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Old 01-15-2013, 11:48 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

This is the beginning of a long anti Kevin Love pre-emptive strike.

2012 Miami Heat - Lebron James 53.1, Dwyane Wade 49.7
2011 Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki 51.7, Jason Terry 45.1
2010 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant 45.6, Pau Gasol 53.6
2009 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant 46.7, Pau Gasol 56.7
2008 Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce 46.4, Kevin Garnett 53.6
2007 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 54.6, Tony Parker 52.0
2006 Miami Heat - Dwyane Wade 49.5, Shaquille O'neal 60.0
2005 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 49.6, Tony Parker 48.2
2004 Detroit Pistons - Richard Hamilton 45.5, Chauncey Billups 39.4
2003 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 51.3, Tony Parker 46.4
2002 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.9, Kobe Bryant 46.9
2001 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.2, Kobe Bryant 46.4
2000 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.4, Kobe Brant 46.8
1999 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 49.5, David Robinson 50.9
1998 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 46.5, Scottie Pippen 44.7
1997 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 48.6, Scottie Pippen 47.4
1996 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 49.5, Scottie Pippen 46.3
1995 Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon 51.7, Clyde Drexler 50.6
1994 Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon 52.8, Otis Thorpe 56.1
1993 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 49.5, Scottie Pippen 47.3
1992 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 51.9, Scottie Pippen 50.6
1991 Chicago Bullls - Michael Jordan 53.9, Scottie Pippen 52.0
1990 Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas 43.8, Joe Dumars 48.0
1989 Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas 46.4, Joe Dumars 50.5
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

I'm disappointed in Chauncey.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

This is the beginning of a long anti Kevin Love pre-emptive strike.

2012 Miami Heat - Lebron James 53.1, Dwyane Wade 49.7
2011 Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki 51.7, Jason Terry 45.1
2010 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant 45.6, Pau Gasol 53.6
2009 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant 46.7, Pau Gasol 56.7
2008 Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce 46.4, Kevin Garnett 53.6
2007 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 54.6, Tony Parker 52.0
2006 Miami Heat - Dwyane Wade 49.5, Shaquille O'neal 60.0
2005 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 49.6, Tony Parker 48.2
2004 Detroit Pistons - Richard Hamilton 45.5, Chauncey Billups 39.4
2003 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 51.3, Tony Parker 46.4
2002 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.9, Kobe Bryant 46.9
2001 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.2, Kobe Bryant 46.4
2000 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'neal 57.4, Kobe Brant 46.8
1999 San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan 49.5, David Robinson 50.9
1998 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 46.5, Scottie Pippen 44.7
1997 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 48.6, Scottie Pippen 47.4
1996 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 49.5, Scottie Pippen 46.3
1995 Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon 51.7, Clyde Drexler 50.6
1994 Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon 52.8, Otis Thorpe 56.1
1993 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 49.5, Scottie Pippen 47.3
1992 Chicago Bulls - Michael Jordan 51.9, Scottie Pippen 50.6
1991 Chicago Bullls - Michael Jordan 53.9, Scottie Pippen 52.0
1990 Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas 43.8, Joe Dumars 48.0
1989 Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas 46.4, Joe Dumars 50.5
1988 Los Angeles Lakers - Byron Scott 52.7, James Worthy 53.1
1987 Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson 52.2, James Worthy 53.9
1986 Boston Celtics - Larry Bird 49.6, Kevin McHale 57.4
1985 Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 59.9, Magic Johnson 56.1
1984 Boston Celtics - Larry Bird 49.2, Robert Parish 54.6
1983 Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone 50.1, Julius Erving 51.7
1982 Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 57.9, Jamaal Wilkes 52.5
1981 Boston Celtics - Larry Bird 47.8, Robert Parish 54.5
1980 Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 60.4, Jamaal Wilkes 53.5

I consider the 1980 season to be sort of the beginning of the modern, though not hyper-modern.. era.

Kevin Love is shooting 35.2% this year and his career FG% is 44.8. Derrick Rose's last FG% (2011-12) was 43.5% and his career FG% is 46.4%.

Zero of the above NBA champions had their leading scorers shoot below 43.5% for one and 35.2% for the other.

