e-monk

not really reflective of how most people are using the word agnostic here (and in the world)

for the definition of the word as more commonly used try

Blue

All these lables are confusing, but Ive heard that agnostisc means "without knowledge", whereas gnostic means "with knowledge". Conversely, that theist is "with belief" and atheist is "without belief". At least that's how I tend to look at it.

To say something is "unknowable" requires a certain level of knowledge imo; to say something is unknown seems more like you admit that you just dont quite know enough. It's an interesting distinction to consider but Oxford seems to define it the same way as you do.

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Nimreitz

Yeah, agnostic means you don't know, not that you don't know, but will accept one interpretation of Christianity just because. Why not accept the Buddha's truth if you really don't know?

e-monk

simplified I think of it this way

god exists (positive assertion)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I dont know<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(positive assertion) god doesnt exist

Blue

I know enough of my experiences in life to hold certain beliefs. I dont know everything, i dont have all the answers, but I know a little. I recognize there is a problem in the world, and no mans wisdom is going to set it right, but the issue is in the hearts of men and women being rightly related with God. We know what God allows us to know. I admit that there's more than I know, but I accept the Bible as truth and the revealed Word of God, I dont accept it "just because".

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e-monk

ok but just so we're clear you're not an agnostic, you're a christian

Floods

I am.

36 Karat

“Violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children: organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.”

- Christopher Hitchens

e-monk

that's not an argument against god, it's an argument against people (who are going to believe all manner of nonsense and work all manner of ills regardless)

36 Karat

Ehhrm, yeah, correct. I'm not adding to any argument you may be engaged in; simply, adding a relevant quote in a thread where it pertains.

e-monk

sure but a lot of people tend to confuse the two things so just wanted to clarify

(I wonder how Hitchens feels about religion now?)

36 Karat

Well the fact of the matter is any reference to a "God" in this thread is more likely to concern the humanly constructed concept of a judicious figure heralded by the (also) humanly constructed churches and their aristocratic leadership, not an ever-present, secular humanism compatible force occupying the universe.

And your last sentence is ridiculous. Hitchens would classify your statement as one of the many concerning any possible deathbed recantation, which he vehemently denied all the way to the finish line, all the while fielding questions regarding numerous greats (Paine, notably) and their own alleged deathbed recantations, and playing the role of wisdom when history tends to distort itself.

But to answer it objectively, Hitchens does not "feel" about religion whatsoever. However, as his extensive amount of earthly writing he left us dictates: he did indeed have incredibly strong feelings of religion when he was still taking breaths.

Nimreitz

I'd still call myself an atheist because there is PROBABLY not a God, but in the end I realize that I don't know. Those aggressive atheists can piss me off at times. Nothing I have seen or known convinces me to live my life as if there is a God (and if there is one or many, then which one do I follow?). My main gripe with evangelicals is how they believe that accepting Jesus is more important than living a good life.

E.H. Munro

Including Hitchens who was a deranged warmonger. The world dodged a bullet when he decided against political office, he did enough damage as a commentator.

As an Aristotelean/Aquinian I wouldn't think he feels anything. (In scholastic terms god would be pure existence, and "hell" eternal separation from god, or non-existence.)

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36 Karat

So what is it exactly that makes you feel Hitch was, in essence, a deranged warmonger who did damage as a commentator. It seems as if you're implying the world did not benefit at all from Christopher Hitchens.