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Old 08-11-2012, 09:19 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

not only is Iggy qualitatively better than Deng head to head but despite superficial similarities Deng and Iggy arent the same kind of player, and dont make the same kind of fit - Iggy is much more of a point forward facilitator and runs the floor better and is just a general all around better option for the nuggets system than Deng is
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:21 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by Dornado View Post
That being said, I get wanting Bynum... he's a gigantic presence in the paint with a high ceiling. If the Bulls really did have the opportunity to acquire him at something resembling a reasonable price and missed out for whatever reason, I'd be upset. The thing is, that's a hypothetical... I have no way to know whether or not we tried and failed, or never tried at all. I just can't see getting agitated over a hypothetical. It seems just as reasonable to me to believe that we did make an offer and were told we didn't have what they were looking for. We don't know.
I get it too...sort of. At least from Philly's perspective, I get it.

I am just saying it's not a no-brainer:
- $16M this upcoming season then he's a free agent next summer
- In the case that he does bolt, he will have played in a "lost season" where Rose is not playing most of the time
- If we do re-sign him, he will cost a ton (max contract, most likely...even more than Boozer)
- Extensive injury history
- We would've given up at a minimum a very good player in Deng and 1-2 picks/prospects, and that assumes they would've taken it

IMO, that is not a no-brainer even it was on the table. I do admit my bias here b/c I've never been a big fan of Andrew Bynum.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:55 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

Let me throw another thought on the table...

If we were to be so bold as to trade for Andrew Bynum, why not just go for Dwight Howard? Both have 1-yr contracts and could bolt next summer. Howard is clearly better and has less injury history. And I have little doubt the Bulls could've topped what Orlando received (e.g., Noah, Bobcats Pick, and future 1st for Howard and a bad contract as the basis of the trade).

Another way of saying that Bynum was not worth trading for. Howard, maybe...that is a different topic.
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by Dornado View Post
That being said, I get wanting Bynum... he's a gigantic presence in the paint with a high ceiling. If the Bulls really did have the opportunity to acquire him at something resembling a reasonable price and missed out for whatever reason, I'd be upset. The thing is, that's a hypothetical... I have no way to know whether or not we tried and failed, or never tried at all. I just can't see getting agitated over a hypothetical. It seems just as reasonable to me to believe that we did make an offer and were told we didn't have what they were looking for. We don't know.
This is the same as saying "Well, if Wilt had Russell's teammates, he would have won more" in an argument to try to diminish that Russell was a better winner than Wilt.

You can play this argument all you want that goes like this. "No good player has EVER been available to the Bulls. Because if they were, the Bulls would have made the deal. Paxson hasn't done something, because there truly has never been anything that could be done."

Offering this as an excuse for him NOT making deals isn't the same as him MAKING DEALS. So, if your point is that of all of the non-active GMs, he's not the worst, because you have excuses for him not acting or you want to play "we don't know" .. that's fine, but that's not the same as him actually swinging good deals like a McCloskey, Buford, Kupchak, Krause, Auerbach, Ainge and Dumars. You're just giving me reasons he's not the worst of the other guys who aren't in that group. Please realize that. Your argument, if I grant you every last part of it, is an argument as to why he's "NOT BAD" not as to why he's actually affirmatively good.

"Kobe Bryant didn't score like Michael and have the role Michael had in 6 titles because (insert excuses or 'things we can't know about') is an argument for why Kobe isn't worse than Michael by some degree. It can never be used as an argument that he's better.

Pro Paxson arguments are a lot like pro Wilt Chamberlain arguments.

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My best guess is that people probably aren't lining up to trade for Luol Deng. And to anticipate the Hoodey response of "that's what good GMs do, they make those deals happen", that's just not how the world works. Any illusion that anyone has about Mitch Kupcheck or other comparable GMs possessing some kind of jedi-mindtrick where they can force teams to take on less desirable players is just that, an illusion. When I'm negotiating a contract, for example, and the other party doesn't want to do something I want them to do... I can't just will them in the right direction... either you have an offer that is appealing to the other party or you don't. At this professional level there is no duping other GMs (despite the questionable decisions they occasionally make)... this isn't fantasy sports where you might have a lot more information than the other guy. Everyone knows who Luol Deng is... either they want him or they don't.
But you can't have it both ways. If Deng "just isn't that good" then Paxson has to be a terrible awful chump piece of mediocre crap for signing him to that deal. He can't be a "guy that just isn't desirable to the rest of the league" also be 70 mill desirable to Paxson and all of his chump fans who love that mediocre pile of crap that is Deng so much, and have Paxson not be an idiot for signing him.