As far as career FG% for Rose and Love, only the 04 Pistons had two guys shoot below those numbers and the 98 Bulls were about exactly the same.

And therein lies the problem. Rose is the superstar we have. He isn't a superstar center who shoots 57% or even a superstar swingman who shoots 49.5% like Wade or Jordan at times. He's a PG who is a low percentage scorer for a superstar.

Therefore, it would be a massive mistake to pair him with a PF whose FG% is awful. With Rose, we need a guy like Cousins (whose FG% is low now, but who is young and has the size/explosiveness combination to be coached into a nice percentage). I also liked Andrew Bynum.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Once rose's game gets rounded out I'd assume he'd be in the upper echelon of efficient guards, no magic Johnson, but no Allen Iverson either.


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Old 01-17-2013, 05:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

Well, by that logic, Chicago may want to look into dealing Derrick Rose...
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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Well, by that logic, Chicago may want to look into dealing Derrick Rose...
Not really. My point, and the point that anyone with the basic functions of the missing link could clearly see... is that you can win with one leading scorer who isn't a high percentage guy. Trying to do it with two? Much less likely? Trying to do it with two guys who have the most recent FG% of Derrick Rose and Kevin Love? Zero times in the last 33 seasons.

But people decide, "hey, I like this guy, and hey, I also like that guy, they'd make a great duo," without thinking about FACTS like the above.

You can win with Derrick Rose, but look at Kobe. Kobe's FG%s were pretty similar. And yet he always won a championship with guys who shot over 50% as the other leading scorer. When Bynum was a baby and Gasol was not yet on the team, do you find it a bit odd that Kobe wasn't winning sh*t, including not beating a Phoenix team that never won sh*t in the playoffs...?

The FG% of the other Laker leading scorer in every Bryant championship season:

2010 - 53.6
2009 - 56.7
2002 - 57.9
2001 - 57.2
2000 - 57.4

And that's Kobe freaking Bryant. Kind of arrogant to think that Rose can do what Kobe did without what Kobe had? You don't actually think he's as good as Kobe Bryant? Do you? I'm honestly begging you to say yes and I personally despise Kobe.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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Not really. My point, and the point that anyone with the basic functions of the missing link could clearly see... is that you can win with one leading scorer who isn't a high percentage guy. Trying to do it with two? Much less likely? Trying to do it with two guys who have the most recent FG% of Derrick Rose and Kevin Love? Zero times in the last 33 seasons.

But people decide, "hey, I like this guy, and hey, I also like that guy, they'd make a great duo," without thinking about FACTS like the above.

You can win with Derrick Rose, but look at Kobe. Kobe's FG%s were pretty similar. And yet he always won a championship with guys who shot over 50% as the other leading scorer. When Bynum was a baby and Gasol was not yet on the team, do you find it a bit odd that Kobe wasn't winning sh*t, including not beating a Phoenix team that never won sh*t in the playoffs...?

The FG% of the other Laker leading scorer in every Bryant championship season:

2010 - 53.6
2009 - 56.7
2002 - 57.9
2001 - 57.2
2000 - 57.4

And that's Kobe freaking Bryant. Kind of arrogant to think that Rose can do what Kobe did without what Kobe had? You don't actually think he's as good as Kobe Bryant? Do you? I'm honestly begging you to say yes and I personally despise Kobe.
Couple of short thoughts here:

1) You're cherry-picking a specific player because "the other Laker leading scorer" was always the best post-up center in the league(you never hear anyone mention that Kobe's never made it out of the first round without an all-star center). Those guys are naturally going to have higher shooting percentages than almost any other type of player.

2) Raw shooting percentage of the top two players is a piss-poor metric around which to judge a team. The 96-98 Bulls didn't have either of their top two players top 50% shooting in any season. The 2007 Spurs had both guys well above 50%. That doesn't tell you anything about how those teams would fare against each other.

3) Those "three quarters for a dollar" trades have a knack for heavily favoring the team getting the best player. How many teams that traded multiple role-players for a perennial all-stars came out regretting the trade? This brings me to point number

4) Love's going to be available at a steep discount in two years. Like, "Boozer's expiring contract, that Euro forward you all seem to like so much, and a draft pick or two" discount. If your argument is that Chicago shouldn't gut the team next month to pick up Love, I agree. If your arguing that Chicago should steer clear of the eventual Kevin Love firesale when he forces his way out of Minny, I strongly disagree.

