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SkywalkerAC · 02-23-2003, 10:27 PM

you think there's some kind of secret problem with white? work ethic? he seems to be developing quite nicely to me.

the nugz have a TON of lanky athletes and i don't quite see them all fitting together. of course moves are going to be made and players signed. then there's the draft of course.
i like what i see from a lot of these guys but they're still pretty raw and undersized. leaves lots of room for improvement of course...and i think they will.
the future should be bright for this team and i'm curious what changes and additions kiki will make. this is a decent collection of players but their current state is so unbelievably far from playoff calibre. i guess that's where cap room comes into play though.

**RSP83** · 02-23-2003, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Springsteen!

Okay, so if Rodney White was such a super prospect wouldn't you have expected the Pistons to keep hold of him and drop a lesser talent then Tayshaun Prince? My explaination makes more sense. I mean, why would a team drop someone who could be such a fantastic player, maybe an allstar, in favor or someone who basically plays the same position 3 /4 as White? I mean, Prince isn't really getting off the bench. Frankly, I don't think your "they didn't have room for him" makes a lot of sense. Gee, if they hadn't had room for him, why were they able to pick up Danny Manning in the middle of the season?

I'm going to disagree a bit with your athletic potential. I have read a lot of your posts, and you rate players extremely high if they can run fast, jump high etc. etc. However, it does not have to be the only building block. Plus, I think that it is universally overused as a indicator of someones potential. Like I said, and I've seen dozens of guys fall into the trap that if someone is a big jumper, he's going to be a great player one day in the NBA. It's analagous to those And1 guys. Because they have mad dribbles and crazy passing skills, people sometimes think they will be fantastic. Being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops.

1. Tayshaun Prince is a more develop player than Rodney White. Rodney White was an underclassmen, he wa a freshman when he entered the draft while Prince was a senior. A more develop player does not equal better players in terms of how are they going to do in the future. For White's case, he was traded to the Nuggets because the Pistons didn't need him. The Pistons is going after the championship, they need a more ready player to help them. So, Prince is a better option than White. Danny Manning? I don't know what the #$%# they are thinking, but it's obvious that they need a ready player. If the Pistons kept White in the team, then he's not going to get some burns at all behind Williamson and Curry. Isn't it a waste to keep White in that condition? the Pistons don't have time to develop White's talent.

2. I agree being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops. But, Wouldn't it be better if a player have both of them? You can teach fundamentals of basketball to them, but nobody can teach atlheticism.. its a gift. Players with excellent athletic ability have a better chance to be a very good basketball player. As they play more, they learn more about the game of basketball. no problem... MJ wasn't fundamentally sound when he first entered the league. He can't shoot very well, he relied too much on his athleticism. as he get older he learned more about the fundamentals.

**BEEZ** · 02-24-2003, 12:44 PM

I have to agree with the above post. The only knock on White was his horrendous defense, which he has picked up on and his fire. Personally if I wasa coach I would want someone like that on my team that shows this fire even though at times its only on the offensive side of the ball. Hes gotten alot better and for you to think he was'nt a steal. Lemme see what did Denver give up. mengke bateer and a 2nd rd draft pick. Thats a steal to me

NugzFan · 02-24-2003, 05:45 PM

i agree except for the prince vs white part. getting prince had nothing to do with letting white go because prince isnt doing anything.

Springsteen · 02-24-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSP83!

1. Tayshaun Prince is a more develop player than Rodney White. Rodney White was an underclassmen, he wa a freshman when he entered the draft while Prince was a senior. A more develop player does not equal better players in terms of how are they going to do in the future. For White's case, he was traded to the Nuggets because the Pistons didn't need him. The Pistons is going after the championship, they need a more ready player to help them. So, Prince is a better option than White. Danny Manning? I don't know what the #$%# they are thinking, but it's obvious that they need a ready player. If the Pistons kept White in the team, then he's not going to get some burns at all behind Williamson and Curry. Isn't it a waste to keep White in that condition? the Pistons don't have time to develop White's talent.

2. I agree being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops. But, Wouldn't it be better if a player have both of them? You can teach fundamentals of basketball to them, but nobody can teach atlheticism.. its a gift. Players with excellent athletic ability have a better chance to be a very good basketball player. As they play more, they learn more about the game of basketball. no problem... MJ wasn't fundamentally sound when he first entered the league. He can't shoot very well, he relied too much on his athleticism. as he get older he learned more about the fundamentals.

