Rhyder

Much more at each link and both are good reads.

On Jimmy Butler:
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...iss-army-knife

On Thibodeau and the Defense:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...est-perfection

RollWithEm

That defense article is great. I'm surprised no one had posted it here sooner.

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Dornado

Nice finds Rhyder, thanks for posting.

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thebizkit69u

Just start Butler over Hamilton until we find a legit starting 2 guard. I don't know why Thibs continues to start Hamilton, he doesn't help defensively and offensively it looks like hes done.

jnrjr79

At this point, there's a decent chance Butler is the "legit starting 2 guard."

thebizkit69u

I just can't call a shooting guard who can't shoot a legit 2 guard. Jimmy is a nice player, but he needs to improve a lot before hes the future 2 guard.

jnrjr79

Ehh, there have been plenty of successful slasher-type shooting guards. That criticism doesn't do much for me, though obviously you need improvement there. My biggest concern would be how much 3 point shooting the team would get from other sources, as you do need it for spacing.

thebizkit69u

Well he isn't an elite slasher or even a competent offensive player yet. Hes not a legit 2 guard but he is getting better.

jnrjr79

7.2 points, 3.5 rebounds, and 1 assist per game shooting 49% from the field and 87% from the line certainly suggests a guy who is indeed a "competent offensive player" if given starter-level minutes.

thebizkit69u

He had a hot month, his numbers are coming back down to earth. Like I said before hes going to need to show that he can perform like that consistently before we can label him a legit starter on a title contender.

King Joseus

I don't think jnrjr79 was trying to call him that quite yet, he was more arguing the "competent offensive player" bit. I'm in agreement with both of you.

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jnrjr79

Right. I'm far from arguing Jimmy B is an All-Star. The Bulls don't really need him to be one. Biz notes that Jimmy's numbers are falling back to earth. Well, sure. He put up big #s when Deng was out with a hammy, which gave Jimmy big minutes. He's putting up smaller numbers now that his role has diminished. That's to be expected.

At this point, all I am really looking at is who you want to slot in at the 2 guard spot next year (assuming no major roster moves are made other than contracts coming off the books as scheduled). I will grant you the sample size is quite small, but isn't it at least plausible that given what we've seen from Jimmy B, he would give you more production out of the 2 spot that you've seen from Bogans and Rip in the past few seasons? That would certainly be my expectation based on what I've seen of him this season.

The only issue I really have with a Rose/Jimmy/Deng/Boozer/Noah lineup is you have a lot of guys who can hit from mid-range, but no real lethal 3 point threats. That might create some spacing issues. One does expect Derrick has been shooting a million threes per day in his rehab process, so maybe he'll come back with improved ability in that department.

Defensively, a lineup with Jimmy at the 2 would be lights-out.

thebizkit69u

Actually they probably do. Let me clear it up though, if Jimmy is their future 2 guard, they sure as hell better hope that he can play like an Allstar if we are to compete for a title. Either that or pair Rose up with another star, we are short 1 impact player for a while now.

The numbers aren't the issue IMO, his FG% is below average the past 5 games. You can blame it on the minutes but over the past 5 games hes still averaging close to 29 mpg.

No doubt Jimmy can potentially give you more than those guys, but thats a really low bar that has been set.

Funny how a trade for Bargnani kinda helps this situation.

Yeah I agree, I still wonder why Rip starts ahead of Butler, but I think in a long series with Miami that Butler would give Wade a hell of a lot more problems than Rip would.

jnrjr79

I think we all agree the Bulls need a sufficient supporting cast next to Rose. I don't agree that All-Star production has to come from the 2 guard slot. Heck, this team already has 2 other current All-Stars, and one guy (Boozer) who apparently garnered close consideration for it. If the broader point is the Bulls could use more scoring punch next to Rose, that is certainly true. I just don't care what position it comes from, particularly. Jimmy is far from a finished product and it remains to be seen exactly how much of that he could bring. Right now, though, I would agree there isn't data to suggest he'll be an elite 2nd option. Absent a major trade, 2014 free agency and Mirotic are the only real options to add that element.


Numbers aren't the issue, but then you cite the numbers. I'm not sure what you're driving at. I agree he's come back to earth a bit since the hot streak, absolutely.

Fair enough. Bogans is certainly a low bar offensively. Rip, though, has been fairly competent this year. He looks a lot less productive due to his minutes limitation. Maybe we'll enjoy all that veteran savvy in the playoffs, but at the moment, I still find myself wishing Rip could be moved and Jimmy B could take over that slot.


Bargnani presents his own deficiencies, but I absolutely agree he would be a boon to spacing issues.


It's probably as simple as Rip was brought in to be the starting 2 guard, he's a really accomplished vet, and Thibs seems to trust vets a lot more than young guys. That, and vets are generally who win NBA championships. It was clear Thibs didn't trust Butler last season, but that seems to be changing. I would like to see GarPax take it out of Thibs' hands by moving Rip for a big body.

My $64,000 question though, is if Rip were moved, would Thibs actually start Bellinelli at the 2? It wouldn't shock me. I can see the argument for doing it from a spacing perspective, especially once Rose is back.

thebizkit69u

Fair enough, but Jimmy is not a starting caliber 2 guard on a title contending team with just 1 legit star player.

I should have said MINUTES aren't the issue, since he was still playing some good minutes. His FG% took a nose dive of late.


I guess, its disappointing that he keeps playing him since he basically buried Rad and Teaque on the bench for not playing D. Rip Honestly doesn't do much on either end of the floor, other than hit the occasional jumper and at this point in his career, its pretty damn obvious that Butler has a bigger impact on games than does Rip.