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07-08-2008, 06:39 AM
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#31 (permalink)
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Benchwarmer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: stl
Posts: 103
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer
when defenses tried to out think themselves by playing all kinds of bull**** defenses, that just made beasley's job a lot easier. against texas, beasley wasn't getting much in the brief times they had a guy(damian james) guarding him that could match him in strength, size, and quickness. but when they went to a box and one with 6'2 justin mason sticking with beasley, it really opened stuff up for him.
kansas had a lot of talent this year but if you look at that team, you should expect a good post player to be able to dominate against them. they had great defensive perimeter guys but the same can't be said about their post players.
the "plan" to stop beasley is simple. just put a good defender on him and let the guy play. beasley is a good scorer and eventually(though not his rookie year) he'll be able to score 20 a game regardless of the defender. but team's out thinking themselves was part of the problem they had defending beasley. in the nba there are a lot more guys as big and strong as beasley that are also quick. he's going to have to work a lot harder for points in the nba than he did in college.
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well said... and dead on
that's EXACTLY what baylor did and it resulted in a victory for them at a critical time of the big12 season... sure, beasley got 44 and 13, but he wore down at the end and couldn't finish strong... sort of like in the summer game yesterday where he missed his last five shots or so... looked like an asthma flare-up and fatigue to me
that's why i've always said that his game is more tailor-made for the nba than for college... regardless of the 'size issue', he'll be very hard to contain in a defense where you can't "leave" other players (other than a ball-seeking double-team)... what will be interesting is seeing the offensive dynamic of the heat when he plays with d-wade and/or haslem/marion... while it may happen now and then, i've gotta think if he gets 20shots in a regular season game, something is wrong with the balance of their plan
Last edited by 4putt : 07-08-2008 at 06:45 AM.
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07-08-2008, 06:42 AM
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#32 (permalink)
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Yes we can.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 5,918
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
The scientific method surrenders.
One game where a guy goes 9 for 21 and now he's the clear superior player than the PG who scored 10 points in an NBA summer league game consisting of 80% non-NBA talents.
__________________
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07-08-2008, 06:54 AM
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#33 (permalink)
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Benchwarmer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: stl
Posts: 103
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizer Fanatic
To those saying Beasley torched everyone this year, Iowa State did a pretty good job of shutting down Beasley in a game this year. They had to collapse basically everyone on him to do it, but Beasley struggled and appeared frustrated at times during the game. ISU still lost the game, not a good team this past season, but their defense against Beasley & Walker gave them a chance...
http://media.www.iowastatedaily.com/...-3260096.shtml
That said, I think we can say that from a proven talent standpoint, Beasley was the safe pick (did it all year) and Rose was potential (blew up in the NCAAs). Much like LaMarcus was the safe pick (did it all year) & Tyrus was potential (blew up in the NCAAs). Or Okafor safe pick (proven college success) versus Howard potential (HS unknown). I'm not sure how I feel about waiting for potential from guys like Rose & Tyrus given the alternative in each case. This is especially true considering our challenges in front-court scoring. Hopefully, we'll find a way to maximize that potential over time. |
don't know if i remember that second game the way you do... because i remember that he was in foul trouble and only played 29min taking a league-games-low 12 shots... seems to me that what he DID do was hit two throws at the end (on the road) to seal the win, and according to the people on this board, "leadership" and "getting the win" far, far outrank any reference at all to statistical achievement
by the way, it should be noted that he went 33 and 15 in 22min in the other game between the teams (the one without the 'hilton magic')
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07-08-2008, 06:57 AM
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#34 (permalink)
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Benchwarmer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: stl
Posts: 103
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79
The scientific method surrenders.
One game where a guy goes 9 for 21 and now he's the clear superior player than the PG who scored 10 points in an NBA summer league game consisting of 80% non-NBA talents.
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truly stated... comments and worry at this point are WAY overblown... but you cannot deny the fact that the bulls played with three players that will see major minutes this year... i expect by the end of the week they will show a lot more cohesiveness
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07-08-2008, 07:05 AM
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#35 (permalink)
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ˇYa basta!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,732
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
I will say this... next time we play the Heat, I'd like to see Luol Deng on Beasley... I don't think anyone else tall enough has a chance at staying in front of him on our team...
