Dirtybirds81

Denver Trades: M. Camby, N. Tskitishvili

Denver Receives: K. Thomas, C. Ward, M. Vujanic

Denver would pay Ward's $2m buy-out and save more cap money. Thomas plays PF, while Hilario is at center. Vujanic is a terrific young pg that will lead this team in the right direction.

My question is whether or not Carmelo can play SG. If so the starting lineup:

PG- M. Vujanic
SG- C. Anthony
SF- R. White
PF- K. Thomas
C- N. Hilario

That is a team on the rise.

CrossinUOvr03

I'd flip flop 'Melo and White on your starting lineup. Let Rodney play the SG, since he's a little quicker. 'Melo will be tough to stop for most SF in the league. Of course, letting Thomas come in means you definitely lose Juwan Howard. Besides that, I still think they would need 1 or 2 more good free agents to come in.

Dirtybirds81

So what's up with the trade? Would NY do it? Would Denver do it? Carmelo says, "Just Do It."

abm2121

The Nuggs would get rapped in that deal. Skita in a year or two will be a star. Why would the Nuggs want two peices of **** and a guy that might be good.

Brady00

The Nuggets would never ever, ever, EVER make that trade, it makes no sense at all. The Nuggets would give a player who could potentially be their best player next year, Camby ( although I don't expect to see him in more that 20 games), and a player who they are high on and could be the next Dirk (fingers crossed). The only positive would be Vuljanic, but we can get a much better PG in free agency (see Arenas, Gilbert). Ward was never that good and Thomas is on the latter end of his career.

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MPK

i have a couple main points

1.) kurt thomas is not even 31. as of now he is in the prime of his career and is signed reasonably. he is a tough enforcer/banger that any playoff team needs. he also has a little offensive game as well. he is good for 14/8 and tough d if he gets sufficient playing time.

2.) the nuggets would not be getting ward the player. they would be getting ward, the salary cap room. he would be immediately bought out of his contract and boom, 5 mill of cap space. even more the nuggs to go after arenas, maggette, etc...

3.) as of now vujanic is the top pg in europe. he led the euroleague in ppg and steals. at worst he looks to be a 6'3'' nick van exel, at best he is a steve nash clone, maybe with better d. while his upside is a little less than skita's his downside is alot better.

4.) no way camby is the nuggs best player nect year even if healthy. that honor falls to nene, carmelo, or possibly a free agent that is signed. nene will mature in leaps and bounds and could be the most improved player next year. it would not shock me to see 15+ ppg and 10 boards from nene nest year. even if he doesn't improve that much carmelo could be rookie of the year and score over 15 a game. if arenas is signed he automatically becomes the bets player on the tema in 2003-04

5.) skita hasn't proven anything. he didn't produce in europe (albeit he didn't get minutes because young players in europe don't get too much pt and his team was competing) while he showed some signs last year he was tied with dunleavy for the biggest potential bust in the top 10 a year after the draft. while i believe that skita will become an all-star player in 2-3 years it has to be admitted that he has bust potential.

as a side point skita's has fallen just based on the fact that the nuggs will select melo. nene and melo will be their prime building bocks as will arenas if he signs, and maggette, if he signs to a lesser extent.


a note on vujanic as well, at 6'3''-6'4'' he could man the sg position as well. with him and arenas in the backcourt the nuggs would be very difficult to defend. both have excellent scoring and passing ability.

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Brady00

1. The last time I looked in the NBA 31 was old and since when are the nuggets a playoff team?

2.The Nuggets would have no need of Ward the contract or Ward the player. 1) He sucks, 2) They have all the money in the world to sign whoever they want. They don't need an extra 5 million to sign Arenas, he's not going to cost 25 milion.

3. I said Vuljanic would be the good part of the deal, I woul dtake him any day.

4. "Marcus Camby could POTENTIALLY be their best player"
Of course it wouldn't surprise you if Nene averaged 15 and 10 next year, he averaged 10 and 8 this year after playing no where besides Brazil. Personally I am hoping for 17 and 12. And a healthy Marcus Camby could easily average 20 ppg, 10 ppg, 2 bpg. Nene will be much better but he will only be 20 years old next year and can't even shoot ...yet. Yes if Camby was healthy, which I won't think he will be, he could be the Nuggets best player. Carmelo could very well get ROY but no way would he be better than a healthy Camby in his rookie season.