Remember, before you reply about how I want it both ways. I never said Deng was good. Iguodala just isn't good either. Neither of them will be remembered by anyone in 20 years for anything ever.

The point is that Philly found a way with assets a lot worse than us. You addressed Deng. You did not address Deng plus Gibson or the Charlotte pick or even a Noah-centered trade.

Good GMs go out and make it happen. They get Howard when Howard was supposed to be gift wrapped for Brooklyn. They get Scottie Pippen for Olden Polynice. They don't hand out almost 30 million to two pieces of dung like Boozer and Deng.
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:57 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Let me throw another thought on the table...

If we were to be so bold as to trade for Andrew Bynum, why not just go for Dwight Howard? Both have 1-yr contracts and could bolt next summer. Howard is clearly better and has less injury history. And I have little doubt the Bulls could've topped what Orlando received (e.g., Noah, Bobcats Pick, and future 1st for Howard and a bad contract as the basis of the trade).

Another way of saying that Bynum was not worth trading for. Howard, maybe...that is a different topic.
Bynum was not the one crying about not signing an extension except with certain teams.

Bynum not worth trading for, when you look at who else we have on this team.

Dude, you're a defender and an apologist if I ever saw one. Don't sit here and take Paxson's side, the same side that the same people always seem to take, and then try to tell me I'm arguing stuff you didn't post. Please. Ever heard of implicit?
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:07 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

Simple answer to this madness: MONEY.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:57 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Let me throw another thought on the table...

If we were to be so bold as to trade for Andrew Bynum, why not just go for Dwight Howard? Both have 1-yr contracts and could bolt next summer. Howard is clearly better and has less injury history. And I have little doubt the Bulls could've topped what Orlando received (e.g., Noah, Bobcats Pick, and future 1st for Howard and a bad contract as the basis of the trade).

Another way of saying that Bynum was not worth trading for. Howard, maybe...that is a different topic.
if bynum is not worth trading for than no one on the bulls currently is worth trading for because as a player he is flat out better than any bull not named rose and unlike rose he is currently healthy.

there is no way if the bulls made the trade offer you used as an example you wouldn't see the bulls as a much better team.

and that is the point , the bulls to be better....supposedly.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:19 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by Da Grinch View Post
if bynum is not worth trading for than no one on the bulls currently is worth trading for because as a player he is flat out better than any bull not named rose and unlike rose he is currently healthy.

there is no way if the bulls made the trade offer you used as an example you wouldn't see the bulls as a much better team.

and that is the point , the bulls to be better....supposedly.
Look, I agree Bynum is better than anyone on the team sans Rose. I never said he wasn't.

The question here is not does he make the team better, it is whether he will even be here in a year when Rose is actually...you know, playing again.

And if he re-signs, you have zero reservation about Bynum's injury history for a guy who demand a max contract? For all the people who hate Boozer around here, I do not see how those same people would be willing to absorb the same risk of him missing significant time.

All this for a guy who, while better than Deng and Boozer, is not extensively better the way people like to say. His value is inflated b/c he is the #2 player at the weakest position in the league. All things considering I'm just not a huge fan of the idea, sorry.

I believe there will be better opportunities to be bold, and also the Rose recovery does not strike me as the best time to take a huge risk like this. If it was a no-brainer decision like trading for Dwight (w/ an extension in place), then sure make the move. If not, what the hell else are we supposed to do this upcoming season without our franchise player.

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Old 08-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Look, I agree Bynum is better than anyone on the team sans Rose. I never said he wasn't.

The question here is not does he make the team better, it is whether he will even be here in a year when Rose is actually...you know, playing again.

And if he re-signs, you have zero reservation about Bynum's injury history for a guy who demand a max contract? For all the people who hate Boozer around here, I do not see how those same people would be willing to absorb the same risk of him missing significant time.

All this for a guy who, while better than Deng and Boozer, is not extensively better the way people like to say. His value is inflated b/c he is the #2 player at the weakest position in the league.
1.you pay players based on their ability to help you win.

if bynum does that at a max player's level I have no reservations about paying him that amount of money.

2. rose supposedly will be back by the end of the season, i strongly doubt he'll be at full strength , but back is back.

3. i dont complain about boozer's injury history , I complain that when healthy he really isn't all that great . bynum's injury history has not inhibited his ability to keep improving and playing well.

4. the center spot is considered weak because there are no good scorers there, and alot of the guys who are big and can score play power forward instead , centers pretty much can all play defense and rebound , and as long as bynum can rebound and score on those centers its a moot point .

there is never going to a situation where bynum scores on lets say joel pryzbilla and they are going to grant his team less than 2 points because joel sucks.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:54 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodey View Post
This is the same as saying "Well, if Wilt had Russell's teammates, he would have won more" in an argument to try to diminish that Russell was a better winner than Wilt.