Anyway, I hope Rose has a better second game and we can put this nonsense to rest... or at least get rid of some of the "I told you so" nonsense, which gets us nowhere. Many of us were split on who to draft... I was 50/50 right down to the wire... but now we have our guy, let's root for him and forget the Miami Heat...
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07-08-2008, 07:56 AM
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#36 (permalink)
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,668
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by BG7 Lavigne
How can Rose/Gordon not work out on defense? Gordon was part of the 2nd best defense in the league in 2004-2005 part of the 7th best defense in the league in 2005-2006, and part of the #1 defense in the league in 2006-2007. He was also part of the 14th (ouch!) best defense in 2007-2008.
Avery Johnson had the Jason Terry/Devin Harris starting combo, again comparable in size to Rose/Gordon, up at #5 best defense, and took the team to the finals with those two.
I don't think you understand basketball all that well. Defense is something that you don't necessarily need great defenders to be a great defensive team. You just need a great defensive system. Look at the team with Skiles as coach...they were constantly along the top, even with Ben Gordon, who due to you guys is the worst defender in the NBA. Then with Boylan, where he had no defensive schemes, we fall to #14. (Probably around #20 under Boylan, but 14 for the season, since we were either 2 or 3 when Skiles got fired in defense).
Gordon is a fine defender. He doesn't leave his guy wide open, he closes out on shooters. He does his part in the team's defense. He isn't like Nocioni who leaves his guy wide open.
In addition to defensive schemes being important, a big man is almost infinitely more valuable in a defense than a perimeter player. I'm honestly not really concerned what our perimeter guys do. Gordon is fine on defense, and Rose has to prove he is good too on defense. But if Rose is good, and Gordon maintains his level, we should be fine on the perimeter defensive wise. I am worried about our frontcourt, since Tyrus, Noah, and Gooden all don't understand defensive rotations, and are constantly in the wrong spot on defense because they have no idea what they're supposed to be doing. Aaron Gray understands these rotations but is too damned slow to rotate in time.
To have a great offense, you need great offensive players.
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Ha, and Luc Longley was on one of the greatest offensive teams ever, so he must be Jabbar.
Pointing out how Gordon "never leaves his man" is the equivalent of saying "Yeah, but she's bright and has a nice personality."
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07-08-2008, 08:04 AM
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#37 (permalink)
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All-Star
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Age: 26
Posts: 5,898
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentVega
That's exactly my point. Defenses tried everything, including the dimaond-and-one, throwing hackers at him, and the triple-team (saw that more on him than on Durant), and they still couldn't contain Beasley. He tore every team and every defender he faced to shreds -- and he wasn't playing in the MAC, the Big East or the overrated PAC-10. He did it against the best of the best -- the Big XII this season -- repeatedly. The dude simply knows how to score and rebound regardless of the situation...this sounds cliche, but he's like a shark who doesn't care about its prey -- he just feeds. He's that good. I just don't know how you can pass up on a talent like that. I really can't. Pax, you make me cry.
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I'm not disagreeing. Beasley is a special talent. Which is why the Bulls liked Beasley, according to reports. The real question is who did they like better. We had 2 special talents to choose from -- we could only take 1. We chose the special PG.
I'm sure Paxson would've liked nothing more than to draft both players. Reportedly, Pax made a swing at the #2 pick but Riley wasn't buying.
Honestly, I've been baffled from day 1 why the Heat never wanted Beasley. That's the head scratcher. Paxson wanted Beasley, but could only take one guy.
So, the thing to realize is that we needn't be judging Rose so harshly this early. He likely won't be the finished product until age 22-23. I would argue that Beasley is much much closer to "finished product" status; the guy is already so good offensively, you have to wonder whether there's much room to improve. With Rose, you have an equally high ceiling but in a different end package.
