Hoodey

Are you really going to play disingenuous ignorance here? As if sales is not a big part of a GM job? First, yes, I'd give him a max contract. Second, yeah, you get him to want to stay by selling him on his role in Chicago and on everything a GM should be able to sell here. It's a great city, with a franchise with the 3rd most rings ever, and the whole "Jordan threat" shouldn't be a factor to a guy like Bynum because he's not a guy trying to be that Jordan-type figure like a Lebron or Kobe have been. Bynum is a true center who may be the second best player on some great title teams, maybe the best player on some decent title teams - a big maybe. He's not trying to be MJ. So you sell him all of that. Why is that so hard?

Yes. I do realize there are a few of you who want to walk and talk like a duck, and then whine and cry when someone calls you a duck. Going to tell me you're not a Pax supporter now?

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

Hoodey

Well wait a minute now. I would not have traded both Gibson AND the Charlotte pick with Deng. It would have been one or the other, or maybe one or the other with Noah. I might have sweetened it with the rights to Mirotic, whose style of ball (finesse 3-4 tweener foreigner) has never impacted championship basketball in any real way.

Now, if the choice is what you're saying it is, I'd pick whichever got it done. I'd of course be mad after not doing it now, because now you're 0-for-1 with one more shot. But if you're asking if I will be a fan of the regime, whoever it is, if we do a deal next summer - sure.

Am I convinced we will? No. The whole underlying problem here is that Paxson loves tweener forwards and combo guards. If Bynum was 6'10" 235 with no offensive game and he just ran around like a circus clown and made mean faces, I'm convinced Paxson would have murdered and pillaged entire cities to get him. He would literally not have been able to run fast enough.

But Bynum can score, and Paxson hates that. He also hates true centers who have any offensive ability at all. I'm convinced he doesn't WANT players like Bynum.

Now, if you're asking if I'll take hats off if Paxson does the deal next summer? Sure. i'd love to get Bynum on this team any time.

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

e-monk

poor Robert Horry....

Hoodey

Two questions..

1. Robert Horry is a foreigner? Crazy.
2. Is that what Paxson is hanging on Mirotic? That he'll be a low impact fringe starter who can hit a big shot if you drop Shaq or Duncan in the post and feed him open threes? Wow. Not very promising.

And I can almost bet you Mirotic is no Horry.

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

Hoodey

Fine! You're telling me Noah, who you don't need if you get Bynum anyway, and the Charlotte pick is not a better offer than Iguodala?

Deng isn't good. But come on man. Iguodala has been a disappointment too.

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

jnrjr79

It's not hard. The whole point is Bynum already knows all this. You're not talking about selling the guy to sign here as a free agent moving over from another team. Sure, in that instance you might need to outline Chicago's advantages. What you're talking about is re-signing a guy who has already played here for a year. He already has formed his own opinion about whether Chicago is a "great city," he knows it has the "3rd most rings ever" (also a great slogan for a crappy foam finger souvenir), and he's aware of the existence of Michael Jordan.

I'm not sure you could sell a 1997 Toyota Camry with that super awesome sales pitch.

But hey, I'll stick by my pretty kitty cat idea! Yay kittens!



1. Stop being a jerk with language like "whine and cry." Or don't. But it's really irritating, immature, and counterproductive. If you want that to be your hallmark, have at it, I suppose.

2. Gar Forman is the GM, but continue with the passive aggressiveness if that's what makes you happy.

3. There are enough people here actually expressing their own opinions such that you do not need to speak for them. Please stick to one side of the conversation, if you care at all about intellectual honesty and/or integrity.

4. I could give two you-know-whats as to whether John Paxson remains employed by the Chicago Bulls. I'd be perfectly happy to see a front office shakeup. But, to act like a new GM is going to solve the problem is foolish. Increasingly, due to the phenomenon of the max contract, elite players are underpaid relative to their actual market value (while scrubs are overpaid). As long as the max contract exists, so will "superteams" wherein stars are consolidated. To build a perennial champion, I fear you must assemble one of these superteams. So, I'm only really interested in solutions that further that end. If you think the VP of Basketball Operations is what's stopping the Bulls from having a superteam (and not, say Reinsdorf's luxury tax aversion, Chicago being a less desirable place to live than NY, Miami, or LA, or any myriad other factors), then by all means fire the guy.

jnrjr79

Tell that to Mark Cuban.

As evidenced by what, with respect to tweener forwards?


You mean figuratively.

You destroy any shred of credibility you might otherwise have when you say things as ridiculous as this. I realize there's an element of hyperbole at work here, but this claim has absolutely zero merit. The utter silliness of the claim, though, certainly does shed light on your irrationality on this particular topic.

Rhyder

I was not implying that you would, but I think Deng + Gibson + Chicago first pick is less than Iguodala, Harkelis, and Philly first rounder. I swapped in the Charlotte pick over ours to make it more equitable.

Me, I'd rather not lose assets for the sake of losing assets on a one year rental. To me, that means we will be stuck with Rose + Love + role players. If we keep assets, we can work out a S&T for D12, Bynum, Harden, etc. We have a lot more options.

I'm not saying Bynum would walk had we traded for him. I'm just not willing to put all of our eggs in the Bynum will sign else we only have UFA as our last remaining option bucket. We can still go after him next year, and we probably would not have needed him this year anyways.

e-monk

1)the only thing he's not from your original description is a foriegner
2)what does this have to do with your contention that a 3-4 finesse tweener never played a hand in winning a title

in case you're wondering, this is the statement that made me realize that you dont know anything about nba basketball

Hoodey

Oh wow, an establishment Bulls fan deciding that they are right because after all, they ARE themselves, and therefore they must be right? Awesome.

You don't like my selling points. Well guess what, I do like them. Don't try to argue that sales aren't a part of this so that you can play your whole "hey, what can Paxson do here? It's all external" line of argumentation.

Sales is a big part of this. How valued you make someone feel, how much "love" you show them, getting out in front of it as soon as possible with a max deal and letting a player know where someone is on the pecking order and then saying "hey, the Lakers are full, the Clippers are over the cap, the Knicks, whole a big market team, good luck there, the Heat are full. Where would you rather be but here, for the reasons outlined" is absolutely better than giving someone a kitten

From the guy who just mocked the approach of sales by a GM with an offer to give Bynum a kitty cat. Must be nice to be the guy who happens to be friends with whoever gave you your powers lol. I mean, making the rules and deciding who does and doesn't have to follow them must be nice huh?

Just like Jed Hoyer is the GM of the Cubs right? But I'm sure he tells Theo what is going to happen with player personnel and Theo just sits there and says "please dictate more to me."

Paxson and Forman both suck. Paxson sucks, I blame him, he is Forman's boss. But if you'd really like me to tackle Forman as a solo entity, he sucks too.

Yawn

If you have one superstar, and we do, you have the makings of a superteam. Old Kobe and Howard are not better than Rose and Bynum to me. So if we get a guy close to old Gasol, we're there.

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

jnrjr79

What is an "establishment Bulls fan"? The remainder of what you said is simply incoherent, but I'm interested in knowing what that term means to you.

It's not that I don't like your points. It's just that the things you identified are all known already to an existing Bulls player. I'm not saying there's no salesmanship involved at all, but retaining a player is going to involve mostly considerations other than whether the GM tells you how much the Art Institute kicks ass. A max salary is a max salary. Chicago's tax situation, weather, marketing opportunities, etc. are all basically outside the control of the GM. The GM basically has control over one thing: the product on the floor. That's less a sales pitch and more of a performance metric. Results speak louder than words.

Ooh, tell me more about these "powers" I have! Sounds nifty! Do I get a cape?

I don't follow the Cubs, as I'm a Sox person, but ok.


We only have limited information on where the Paxson/Forman responsibilities break down. Your constant focusing on Paxson, though, betrays some weird animus on your end. In any event, we do know that Forman, and not Paxson, is the guy with the duties to interface with the players themselves, where Paxson is more behind-the-scenes. So, all your invective about salesmanship should rightly be pointed at Forman rather than Paxson, but you ignore this for some unstated reason.

Maybe consider a nap?



By your logic, you also have the "makings" of a superteam simply by having an NBA franchise.

Also, you seem to ignore that the Lakers have Gasol and Nash in addition to Howard and Kobe. It's not just a 2-element superteam.

I agree with the general notion that 1 additional star-level player (ideally to replace Boozer, but various permutations could work) is what's necessary. I have no idea, though, how the Bulls plan to go about acquiring that person, though the oft-discussed "consolidation trade" for a discontented star is probably the most likely scenario.

Dornado

Lamar Odom was a finesse 3/4, no? Toni Kukoc? He even fits the odd foreigner requirement

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Hoodey

Okay we actually appear to be on the same page in this narrow subtopic. If you're against Kevin Love, well, you're a lot smarter than some of the Bulls fans I read and talk to, and I applaud that.

Who is D12? I don't keep up with nicknames. I would like a S&T for Bynum or maybe Harden. You need a lot more out of the rest of your team if it's Harden though.

So, is it next year or bust? How patient will you be about a move?

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.

jnrjr79

That's Howard.

Hoodey

First, I don't have time to go through all of these posts right now, but someone brought up Cuban, implying Dirk.

Uh, pretty sure Dirk is a 7'0" 245 lb. four. If he's a tweener in any direction, and I'm not saying he is, it's a 5, not a 3.

The problem with Dirk is, for every Dirk, there are so many Darkos, Bargnanis, etc. Possibly more than any other type of player. The miss rate is pretty high.

Lamar Odom was considered to be one of the top talents to ever come out of high school. I mean, qualitatively, is that what you guys are alleging? You're claiming that this guy is as good as the European Magic (Kukoc) or Lamar Odom (whose natural talent was far greater than even what he did).

The fact is, for all of the claims of how good foreign players were and how they were going to "change the game" that I heard around the 2007 Finals, we have not seen the second wave. We already had Dirk, Gasol, etc. by then. Who has come around from Europe since then? Ricky Rubio? Who else? Certainly no one who will ever approach Dirk or Gasol's level.

So yes, criticizing that type of player as if they might not work when they're foreign (again responding to many posts at once) is relevant.

Additionally, Kukoc, Odom, Horry, as good as these guys were at times, they never threatened to be title #2s, and anyone who is not threatening to be that should be on the trading block today - cause that's what we need.

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I'm just here to talk about basketball. Feel free to exchange ideas with me, disagree or debate. I'm not interested in what you think of me as a person and/or large posts about this. Debate the ideas, or don't. If you have something about me like a really weird post of a link of me on the radio, just PM me.