1. Yeah, the Prince comparison was just an example of how what Ozzy said wasn't the most plausible. I mean, Prince is a lower draft, and by all estimates a guy with "less upside", why would they keep a hold of him and not spend time with White, who, while a project could turn out to be solid. This makes even more sense in light of how Prince, as fundamentally sound as he is, isn't playing at all. You could make the argument that they keep Prince because they want to win now, and that he is now the better player, but he isn't playing any minutes anyway...so that's out.

I really don't have any proof of trouble with White. I haven't been ultra impressed with his play. Clearly much less impressed then a lot of people here. I just think it makes logical sense, that if Detroit gave up on him so soon, he isn't the super prospect some people are touting him as.

2. My issue with the athletics, is nearly every player with a 35 inch vertical is touted as a 1st round draft pick. I think it's ridiculous. You see guys coming into the league, like a Rodney White, who are great athletes, but have limited fundamentals and they are claimed to have "great upside". Don't get me wrong, the game is becoming more and more athletic, and athletic ability is as important as anything else, but it results in guys who are fundamentally sound, who can contribute right away, such as Casey Jacobsen, Carlos Boozer, Juan Dixon, get scathing reviews and labeled as guys who can't get any better. I think there are many cases where a player has huge athletic ability and is given way too many chances to succeed while a less athletic, more fundamentally sound player isn't given the same opportunities because of the stigma against his type.

I also don't like the term "upside" as it is thrown around by nearly everyone about nearly every player. All it means is that someone could get better, and become really good. But how many players are drafted and guys go..."oh, well, he's as good today as he will be tomorrow and the next day..." everyone has upside...until you reach and then pass your prime.

OZZY · 02-26-2003, 07:49 AM

Like some have said Rodney White is much younger than Prince! Prince played 4 years in college, White played one season. So obviously Prince might look better right now. Hey a ton of SG looked better than Kobe when he came into the NBA, does that mean they are better than him? Hell no! They are just more advanced in there basketball development because of there age. Take for example Battier, I hate the guy when he came out. Why, well he can not improve on what he already has, he will not get better, he will only get worse. Some players have a upside to them because they are young, and you take into account the aspects of the game they could learn over time if they work at it. So that is where the athletic ability comes in, if every player works just as hard, then the better athlete will be the better player. Only problem is some athletes don't work hard all the time.

But back to White, I do not think he is athletic, I just think he is a very solid mismatch problem. He is a big kid, has a wonderful handle of the basketball, he can get to the hoop and is a competitor. I think his future will be much better than Prince because White has not shown what he can do yet. And part of the reason for the is he did not get any time to play on Detroit.

Again people probably said Al Harrington etc were not good players in the first few years of their career. But now look at the Pacers, they collected young talent and they are succeeding because of it....

NugzFan · 02-26-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OZZY!
Like some have said Rodney White is much younger than Prince! Prince played 4 years in college, White played one season. So obviously Prince might look better right now.

but he doesnt.

Springsteen · 02-26-2003, 04:35 PM

What you say Ozzy, only really makes sense if Joe Dumars is an idiot. The Pistons organisation has shown that they are pretty decent evaluators of talent (Wallace, Williamson etc.). I think they are aware of Prince being a more polished product right now, if that's the case (which even if it is, doesn't really matter, 'cause Prince is getting no pt).

What it comes down to, is that Prince isn't playing, and neither would have White. But why would they keep around Prince and not White? If White was the prospect he's being touted as, why wouldn't they keep him on the end of the bench and develop him? I mean, its what the Pacers are doing/done with Harrington, Bender etc. The argument doesn't come down to an age issue, it comes down to an issue of how the Pistons view the situation. Saying that keeping White was impossible is a fallacy, as mid-season the Pistons were able to pick up Danny Manning. They could have even kept White on the IR and worked on him there. My argument is not based in his not getting playing time, or even a judegment of what he has done when he has had time to play. All I've been trying to say is that if he was the valuable commodity that you and others are saying he is, then the Pistons would have found a way to keep him there.

As for Battier, he was drafted high, but his talent level coming out was pretty solid, as he's a solid role player. Maybe another team would have been willing to take a risk on a White or a Johnson at the 5 spot, but already taking a risk on Gasol, an Swift previous, the Griz wanted someone solid to slide in and be able to make a contribution.

Also, I don't want to get into an argument about a player improving and not being able to improve. Are you saying someone with limited athletic ability can't get any better? Was Larry Bird the same player at 23 that he was at 27? You might as well use that as your example, not Battier. Both dominated college for more then 1 year. Both don't have an abundance of physical gifts, but are hustle players.

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