You can play this argument all you want that goes like this. "No good player has EVER been available to the Bulls. Because if they were, the Bulls would have made the deal. Paxson hasn't done something, because there truly has never been anything that could be done."

Offering this as an excuse for him NOT making deals isn't the same as him MAKING DEALS. So, if your point is that of all of the non-active GMs, he's not the worst, because you have excuses for him not acting or you want to play "we don't know" .. that's fine, but that's not the same as him actually swinging good deals like a McCloskey, Buford, Kupchak, Krause, Auerbach, Ainge and Dumars. You're just giving me reasons he's not the worst of the other guys who aren't in that group. Please realize that. Your argument, if I grant you every last part of it, is an argument as to why he's "NOT BAD" not as to why he's actually affirmatively good.

"Kobe Bryant didn't score like Michael and have the role Michael had in 6 titles because (insert excuses or 'things we can't know about') is an argument for why Kobe isn't worse than Michael by some degree. It can never be used as an argument that he's better.

Pro Paxson arguments are a lot like pro Wilt Chamberlain arguments.



But you can't have it both ways. If Deng "just isn't that good" then Paxson has to be a terrible awful chump piece of mediocre crap for signing him to that deal. He can't be a "guy that just isn't desirable to the rest of the league" also be 70 mill desirable to Paxson and all of his chump fans who love that mediocre pile of crap that is Deng so much, and have Paxson not be an idiot for signing him.

Remember, before you reply about how I want it both ways. I never said Deng was good. Iguodala just isn't good either. Neither of them will be remembered by anyone in 20 years for anything ever.

The point is that Philly found a way with assets a lot worse than us. You addressed Deng. You did not address Deng plus Gibson or the Charlotte pick or even a Noah-centered trade.

Good GMs go out and make it happen. They get Howard when Howard was supposed to be gift wrapped for Brooklyn. They get Scottie Pippen for Olden Polynice. They don't hand out almost 30 million to two pieces of dung like Boozer and Deng.
If you want to argue against strawmen that's fine, but please don't quote my post when you do... I had to read that whole thing on my phone just to find out it was entirely unrelated to my post, or at least any reasonable interpretation of my post
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Originally Posted by yodurk View Post
Look, I agree Bynum is better than anyone on the team sans Rose. I never said he wasn't.

The question here is not does he make the team better, it is whether he will even be here in a year when Rose is actually...you know, playing again.
Here is where we start on the absurd train. Okay, so you acknowledge he's better, but he could leave. When is that not the case? You're not going to see players like Bynum on the free agent market as unrestricted free agents very often if ever. It's more likely that you're going to have to trade for a guy and then show that YOU CAN GET HIM TO WANT to stay with you.

My god. He could leave? Really? That's the best you have? The "don't leave the house because you could get killed by a truck as you're getting in your car" line of argument?

What's better? Bynum with the potential to leave, or guys like Noah, Deng or Boozer STAYING when they won't ever be the #2 on a title team? I'll take Bynum and then hope my GM can make a damn sale.

And that's what it goes back to. How does Paxson provide value as a GM? He doesn't make great draft picks. There are no Joe Dumars with picks in the mid teens on this team. He doesn't fleece other teams in trades to uncover hidden gem stars. And, he can't make a sale. To the point that is, "well, Bynum may be good, but he could leave (because our stooge GM can't get him to want to stay)."

Finally it brings us once again to a fan base ruled by fear since the dark days of Krause. Let's say we trade Deng and Gibson or Deng and the Charlotte pick and then Bynum bolts. If I'm a GM, and that's the worst case scenario, I'm jumping for joy to make this deal! The chance to have cap room, have Rose as my #1 and Noah as my #3, and for it then to make sense to amnesty Boozer with Deng's money already gone? I'm jumping for it. Because I'm not afraid to have Derrick freaking Rose, cap room and no feeling that I HAVE to sign anyone, because Deng's money doesn't already have us so close to the cap anymore, since he's gone now.

But not this fan base. We are made to feel that not only COULD we be left with nothing, but we're made to feel as if this is the most likely result! And then we're going to become the 2002 Bulls again for infinity if we somehow are so risky and irresponsible as to get rid of the Dalai Deng.

[quote[And if he re-signs, you have zero reservation about Bynum's injury history for a guy who demand a max contract? For all the people who hate Boozer around here, I do not see how those same people would be willing to absorb the same risk of him missing significant time.[/quote]

I'll second someone else. If both players are healthy, Bynum is a championship #2 and Boozer never will sniff that. The problem with Boozer isn't injury. It's that he sucks when he's healthy. Bynum is one of the top 20 or so players in the league when healthy.

