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**Da Grinch** · 12-06-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!

One statement made, one statement over someone's head.

I wasn't comparing them as players, I was comparing their styles of play.

cute KC, but in this world of threads one only has to look back and see this comparison (originally from you by the way) was made because you said Wagner & williams cant be compared because the play different styles

which is of course wrong

just like you can compare iverson and miller

i got your point but apparently my response was a little too much for you

**Chops** · 12-07-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happygrinch!

cute KC, but in this world of threads one only has to look back and see this comparison (originally from you by the way) was made because you said Wagner & williams cant be compared because the play different styles

which is of course wrong

just like you can compare iverson and miller

i got your point but apparently my response was a little too much for you

No, I didn't say you can't compare their styles of play. I was pointing out that they are different players, so they should be analyzed differently. For instance, you aren't going to expect 30 shots from Andre Miller. And you aren't going to expect 15 assists from Allen Iverson. It is all relative. Get it?

**Da Grinch** · 12-07-2002, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!

No, I didn't say you can't compare their styles of play. I was pointing out that they are different players, so they should be analyzed differently. For instance, you aren't going to expect 30 shots from Andre Miller. And you aren't going to expect 15 assists from Allen Iverson. It is all relative. Get it?

saying wagner is better is impossible not only do they play different positions they have different roles-KC page 7 6th post

no its obvious to me that on page 6 you said they cant be compared because they play differently

but on page 8 you say they can

why the hostility? you are wrong and are contradicting yourself

instead of getting mad at me for voicing my opinion maybe you should be more clear in your thoughts and not be so wishy washy

you'll be better off

**Chops** · 12-07-2002, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by happygrinch!

saying wagner is better is impossible not only do they play different positions they have different roles-KC page 7 6th post

no its obvious to me that on page 6 you said they cant be compared because they play differently

but on page 8 you say they can

why the hostility? you are wrong and are contradicting yourself

instead of getting mad at me for voicing my opinion maybe you should be more clear in your thoughts and not be so wishy washy

you'll be better off

I think you need to understand the difference between style of play and who is the better player. I didn't say that they can't be compared because they play differently. I said because they play different positions, and they have different roles. You can't judge who the better player is. You can however, compare their styles of play. I don't know why you don't get that. It isn't contradicting at all.

One guy gets assists, one guy gets points. Who is the better player? It is impossible to tell, especially if they have different roles on their respective teams.

The Krakken · 12-07-2002, 08:24 PM

Makes perfect sense to me........

The Krakken · 12-07-2002, 08:38 PM

Dejaun Wagner
PS Min FGA-FGM 3PA-3PM FTA-FTM Off Reb Ast Stl Blk TO PF TP

G 38 6-17 0-2 6-7 0 0 7 0 0 2 2 18

J. Williams
G 32 6-11 0-3 2-4 1 5 6 1 0 1 2 14

Just to see who is wearing the tainted glasses in this thread, tell me what you think of tonights matchup, and comparison.

Who won this time???

**Da Grinch** · 12-08-2002, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!

I think you need to understand the difference between style of play and who is the better player. I didn't say that they can't be compared because they play differently. I said because they play different positions, and they have different roles. You can't judge who the better player is. You can however, compare their styles of play. I don't know why you don't get that. It isn't contradicting at all.

One guy gets assists, one guy gets points. Who is the better player? It is impossible to tell, especially if they have different roles on their respective teams.

well if you are going to go by points and assist today the bulls and cavs squared off again and wagner had more in both categories

and if you are going to go by roles on the team wagner in less games already seems to be counted on by the cavs than the bulls count on the williams

and i do understand the difference between different styles and being a different type player

tim duncan and shawn bradley have different styles of play, play different roles and different positions and none of this stops anybody from telling who is the better player(its duncan by the way )

i define better by whom gets more accomplished on a court and their positive impact . in the nba all the players are talented (especially the high picks)and could put up stats in right system and if the team choose to focus around them

you are wrong and are trying to justify you position but your reasons hold no water

**Chops** · 12-08-2002, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happygrinch!

well if you are going to go by points and assist today the bulls and cavs squared off again and wagner had more in both categories

and if you are going to go by roles on the team wagner in less games already seems to be counted on by the cavs than the bulls count on the williams

and i do understand the difference between different styles and being a different type player

tim duncan and shawn bradley have different styles of play, play different roles and different positions and none of this stops anybody from telling who is the better player(its duncan by the way )

i define better by whom gets more accomplished on a court and their positive impact . in the nba all the players are talented (especially the high picks)and could put up stats in right system and if the team choose to focus around them

you are wrong and are trying to justify you position but your reasons hold no water

Are you trying to say that the Wagner is to Williams , as Duncan is to Bradley? After a handful of games, you have come to that conclusion? The Cavs count on Wagner because they don't really have any veteran leadership. The Bulls have Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. The Cavs have Ricky Davis and the oft-injured Zydrunas Ilgauskas. The Bulls are in a position where they don't need to rely on Jay to score 20+ points per night. The Cavs need Wagner's scoring. Do you see the difference?

Yes, tonight Wagner had 4 more points and 1 more assist. He also played 6 more minutes (half a quarter) and took 6 more shots. If you want to talk about efficiency, Jay shot 54.5% from the field. Wagner shot 35.3%. Jay had 5 rebounds, Wagner had none.

Now, if you are gonna make a decision after less than 10 NBA games played by Wagner, that is your choice. Most others like to take the time to evaluate over a longer period of time.

