modern-day NBA because defenses were so much worse. Pippen once said KG was a stats guy who disappears down the stretch of games. Bill Walton once said Rasho was a better interior defender than Tim Duncan because Tim Duncan was on the bench at the time. Barkley once said Argentina was located north of the Indian ocean.
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~ EHL on why posters should never cite the opinions of former players to better their arguments
Intangibles
in*tan*gi*bles (greek meaning: plays hard every night) - 1. word used to describe marginally talented and productive basketball players. 2. Last resort when explaining the "value" of said marginally talented and productive player. 3. Shane Battier
Love the Marc Jackson-Jeff Van Gundy combo...
"I've played with guys like Rodmonavic; good enough to keep both teams in the game."~ Jackson during gm 5 commenting as Rodmonavic scores at one end and gives up another layup.
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06-22-2005, 03:03 PM
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#97 (permalink)
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Baddest Honky Mofo Alive
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 9,400
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by coachhomer
....McGrady has a better handle...is that because of athleticism???
arguable. He is more flashy. This does not mean he has a better handle. Ball handling is not limited transition/half court 1 on 1 moves. Ball handling encompases controling the ball while getting hit by a defender and being able to make a pass or shoot the ball. John Stockton was one of the best ball handlers ever and he rarely put the ball between his legs. McGrady looks like a good ball handler because he will put the ball behind his back and then between his legs and the wheel dribble. Kids like that stuff cause it looks good and fans like it too because they can't do it. It is all fluff. It is not needed. Like I said earlier... "Economy of Motion". Jordan didn't make all those moves. Jordan would in-out dribble to a crossover and that was the extent of his move. All you have to do is bate the defender once if your footwork and ball skills are good.
So to answer your question... NO
...McGrady's a better passer...is that because of athleticism???
I would disagree here. A good pass isn't the pass you see on Sportcenter between 2 defenders as the passer looks away. That is flashy, but 85% of those passes don't make it and they don't show the ones that don't make it on Sportscenter. A good pass is putting your teamate in a position where they can score. McGrady can thread a 3/4 court pass through 5 defenders legs in transition and if the pass goes to Dikembe Mutombo running on the break, then that is a BAD pass. Dike shouldn't be catching the ball in transition, he will more than likely turn it over.
So to answer your question... NO
...McGrady's a better defender...is that because of athleticism???
the simple answer is YES but for lack of time I will not expand upon this until later.
...McGrady's a better shooter....is that because of athleticism???
again, arguable. if you are just going to quote stats of shooting percentages well then you are keeping the thread a limited/shallow information thread. The art of shooting far exceeds just percentages.
Lets talk shooting... what do you want to know? off the dribble? of the catch? in transition? off a screen? (what type of screen? flare/down/back/pick and roll) moving left? moving right? on the block? midrange? outside the arc? I'll go back to what you said, give specifics. Don't just say he is a better shooter.
Bottom line is I would still disagree, but to answer your question... NO
...how does Pierce have better footwork....in what area....is it on the block...
Now we are getting somewhere. Let me ask you a question... Is Tracy a better athlete or not? I am not so convinced that you think he is.
Lets do a math equation to hopefully simplify things here.
Tracy's athleticism - Pierces athleticism = X
Tracy as a player - Pierce as a player = Y
which is a greater value, X or Y? I would argue that X is a bigger difference. That being said, if you gave Pierce Tracy's athleticism, Pierce would be an overall better player.
I remember watching these two go head to head several times. And I don't mean Celts vs. whatever team Tracy happened to be on, I mean guarding each other. They each had their moments, but in the end Pierce just out skilled him. One game was in Orlando and Pierce just ate him alive. He shot faked him to death and jab stepped him and got to the line and on that night it was obvious he was the better player.
Pierce has unbelievable footwork on the perimeter and on the block. He utilizes triple threat and he doesn't waste time and energy trying to out flash the defender. I will say this, Tracy has gotten tremendously better at this in the past 2 years, but he is not where Pierce is yet. Pierce's footwork keeps him on balance where McGrady looses his balance more often when he is hit going to the basket or bumped when planting his feet for a pull up jumper.
Tracy has gotten better and hopefully will continue to do so, and Pierce has pretty much maxed his potential out. My argument all along is that Pierce knows the game and he is a smarter player. Tracy has a way to go. If he learns what Pierce knows.. which took three years in college and a phenominal coach... he will be better than Pierce.
C
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My uncle from Galway used to say to me, " Chris, me lad, if you can't lose them with your logic, baffle them with your bullshyte." After reading that post I just have to ask, uncle Joe, is that you?