5. Of course he hasn't done anything he was drafted as 17 year old project. What did Dirk Nowitzki do in his first year? Not very much (granted it was more than Skita). The Nuggets drafted Skita knowing it would take 2-3 years, they would never trade him 1 year into the process. Who cares if they are bringing in Carmelo, have you ever heard of drafting for talent rather than by position. If the Nuggets were really concerned about drafting players by position they would take Ford with the third pick rather than trade Skita.

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MPK

1.) 30 is not old, especially for a player who doesn't rely on quickness. thomas has another 5 years of quality production. he keeps himself in shape and has not history of major injury. kurt thomas playing well until his late 30's would not shock me.

2.) the nuggs will be closer to the playoffs, even than i think you can imagine. with the maturation of nene, the drafting of carmelo, and the signing of arenas those are 3 building blocks that already can produce on teh NBA level. adding complemenatry players such as magette, kurt thomas, etc... is the next step toward building a playoff team. if arenas signs, how many teams team can match the trio nene, camrelo, and arenas?

3.) Camby's career high in games is 63. in his entire career he has never averaged more than 15 ppg and since his rookie year his high has been 12 a game. camby has never been a 20ppg scorer and never will be. let compare thomas and camby ;ast 2 years shall we. camby has played in 58 total games averaging 11 and 11 with the knicks and 7 and 7 with the nuggs; kurt thomas has missed one game in the past 2 year, has averged 32 min a game, in 01-02 he was 13 and 9, in 02-03 he was 14 and 8.

as of now kurt thomas is a better, more reliable player than marcus camby, additionally the fact that he is signed to a reasonable contract is another factor in his favor. also age is not that much of a factor because camby is only 1 year younger than thomas.

4.) any cap space is desirable. if the nuggs didn't want to use it this and only sign arenas and say maggette, with the subtraction of ward's contract they would enough cap space in 2004 to sign a quality player to complete the puzzle and to lift the team into the playoffs.

5.) my point with vujanic in comparing him to skita was that vujanic is much more of sure thing, skita's ceiling is a little higher, but vujanic's bust potential is lower. another note on vujanic, jerry west said if he was in the draft this year he would be a sure fire lotto pick.

nuggs would not take ford because carmelo is such a superior player. come on thats pretty simple.

you really don't think that skita's value has declined because the nuggs will draft carmelo. obviously kiki has to take melo cause he will be by far the best player left on the board, but this automatically hurts skita's value because the nuggs will have an all-star caliber player at the position where it would have been easiest for skita to play. whether he can eventuallypu on enough weight to bang with the PF's of th west is a debate for another day.

the flaw with you arguement is that the nuggs are dealing on pure potential (camby's health, skita's maturation) the knicks are actually giving up quality productive NBA or Euroleague players and something more, cap space.

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- Frank Lloyd Wright

Brady00

1)Point taken.

2)I want the Nuggets to win as much as the next guy, but come on they are at least 2 years away. You are forgetting that the Nugs play in the Western Conference, I could take your point seriously if they were playing in the East. "How many teams can match the trio of Nene, Melo, and Arenas," many, actually the last team that made the playoffs in the West has trio of Amare, Marion, and Marbury. I'd take that trio any day.

3) All I'm talking about is Camby's potential, he has plenty of it. He can score; Thomas can't. In case you didn't watch any Nuggets games last year they need scoring, badly. Actually I am all for trading Camby it's just that this trade doesn't make any sense to me, and will never happen.

4)Of course any cap space is desirable but not if you have to give up a possible future star in Skita. There is no player that the Nuggets could sign in 2004 that they think will be better than Skita could be.

5) There was a reason that Skita was a lottery pick and Vuljanic was a second rounder, POTENTIAL. The Nuggets are a team that has been at the bottom of the standings for years. They don't need sure fire role players, they need to look for a future star, which Skita could be. All I'm saying is there aren't many trades out there the Nuggets would give up Skita in.

