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**Chops** · 12-05-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rynobot!
Why compare assists when Wagner is startin at the two guard?

What else do you look at? Why compare them AT ALL if they play different positions? Why? Explain how Wagner just proved he is the better player? Explain that correctly, and I will concede.

The Krakken · 12-05-2002, 05:53 PM

Well done KC. Well done.

OZZY · 12-05-2002, 05:59 PM

Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way.

Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times.

Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!

Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....

**Damian Necronamous** · 12-05-2002, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OZZY!
Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way.

Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times.

Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!

Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....

I couldn't agree more with everything you just said.

**Jamel Irief** · 12-05-2002, 06:52 PM

That sequence where Juanny blocked Jay's lay-up and dunked on the other end was pretty nice. Wagner is by far the more athletic of the two.

**Chops** · 12-05-2002, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OZZY!
Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way.

Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times.

Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!

Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....

Jay Williams is a point guard, period. He hasn't played a single minute at the 2 all season. Saying that Wagner is better is impossible because not only do they play different positions, they play different roles. Wagner took 25 shots. Jay took 10. of course Wagner will score more by taking 15 more shots. Jay did what he needed to do and he did what he was asked to do. Wagner did as well.

**rynobot** · 12-05-2002, 08:09 PM

I think you got me wrong KC, I like both players very much, I actually like every player in the league. It is very hard or near impossible to compare Jay and Wagner to each other. Not only do they play a differnet position right now, they are in interily different schemes.

Jay Williams is stuck playing the triangle offense, where no one knows what they are doing, and if they know what they are doing they don't like it. Jay is very limited in what he gets to do in the offense, not only that he has to share time with Jamal Crawford and let Jalen handle the ball too. The triangle offense doesn't fit the Bulls right now, and definitly doesn't fit the style of Jay Williams. He is stuck trying to find a role, yes he's the point guard but in the triangle it doesn't guarntee that he will have control of the team.

Dajuan Wagner is playing a dream inviroment. Yes, he is only 6'3" but he is a scorer. He is a two guard, he was a two guard at Memphis too. He may someday be a point guard, but he has lots to learn untill he masters being a distrubuter. Since the Cavs lack a superstar scorer, he can fit that role. Wagner can score points, that is what he does best, yes right now he is shotting a low percentage, but remember he's been out all year. He also gets to the line alot just like his idiol AI who most people compare him to. Wagner unlike Iverson can nail the 3, and is a better shooter, atleast that is what I was told. Wagner has absolute freedom on this team.

If these two players were to switch teams, Jay Williams would probably be putting up 16pts, 7asts on the Cavs and Wagner would be scoring 15pts if he was getting any mins on the Bulls. I feel that Jay will be a great pro and eventually joins the likes of Davis, Miller and Marbury, whereas Wagner may be another Iverson, which I'm sure everyone has heard thousands of times already.

p · 12-05-2002, 08:47 PM

I've been a Dajuan Wagner fan ever since watching a college game when he was at Memphis, when they showed footage and the statlines from when he scored 100 points in a high school game... i was speechless... dayum, the guy must have some kahones if he knew damn well that he was going to try and humilate a team like that... DW for Rookie of the YEAR!!!

peace

**remy23** · 12-05-2002, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!
Jay Williams is a point guard, period. He hasn't played a single minute at the 2 all season. Saying that Wagner is better is impossible because not only do they play different positions, they play different roles. Wagner took 25 shots. Jay took 10. of course Wagner will score more by taking 15 more shots. Jay did what he needed to do and he did what he was asked to do. Wagner did as well.

Despite the fact both play different positions, you can say Dajuan is having a bigger impact. If you cannot say one player is better than the other because of positions, that would be like saying "I can't say Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell because they are different positions." Impossible to say? Hardly. The season is still young, thus you cannot conclude who is better. But for the short bit of the season thus far, it seems apparent (and maybe it will change down the road).

**RSP83** · 12-05-2002, 11:53 PM

What if.. you switch the team...
Juanny with the Bulls..
Jay with the Cavs...

wwooooww... it's going to be sooooooooo different...

whadya think ?

do u think Jay would be the same Jay ?
and would Juanny do the same thing? I have no doubt on Juanny's scoring ability (he'll be a superstar)... but... Juanny has to face the ol' triangle offense... and deal with Mr. Cartwright...
interesting... what about sharing the ball with Rose? hmmm...

but, it's only ...what if...

**RSP83** · 12-05-2002, 11:53 PM

however.. it's still interesting to think about ..

**Steez** · 12-06-2002, 12:58 AM

Wow, my first topic and the post is so hot!
I feel proud of myself lol...

I was wrong about Wagner, the guy is really doing great... so far, hes my co-rookie of the year with Yao Ming... both are doing great, except for Mings inconsistencent play.

**Chops** · 12-06-2002, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by remy23!

Despite the fact both play different positions, you can say Dajuan is having a bigger impact. If you cannot say one player is better than the other because of positions, that would be like saying "I can't say Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell because they are different positions." Impossible to say? Hardly. The season is still young, thus you cannot conclude who is better. But for the short bit of the season thus far, it seems apparent (and maybe it will change down the road).

I don't think you can say that DaJuan has had more impact. I think Jay has done what has been asked of him. Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell in almost everything. That isn't the case with Wagner and Williams. A better comparison might be Allen Iverson or Andre Miller? Well, do you want a guy throwing up a lot of shots? Or do you want someone to manage a game and get others involved on a consistent basis?

**Da Grinch** · 12-06-2002, 01:51 AM

Iverson is a former mvp, miller isn't in his class

and you can watch a 76er game then watch a clipper game it will be obvious that one of the players mentioned is a top 10 player in the league and the other is a good young point guard but definitely on a lower tier becuase no one will confuse him with a superstar

and as far as the bulls-cavs game it was also obvious who had the better game

cavs fans rejoice in a victory after about a month straight of losing and wags was a big reason why if you dont want to argue stats fine but impact often shows up in who won and why (statswise i dont feel either had that great a game)

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