Now, mind you, in my own field I do the same thing to amateurs, throw out the technical terms to intimidate them and get them to leave me alone, while I do my work. But, when someone is smart enough to discuss the matter I give them fair play. There are a lot of assertions that you're flat out wrong on (i.e. Pierce's athleticism). And your non-answer to Tone-Wone's shooting question would do my uncle Joe proud. Now, had you simply said "McGrady isn't a better shooter than Pierce, they're pretty much the same." I wouldn't argue the matter. Pierce's career eFG% is four points higher, both are pretty good at shooting off the dribble. The rest of it is just designed to intimidate the readers. Tracy looks more awkward than Pierce when shooting jumpers because he's easier to move than P-2, but his mechanics are solid. Pierce is almost impossible to move because of his body, but I don't see that his mechanics are really any better. His strength is a huge advantage and he uses it well on offense.
Their offensive styles are only similar on the surface, and T-Mac's played in three very different systems and learned to flourish in each. Pierce has only made that transition once, and still hasn't flourished in Doc Rivers' sets. Then again, nobody seems to know what Doc wants on offense, least of all Doc (but part of that is, admittedly, the Celtics' mediocre personnel). In Doc's offense T-Mac was dominant, Pierce only very good. This doesn't mean that Pierce won't improve, he will. Just like T-Mac will improve in van Gundy's sets in Houston.
Pierce was, under the Ricktator and Jim O'Brien one of the best slashers in the NBA (and you don't get to the top of the heap slashing without being a heck of an athlete, some people's claims to the contrary notwithstanding). He reached his zenith under O'Brien because OB's offense was designed to maximise his one real asset, Pierce. His second best player was Antoine Walker and his third best the arthritic Eric Williams. To be brutally precise he peaked during the 2001-02 season because the franchise had the personnel to run OB's offense. Rodney Rogers & Tony Delk to be the weakside shooters from the three, taking defenders away from Pierce, Walker to run the offense, and the fifth guy (Battie, Blount, Williams) that ran back on D the minute a shot went in the air. All this allowed Pierce to operate in isolation on his side of the floor where Walker threaded passes to Pierce on the run. The offense was always ugly, but when it worked it was lethal. Compare Pierce's ability to create his own shots from 2001-03 to 2003-04. Once Walker was not there to make the "flashy" passes Pierce became a whole lot less effective. Though, in a sense, he became a better player by getting better at getting his shot off once he had to do it himself.
As for Pierce allegedly not being an athlete, it's a stupid claim (sorry, it simply is). Pierce is, in reality, one of the most athletic wings in the NBA. The only way to exclude him from that status is to define athleticism narrowly on the grounds of vertical leaping ability and end to end speed. Tracy McGrady certainly beats Pierce in those two areas. However, Pierce is one of the strongest players in the NBA. Seriously. There are no strength tests that have been invented that Garnett, Dirk, Lamar Odom or any number of other 4s have a prayer at beating Pierce in. He is 6'6" 245lbs of chiseled muscle. He is also extremely quick, even if he isn't blazingly fast. He has a very good first step. His strength & quickness make him almost impossible to defend. The power 3s that are all the rage can't defend him because they're taller and skinnier and Pierce uses his strength, quickness and (relatively) low center of gravity to get by them at will. The smaller shooting guards that he can't outleverage he simply overpowers with his size & strength. Your claims about Pierce's lack of athleticism are flatulence, pure & simple. Can Pierce sky 40"+ like MJ or LBJ? Nope. But I bet if we run the numbers to find out how much power is needed to shoot a 78" 245lb person three feet into the air it will turn out to be greater than the amount of power needed to send an 80" 225lb person 39" into the air. Because of Pierce's greater mass he's harder to move once he's in the air than the less massive T-Mac. So, yeah, once he's in the air you can knock T-Mac off balance more easily than a flying tank like Pierce. But just because T-Mac looks more awkward, doesn't mean that he is more awkward, or solely relying on athleticism to get by.
You say you want to neutralise T-Mac's athletic advantage to see how well he does? Great. How about Pierce's? How about we just give T-Mac Pierce's strength and quickness? What do we get? A 6'8" 250lb guy with a good first step that overpowers defenders at the 3 to get to the rim, but is too fast for 4s to cover effectively. Sound familiar? Like another NBA player that gets debated endlessly on these boards?
T-Mac's defensive footwork is extremely good, far better than Pierce's, and he's learned to use his speed and quickness on the defensive end. This can be referred to as the van Gundy Effect, he's got T-Mac to care on that end of the floor. It doesn't always work, he couldn't get Juwon Howard to play D. But no one else has, either. Pierce's athletic advantages don't help him as much on the defensive end, taller players are able to shoot over him, and the shooting guards that are quicker can get by him. His advantages on the defensive end are his quickness and his long arms (and long arms are not a "skill" the last time I checked), assets that he uses well when he has a mind to. He doesn't now, and that we can call the Doc Rivers Effect, because Doc doesn't give a tinkers dam for defense (this is why Doc Rivers teams never make it out of the first round of the playoffs). The fact remains, T-Mac is morphing into a lockdown defender, something that Pierce has never been, and won't ever be. So, to answer your charges, T-Mac doesn't "rely on his athleticism" any more than Pierce does. They are both highly skilled players that take advantage of their athletic gifts. If you want to limit the scope and say that McGrady could make even better use of them, I'm not going to argue that. But Vin Baker he isn't.