"nuggs would not take ford because carmelo is such a superior player. come on thats pretty simple."
Of course they wouldn't, I was just making a point. Point: If the Nuggets were so concerned about drafting for position, which they aren't, than they should just take Ford or trade for Ford because there dire need is a point guard. Why take Melo if Skita is your SF. *We both know the Nuggets are going to stay right where they are and draft Melo.

Th flaw with your argument is that you are not considering potential which is what the Nuggets truly need right now. They are makin their team for the future now next season.

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TheLegend

I say they just keep Skita as backup SF or trade him, and sign Maggette and Arenas from free agency which gives them five solid starters.

MPK

about thomas and camby. much of camby's scoring comes on put backs because of his athleticism. he has never had a polished offensive game. thomas in college at tcu was one of the leading scorers in the nation. thomas' low post game is more developed than camby's. the 2 things that hold camby back from being a star is obviously health and the fact he doesn't have a polished low post game. even if he was healthy i never see camby putting up more than 17 a game, he would have 12 boards and 3 blocks possibly, but never a 20 ppg scorer.

in vujanic's case it was lack of scouting. he never worked out for NBA teams so they never saw his potential. as jerry west said, he would be a lotto pick this year if eligeble.

you made my point for me. the 1st year the phoenix trio was together they made the playoffs. with maturation some complementary players both teams have excellent futures, sooner rather than later.

in regards to team chemistry. there can't be 4 or 5 all-stars on the floor at once. just not enough shots to go around. thats why supporting cast member are neccesary.

my point is not that the nuggs are concerned about drafting for positions,but that when melo is drafted skita's stock inherentely will decline, just based on the fact that the nuggs are drafting someone who plays his position. with nene, carmelo, and the signing of arenas it is evident that skita's role as a foundation block of the organization has decreased because there are 3 players who are more essential to the franchise than he is. last season there was only 1, nene.


you may be wrong players who are fa's in 2004, for one kobe is (i am not syaing there is a chance he will sign with the nuggs, just the fact that there are some quality fa's who may fit what the nuggs are trying to do better than skita will)

bottom line: camby and skita could bust in fact at 29 camby has not had one full healthy season and as his body starts to decline so do the chances he will ever be anything more than injury prone pf/c who relies on athleticism and explosion (not a good combo ex: mcdyess), but vujanic will be a quality pg/combo guard somewhere and thomas would be a perfect 1st bigman off the bench on a western conference team.

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"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright

Brady00

Would you make that trade y/n?
The only way I consider is if we can somehow get the 9th pick

"you made my point for me. the 1st year the phoenix trio was together they made the playoffs. with maturation some complementary players both teams have excellent futures, sooner rather than later."

No I didn't, you said "what teams could contest with the trio of Melo, Nene, and Arenas." The team I gave was the 8th seeded team in the playoffs last year. So clearly the Nuggets couldn't even contend with the top 8 teams in the Western Confernece. Because as you admitted Marbury, Stoudemire, and Marbury are by far better players than Nene, Melo, and Arenas. The same thing would not happen to Denver with what happend to Phoenix given the fact Marion is much better and complete than Carmleo will be next year, Marbury is an All-Star leader Arenas is not.. yet. Stoudemire is a better player than Nene, but not by much. Also the Suns had very good role players in Hardaway, Outlaw, Joe Johnson, and Scott Williams. No way would the Nuggets be able to make the complete of a roster in one off-season even if we picked up Maggete and Resigned Howard (probably won't happen).

Also Thomas scores almost all of his points off of put backs and doesn't have as good a shot as Camby, which isn't saying much. Sure Thomas led the nation in scoring but Camby probably could've accomplished that too if he was playing at TCU rather than UMass where he was seeing real competition. There was a reason Camby was drafted with the 2nd pick, he had real potential. Now it is true he has not lived up to the pick but the fact of the matter is that he has a very complete game including an offensive game. Also there is no need for the Nuggets to have a 31 year old PF who can't score, if we want a veteran PF we will keep Howard who could average 20-22 ppg.

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"Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite."