5) Two years ago, at age 22, Love averaged 20ppg shooting a very respectable 47%. Last year his field goal attempts jumped up by 5 a game to almost 20 shots a night. His percentages, predictably, dropped. On a better team, where he's shooting less, as he enters his prime? I'd wager he becomes a much more efficient scorer.

6) Why does Chicago have to stop getting better with Kevin Love?



Ultimately, whether or not they should trade for him depends entirely on what the trade market for him is. If they can pick him up on the cheap, of course they should trade for him. If Minnesota's asking for everything and then some, you obviously walk away. It's kind of pointless to have this conversation without knowing what Minnesota's going to want in return.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

I am neither pro nor anti Kevin Love....but just a few observations:

- I am more concerned about Love on the defensive end than the offensive end. His defense is terrible, arguably worse than Boozer. But like Boozer he at least grabs tons of rebounds.

- Love wasn't right physically this year from what I heard. His FG% from this year I'm sure is at least partially reflective of that. Might be better to put a lower weighting on that stat and rely more on prior years.

- I am however a bit concerned with Love's "oft injured" record piling up.

- Why aren't you using True Shooting Percentage (TS%) or at least effective field goal percentage (eFG%)? TS% takes into account efficiency garnered through 3-pointers and free throws. Love gets alot of his points off both 3's and FTs. Last year he averaged 26 ppg off 19 shots per game which is actually very good (56.8 TS%, and nearly 60 TS% the year before). For reference, Dwight Howard had around a 56% TS% last year and 60% for much of his career. Kobe is always below 56%. Chris Paul is lauded for his efficiency and he's always in that 56-60% range. As is Pau Gasol.

- Offensively I would think Love's 3-pt ability is a natural fit w/ Rose. And it could open the lane for Noah to get offensive putbacks. Just a thought.

Overall I have my concerns with Love's true star impact and his defensive abilities, but he definitely would make an intriguing running mate w/ Derrick.

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Old 01-26-2013, 09:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

kevin love is fool's gold.

nowhere in the history of nba basketball has a player such as love lead to a title

at the end of the season he is what gets you beat ,

i cant remember the last poor starting defensive big on a championship team, usually its at least a top 5 defensive big and another good defensive guy,

dirk is probably the weakest big defensively to win in my lifetime ...but by the time he won a title he was decent defensively , no longer a weak spot.

in addition love is rather pedestrian for a big efficiency wise for a scorer on a title team, its even worse when considering he is generally a finisher , not so much used as a facilitator to create offense for others

there is just no way a team can aspire to great heights with that going against them.

with rose who is also rather avg. efficiency wise its pretty much a given you are going to need a high efficiency big who can play some defense, and that is not love.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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kevin love is fool's gold.

nowhere in the history of nba basketball has a player such as love lead to a title

at the end of the season he is what gets you beat ,

i cant remember the last poor starting defensive big on a championship team, usually its at least a top 5 defensive big and another good defensive guy,

dirk is probably the weakest big defensively to win in my lifetime ...but by the time he won a title he was decent defensively , no longer a weak spot.

in addition love is rather pedestrian for a big efficiency wise for a scorer on a title team, its even worse when considering he is generally a finisher , not so much used as a facilitator to create offense for others

there is just no way a team can aspire to great heights with that going against them.

with rose who is also rather avg. efficiency wise its pretty much a given you are going to need a high efficiency big who can play some defense, and that is not love.
Chris Bosh and Shane Battier. Nowhere does that frontcourt duo scream top defensive bigs.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:10 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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Chris Bosh and Shane Battier. Nowhere does that frontcourt duo scream top defensive bigs.
lebron?
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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lebron?
On the wings sure, as a big interior guy? No.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:48 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Top two scorers on title teams - and their FG%

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On the wings sure, as a big interior guy? No.
lebron actually plays most of his time at the 4 this season and outside of the center spot he's elite everywhere else.

also according to 82games.com the heat defend best when he is at the 4.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12MIA9.HTM#bypos
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