Quote:
All this for a guy who, while better than Deng and Boozer, is not extensively better the way people like to say. His value is inflated b/c he is the #2 player at the weakest position in the league. All things considering I'm just not a huge fan of the idea, sorry.
Once again, not getting it.

Andrew Bynum is significantly better than Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer.

Luol Deng's PER this year was 14.1. That's below average. Andrew Bynum posted a 22.9 at age 24. And he wasn't some anomaly. He wasn't a guy whose PER was only high because he played low minutes. He played 35 MPG. He's a career 56.6% FG shooter. That's insane for a guy who handles rock as much as he does in the post.

Your center reasoning is the same basketball dumb I've been reading from Bulls fans for years. "There aren't a lot of good centers" offered up as a reason why you wouldn't want one. If there is a position right next to the basket, a position whose created inequities controls so much of the postseason, where there aren't that many good players. That means I WANT ONE MORE THAN EVER!

Look at this list just in the last 13 years

1999 - David Robinson #2 Center in PER
2000 - Shaquille O'neal #1 Center in PER
2001 - Shaquille O'neal #1 Center in PER
2002 - Shaquille O'neal #1 Center in PER
2003 - Tim Duncan (who basically functions as a center at 6'11" 260, can do everything elite centers can do) 3rd in the league in PER
2004 - Ben Wallace #1 Center in Defensive Rating
2005 - Tim Duncan #2 player in league in PER
2006 - Shaquille O'neal #2 center in the league in PER
2007 - Tim Duncan #4 player in the league in PER
2008 - Kendrick Perkins #1 center in defensive rating
2009 - Pau Gasol #2 post player in the league in PER - also starts with Bynum for ridiculous 1-2 post punch. No center ranks ahead of Gasol in PER and he's 7'0" 255
2010 - Same
2011 - Tyson Chandler #2 center in DPOY voting. Wins the following season
2012 - Bosh plays center, is a massive mismatch for Perkins because Perkins can't score.

So, whether it's offensively or defensively, one thing is clear. Centers and C/Fs like Duncan and Gasol matter, they matter BIG TIME and they do affect late post season series.

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I believe there will be better opportunities to be bold, and also the Rose recovery does not strike me as the best time to take a huge risk like this. If it was a no-brainer decision like trading for Dwight (w/ an extension in place), then sure make the move. If not, what the hell else are we supposed to do this upcoming season without our franchise player.
How about being ready for 2013-14? No. Instead, make no moves so that we can hear all of the excuses in 2014 like "well, this is Rose's first full year back. THIS year was the year we had to get ready." When we could be doing it now.

I know you, like jnr, dreams that this team is going to come back in 2014 as they were constituted in 2011 and contend. Not close.

What the trade of Howard to LA should have made clear, is that the 2011 Bulls core, aged by 3 years, has zero chance to sniff a title in 2014. I know you and Paxson don't know it. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be known.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:51 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Why? Because they walked away from an asinine deal for a mediocre backup center?
And have only comitted money to two guys past one season--Hinrich and Belinelli (with team option). And we only have both of them for two seasons.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:56 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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To the point that is, "well, Bynum may be good, but he could leave (because our stooge GM can't get him to want to stay)."
Bynum is going to get a max contract. Other than giving him the max contract, what do you expect Gar Forman to do to "get him to want to stay?" Maybe give him a pretty kitten?

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I know you, like jnr, dreams that this team is going to come back in 2014 as they were constituted in 2011 and contend. Not close.

1. That's not an accurate representation of my viewpoint in the least.
2. Why do you bring me up in posts where we're not even having a discussion together? It's weird.

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Old 08-13-2012, 11:04 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

Hoodey, would you rather:

A) Trade Deng, Taj, and the Charlotte pick for Bynum and Richardson this year
B) Wait and try to S&T for Bynum next offseason to a five or six-year deal
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:56 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Re: I love how Philly got Bynum

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Here come the excuses and apologies.

We had an all star player I would have been HAPPY to give up for Bynum. Luol Deng - who frankly SUCKS relative to what Bynum brings to the championship level of basketball.

Best part, if you don't re-sign Bynum, what are you afraid of? That without Deng you're not going to be able to sign anyone to play with Derrick Rose? Are we going to become the 2002 Bulls if we trade for Bynum and he signs elsewhere?
Deng is nowhere near the level of A.I. You would probably have to through in Noah or another good name into the pot. No team is going to want Boozer and his contract.
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