__________________
"The Spurs are the Jason Voorhees of the NBA. No matter how many times you think you've finally killed them, turn your back on them and they're right back on their feet, machete in one hand and chainsaw in the other."
"Tim Duncan is the biggest crybaby in the NBA. If the Spurs were gay, he'd be Liberace." MCD
"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed
"I do not know what the Queensberry rules are, sir, but the Wilde rules are to shoot on sight!" Oscar Wilde to the Marquis of Queensbury after being threatened by the former pugilist.
Those who are in the know praise Dead Women Tell No Tales:
"The account of Kobe participating in orgies and the description of the surroundings is accurate. I attended few of those parties myself..." -- Jondell R. Montgomery, Long Beach, 2006
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Last edited by ehmunro : 06-22-2005 at 03:17 PM.
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06-22-2005, 03:08 PM
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#98 (permalink)
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Star
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Little Rock, AR
Age: 23
Posts: 2,948
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by Air Fly
Tmac homer, tell him to get da **** outta the first round of the playoff first then we can talk
vince career ppg 23.9
FG% .448
3p% .390
tmac career ppg 22.0
FG%.444
3p% .348 and 8 years wihtout getting outta the playoff first round
what a loser he is..... |
whats funny is Vince missed the playoffs 2 straight year...1 yr his team made the playoffs without him...
mcgrady barely played his first 2 years...yet his career averages are damn near idenitical to Vince's...
"this macgrady isn;t that good stuff" is getting out of hand
__________________
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I know plenty of old timers and HOFer's that claimed defense in the late 90's and early 2000's weren't as good as the 80's. Wilt once said he'd average 70 ppg in the modern-day NBA because defenses were so much worse. Pippen once said KG was a stats guy who disappears down the stretch of games. Bill Walton once said Rasho was a better interior defender than Tim Duncan because Tim Duncan was on the bench at the time. Barkley once said Argentina was located north of the Indian ocean.
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~ EHL on why posters should never cite the opinions of former players to better their arguments
Intangibles
in*tan*gi*bles (greek meaning: plays hard every night) - 1. word used to describe marginally talented and productive basketball players. 2. Last resort when explaining the "value" of said marginally talented and productive player. 3. Shane Battier
Love the Marc Jackson-Jeff Van Gundy combo...
"I've played with guys like Rodmonavic; good enough to keep both teams in the game."~ Jackson during gm 5 commenting as Rodmonavic scores at one end and gives up another layup.
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06-22-2005, 03:39 PM
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#99 (permalink)
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BasketballBoards Rookie
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 24
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by tone wone
McGrady IMO is a much better player...
explain how pulling up for a jumper...is more athletic than driving and finishing around the hoop....please explain...
nobody is punishing pierce for his drop in ppg....Mcgrady averaged 32ppg two years ago....this year he averaged 25ppg....yet, he's still considered by many a better playe than pierce...
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Huh? Both pulling up for a jumper and driving to the hoop requires athleticism, I was saying that Mcgrady would be even more successful if he drove to the hoop MORE. It had nothing to do with athletism.
32ppg is amazing, 26 is very good. 22 to alot of people is
not that special, ya know what I mean? That was the point I was pointing out as the reason some ppl overlook Pierce, not punishing him.
I love Tmac, but I can see why some would prefer Pierce.
__________________
Location: Indianapolis..bball capital!
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06-22-2005, 03:51 PM
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#100 (permalink)
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BasketballBoards All-Star
Join Date: Mar 2004
Age: 24
Posts: 8,825
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
Is there even one thing that Paul Pierce does better than Tracy McGrady?
Honestly, the only thing I can think of is the spin move. Pierce has probably the best spin move in the entire leauge. His timing is ridiculously perfect. Actually, his ball-handling in general is slick. But McGrady, also being a slick ball-handler, does that and everything else at the same level or superior to Pierce.
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06-22-2005, 03:56 PM
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#101 (permalink)
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Community Moderator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Lovetron
Posts: 49,610
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Re: Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
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Originally Posted by tone wone
whats funny is Vince missed the playoffs 2 straight year...1 yr his team made the playoffs without him...
mcgrady barely played his first 2 years...yet his career averages are damn near idenitical to Vince's...
"this macgrady isn;t that good stuff" is getting out of hand
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I think the point of the earlier poster was T-mac has played 8 years in the league and as highly touted as he is, he hasnt really done much come crunch time i.e. the playoffs
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06-22-2005, 04:02 PM
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#102 (permalink)
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BasketballBoards All-Star
Join Date: Mar 2004
Age: 24
Posts: 8,825
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Pierce vs. the top 2's in the NBA