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07-08-2008, 08:18 AM
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#38 (permalink)
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-LIFETIME MEMBER-
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 375th St. YMCA
Posts: 8,045
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer
kansas had a lot of talent this year but if you look at that team, you should expect a good post player to be able to dominate against them. they had great defensive perimeter guys but the same can't be said about their post players.
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I respectfully disagree -- Kansas' perimeter defense was some of the best college basketball has seen over the last decade or so, so it's easy to look past its post defense. But KU's interior was also very talented. KU finished #1 in the Big XII in blocked shots, #1 in rebounding defense, #1 in FG defense, and #2 in rebounding margin (remember, the Big XII fielded 6 teams that made it to the NCAA Tournament, so these stats are extremely significant). Arthur and Kaun were both top 10 in the league in blocked shots, and KU's top three big men were selected in this year's NBA Draft. 6'11" KU freshman Cole Aldrich absolutely dominated faux-POY Tyler Hansbrough in the Final Four. Just humiliated him.
Beasley is going to score points and grab rebounds -- a lot of them -- from day one. He needs no time to adapt.
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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover and run across the fairway to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain. But whatever world you're from, I do know one thing: in the 20 years from March 22, 1972, when he first ordered that extra nicotine be put into his product, until February 25, 1992, when he issued an interoffice memorandum stopping the addition of that nicotine, my client was legally insane.
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07-08-2008, 08:21 AM
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#39 (permalink)
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-LIFETIME MEMBER-
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 375th St. YMCA
Posts: 8,045
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnrjr79
The scientific method surrenders.
One game where a guy goes 9 for 21 and now he's the clear superior player than the PG who scored 10 points in an NBA summer league game consisting of 80% non-NBA talents.
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The scientific method consists of having watched each player since high school, not just after they each entered the NBA.
__________________
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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover and run across the fairway to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain. But whatever world you're from, I do know one thing: in the 20 years from March 22, 1972, when he first ordered that extra nicotine be put into his product, until February 25, 1992, when he issued an interoffice memorandum stopping the addition of that nicotine, my client was legally insane.
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07-08-2008, 08:27 AM
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#40 (permalink)
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-LIFETIME MEMBER-
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 375th St. YMCA
Posts: 8,045
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
And I don't want to pile on Rose (not the intent of this thread), but by many accounts Chalmers pretty much shut down Rose last night. Can anyone verify this?
__________________
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Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and was later thawed by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! When I see my image on the security camera at the country club, I wonder, are they stealing my soul? I get so upset, I hop out of my Range Rover and run across the fairway to the clubhouse, where I get Carlos to make me one of those martinis he's so famous for, to soothe my primitive caveman brain. But whatever world you're from, I do know one thing: in the 20 years from March 22, 1972, when he first ordered that extra nicotine be put into his product, until February 25, 1992, when he issued an interoffice memorandum stopping the addition of that nicotine, my client was legally insane.
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07-08-2008, 08:46 AM
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#41 (permalink)
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Yes we can.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Location Location
Posts: 5,918
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentVega
The scientific method consists of having watched each player since high school, not just after they each entered the NBA.
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Actually, it wouldn't, but that's another story.
The point us, until these guys suit up and start playing actual NBA basketball games, this stuff is all apples and oranges. It's fun to watch and see how they perform, but starting a sky is falling thread after 1 fake basketball game is the height of silliness. Now perhaps your thread was just coincidental timing, but it sure seemed like a reaction to a summer league game.
__________________
Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator
Stolen from a tee shirt designed by Rolf Nelson.
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07-08-2008, 08:55 AM
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#42 (permalink)
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Banned Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Age: 23
Posts: 12,073
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Re: Pax made a huge mistake
And already the "I told you threads" are popping up 
I think the bigger issue is some of you who think we could just
come out and clobber the heat.
A bad loss shouldn't surprise anyone , we sucked last year so most likely we suck this year.
Getting a whole new staff and t the #1 pick won't solve everything right away. |
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07-08-2008, 08:57 AM
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#43 (permalink)
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All-Star
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Pax made a huge mistake