**Da Grinch** · 12-08-2002, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!

Are you trying to say that the Wagner is to Williams , as Duncan is to Bradley? After a handful of games, you have come to that conclusion? The Cavs count on Wagner because they don't really have any veteran leadership. The Bulls have Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. The Cavs have Ricky Davis and the oft-injured Zydrunas Ilgauskas. The Bulls are in a position where they don't need to rely on Jay to score 20+ points per night. The Cavs need Wagner's scoring. Do you see the difference?

Yes, tonight Wagner had 4 more points and 1 more assist. He also played 6 more minutes (half a quarter) and took 6 more shots. If you want to talk about efficiency, Jay shot 54.5% from the field. Wagner shot 35.3%. Jay had 5 rebounds, Wagner had none.

Now, if you are gonna make a decision after less than 10 NBA games played by Wagner, that is your choice. Most others like to take the time to evaluate over a longer period of time.

lets see where to begin I'll guess i'll just answer it all in order

duncan compared to bradley anology was an extreme example to prove my point that any players can be compared

i thought it was fairly obvious but well ...maybe not in your case

you say the cavs need wagner's scoring more than the bulls need williams due to personel

well davis and ilgauskas actually avg. 37.7 points combined (marshall & rose avg. 38.0) so thats not exactly accurate now is it? especially when you consider they have miles(who has not played with wagner yet) and boozer( since he has begun starting) both of whom produce at a clip better than their bull counterparts (chandler and hassell) so as far as actual production the cavs would seem to be a deeper team scoringwise

and as far as veteran leadership goes every single player on both teams is older than wagner so i doubt the cavs are looking to him for that veteran leadership you speak of and there are a few repected vets on the cavs roster whom i think can draw from past experiences

also you brought up making statements based on a short amount of games

and if i'm not mistaken there is a poster running around with signiture that is quoting you making a judgement of williams being better than jamal crawford(not just better but saying crawford could never equal the game williams had against the nets) based off of a single game that he has not come close to duplicating

you'll say alot but your actions often contradict you

me on the other hand instead of trying to argue merely speak my mind

look down read the signature ...you should take the advice

**Chops** · 12-08-2002, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happygrinch!

lets see where to begin I'll guess i'll just answer it all in order

duncan compared to bradley anology was an extreme example to prove my point that any players can be compared

i thought it was fairly obvious but well ...maybe not in your case

LOL, nice comeback. I never said players can't be compared. You can compare Wagner and Williams all you want. However, you aren't going to come away with a conclusion on who is better at this stage in their careers.

Quote:

you say the cavs need wagner's scoring more than the bulls need williams due to personel

well davis and ilgauskas actually avg. 37.7 points combined (marshall & rose avg. 38.0) so thats not exactly accurate now is it? especially when you consider they have miles(who has not played with wagner yet) and boozer( since he has begun starting) both of whom produce at a clip better than their bull counterparts (chandler and hassell) so as far as actual production the cavs would seem to be a deeper team scoringwise

and as far as veteran leadership goes every single player on both teams is older than wagner so i doubt the cavs are looking to him for that veteran leadership you speak of and there are a few repected vets on the cavs roster whom i think can draw from past experiences

Scoring and veteran leadership, wrapped into one is what Rose and Marshall bring. They have been in the league longer, they have experience. Williams isn't counted on to take the same amount of shots. Wagner is, and that is evident in the sats.

"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southt...pro/081sd8.htm

Quote:

also you brought up making statements based on a short amount of games

and if i'm not mistaken there is a poster running around with signiture that is quoting you making a judgement of williams being better than jamal crawford(not just better but saying crawford could never equal the game williams had against the nets) based off of a single game that he has not come close to duplicating

you'll say alot but your actions often contradict you

me on the other hand instead of trying to argue merely speak my mind

look down read the signature ...you should take the advice

Crawford has had 3 years to prove himself. He has never come close to a triple-double. Williams had one in his 7th game. Do you see the difference in that comparison?

If you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, it is obvious that you are more intersted in thinking of "funny" one-liners than actually having a logical discussion. I'm done checking in on this thread.

**Da Grinch** · 12-09-2002, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC!

LOL, nice comeback. I never said players can't be compared. You can compare Wagner and Williams all you want. However, you aren't going to come away with a conclusion on who is better at this stage in their careers.

Scoring and veteran leadership, wrapped into one is what Rose and Marshall bring. They have been in the league longer, they have experience. Williams isn't counted on to take the same amount of shots. Wagner is, and that is evident in the sats.

"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southt...pro/081sd8.htm

Crawford has had 3 years to prove himself. He has never come close to a triple-double. Williams had one in his 7th game. Do you see the difference in that comparison?

If you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, it is obvious that you are more intersted in thinking of "funny" one-liners than actually having a logical discussion. I'm done checking in on this thread.

whether you realize it or not you already were judging williams abilities after 7 games making him out to be better than crawford over a game that has until otherwise proven is a fluke(since he hasn't gotten in double figures in rebounds or assist since that game)

also JC's to my knowledge has never gotten more than 31 min. in a game a big difference considering williams had 45 in his famous trip-double

and if memory serves a man named bumper johnson had a triple double in his 5th game (who is bumper johnson you ask a nobody thats who) so i'm going to say jay wil is going to need a little more than one lone game to prove himself

at least wagner has put together a string of solid performances which is something williams despite more time in the league has thus far failed to do

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