MPK

what are you proposing? the 9th pick, ward, and filler for camby and skita. there is no way vujanic could be inlvolved if the 9th pick was on the table.

obviously the nuggs won't be a real contender next year unless the sign, kidd, oneal, etc... but thomas is the type of role player that is neccesary on any competative team. the suns and warriors are examples of teams that elavated their play. the nuggets will make the playoffs soon, if not next year than the year after,while thomas is still productive. you saw how arenas' play elevated the play of the warriors, he could do the same for the nuggs and would have melo and nene to help him.

how many knick games have you seen? thomas' offensive game is much more developed than camby's. he has a much better jumper and can play with his back to the basket. camby has trouble playing with his back to the baskets and gets his point going above the rim on put backs. camby has no reliable post game, no post moves, etc... thomas does. the competition in the A-10 where umass played is decent, but its definately not one of the top conferences in country, certainly not in the class of the ACC, Big East, Big 10, SEC, etc...

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"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright

Brady00

I'm not proposing anything because of the fact that this trade would suck and will never happen. I don't understand while you keep talking like Thomas is going to be in a Nuggets uniform, there is no way. All I'm saying is if we are going to give up on Skita, which we won't, one thing I would want in return is a lottery pick.

I don't care about Vuljanic I am expecting to see Arenas with the Nuggets next year and Vuljanic would just ride the bench behind him.

If I had my choice between a healthy Camby and a healthy Thomas I would take Camby any day. Camby can control the lane defensively with his long arms and can grab plenty of rebounds. He also has a decent baby hook and semi-reliable jumper. He could have more of an impact upon the game than Thomas. We don't need to give up a potential all star for a good role player. Sure the Nuggets could make the playoffs in 2 years but they are looking 3-4 years ahead and Thomas would be gone by then anyway.

Sure the A-10 is not a top-notch conferenece and I never said it was but when Camby was playing at UMass it was a top-notch program and was playing a schedule against the the top Confernces. Look back in the early to mid 90's which was a better program playing against better teams TCU or UMass? Not even close.

How many Nugget games did you watch last year? Not very many judging by the fact that Thomas is a type of player the Nuggets need. They didn't have a problem getting rebounds or playing defense, they need scoring and a lot at that. Thomas is going to bring 10-12 points top, that is not better than what Camby can bring you. Plus Camby can play C allowing Nene to roam at PF where he is better suited, Thomas can't play C.

__________________
"Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite."

MPK

well arenas isn't a sure thing and vujanic can easily play the 2, he is 6'4'' and led the euroleague in scoring.

th point is that camby in his career has never been healthy. the most he has ever played in a season is 63 games and that has happened only twice. if a player is almost 30 and has never played a full season in his career the chances are pretty low that he suddenly turn into a bastion reliability and average 80 games a year for the next 3 seasons. camby's game relies on explosion and athleticism. as he gets older he will lose these attriubutes and decline considerably as a player.

back in the day with thomas and later i believe lee nailon the horned frogs of tcu has numerous tournament appearances. don't sell them short. kurt thomas was highly touted enough to go 10th overall to the heat and he is finally living up to his potential as he consistentley gets 30 min a game.

i never said the nuggs needed thomas. any sort of contending team needs a kurt thomas type-player who is rugged, can defend pf/c, rebound, score a little, and plays hard every time out. he is a complementary player for a contending team, which the nuggs will soon be. he provides a toughness up front that the nuggs just don't have. additionally he has been starting at center for the knicks for the past 2 years. obviously this year the nuggs had bigger needs, but with the additions of arenas and melo, and potentially maggette they can focus other spots like depth upfront and in the backcourt, as well as toughness and leadership.

thomas has averaged 14 ppg with no low post help on the knicks. with another quality player down low who knows he could be up in the mid to high teens consistentely.

thomas is better than camby because he is reliable, plays with passion, has a more developed lowpost game, never gets injured, and has a much more reasonable contract. granted camby bring an element to the game in his athleticism that thomas cannot match but rarely has camby ever in his career ever consistentely utilized his natural talent.

obviously we will never really agree on this topic so we should just agree to disagree. we both believe skita's could potentially be the best player in the deal, but the knicks are giving up 3 valuable assets: vujanic, 5 mill of immediate cap space, and thomas.

__________________
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright