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mauzer · 07-01-2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacersguyUSA

It's sad that 6 PPG 4 RPG is the best in Europe....really, that's horribly pathetic. I mean damn, 6 & 4. 6 & 4? 6 & 4 I have a feeling I could step into a Euro game and hit two of the closer three pointers and get 6 points.

That's worse than Darko Millicic, and I think Darko is one of (if not) the worst players in the league.

And it's not like he's getting any better. He averaged about 6 & 4 three years ago in the NCAA, a much better league than in Europe. Not improving in 3 years, and already being 21 years old does not exatly make me optomistic about his "continual growth in Europe." What I'm most optimistic for is him getting cut. For that reason, I'm not really upset about the pick that much, but it bothers me in principle.

My belief is that if you're going to draft a Euro (foreigner), they better have dominated their leauge, like Sabonis or Ming.

6 & 4.....damn......................damn.

NCAA better than Euroleague????? Are you on crack or heroin ????

mauzer · 07-01-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacersguyUSA

I've seen Darko and Brezec play. I remember distinctly Darko having a spiffy dunk blocked by the rim, and I remember Brezec throwing a "no-look" pass by passing first and then looking away. I thank Brezec for that though, because that was one of the funniest things I've seen in the NBA.

Explain why then U.S scrubs such as Maceo Baston and Anthony Parker are some of the best in Europe. If these European players are so great playing in the European system with they're "complete game" that's great for them. They should stay there. Most of them obviously can't play in a league as good as the NBA.

List of Euros drafted in the last 10 years:

Eurelijus Zukauskas
Dragan Tarlac
Predrag Stojakovic
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Efthimis Rentzias
Martin Muursepp
Priest Lauderdale
Marko Milic
Predrag Drobnjak
Roberto Cueñas
Dirk Nowitzki
Radoslav Nesterovic
Mirsad Turckan
Vladimir Stepania
Bruno Sundov
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Dalibor Bagaric Benston
Iakovos Tsakalides
Marco Jaric
Josip Sesar
Igor Rakocevic
Pau Gasol
Vladimir Radmanovic
Raul Lopez
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Antonis Fotsis
Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
Nickoloz Tskitishvili
Bostjan Nachba
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Milos Vujanic
Juan Carlos Navarro
Mario Kasun
Peter Fehse
Mladen Sekularac
Darko Milicic
Mickaël Pietrus
Zarko Cabarkapa
Aleksandar Pavlovic
Boris Diaw
Zoran Planinic
Maciej Lampe
Szymon Szewczyk
Slavko Vranes
Zaur Pachulia
Sani Becirovic
Paccelis Morlende
Remon Van de Hare
Nedzad Sinanovic
Andreas Glyniadakis
Andris Biedrins
Pavel Podkolzine
Victor Khryapa
Sergei Monia
Sasha Vujacic
Beno Udrih
Albert Miralles
Viktor Sanikidze
Sergey Lishchuk
Vassilis Spanoulis
Christian Drejer
Sergei Karaulov
Fran Vazquez
Yaroslav Korolev
Johan Petro
Ian Mahinmi
Ersan Ilyasova
Roko Ikic
Mile Illic
M. Andriuskevicius
Erazem Lorbek
Mickael Gelebale
Axel Hervelle
Marcin Gortat
Uros Slokar
Cenk Akyol

Now, subtract the ones that were already legit Euro stars, because I'm all for drafting them:

Eurelijus Zukauskas
Dragan Tarlac
Efthimis Rentzias
Martin Muursepp
Priest Lauderdale
Marko Milic
Predrag Drobnjak
Roberto Cueñas
Radoslav Nesterovic
Mirsad Turckan
Vladimir Stepania
Bruno Sundov
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Dalibor Bagaric Benston
Iakovos Tsakalides
Marco Jaric
Josip Sesar
Igor Rakocevic
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Antonis Fotsis
Robertas Javtokas Lietuvo
Nickoloz Tskitishvili
Bostjan Nachba
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Milos Vujanic
Juan Carlos Navarro
Mario Kasun
Peter Fehse
Mladen Sekularac
Darko Milicic
Mickaël Pietrus
Zarko Cabarkapa
Aleksandar Pavlovic
Boris Diaw
Zoran Planinic
Maciej Lampe
Szymon Szewczyk
Slavko Vranes
Zaur Pachulia
Sani Becirovic
Paccelis Morlende
Remon Van de Hare
Nedzad Sinanovic
Andreas Glyniadakis
Andris Biedrins
Pavel Podkolzine
Victor Khryapa
Sergei Monia
Sasha Vujacic
Beno Udrih
Albert Miralles
Viktor Sanikidze
Sergey Lishchuk
Vassilis Spanoulis
Christian Drejer
Sergei Karaulov
Fran Vazquez
Yaroslav Korolev
Johan Petro
Ian Mahinmi
Ersan Ilyasova
Roko Ikic
Mile Illic
M. Andriuskevicius
Erazem Lorbek
Mickael Gelebale
Axel Hervelle
Marcin Gortat
Uros Slokar
Cenk Akyol

And your left with a sorry bunch of players. Very few of those players I would say are deserving of their draft pick. Now, I've heard the counter argument "there's a lot of American drafted that don't turn out good too." To that I point out that American players, when drafted from high school, are stars on the high school level and college players generally as well. What I don't understand, is why NBA GMs keep drafting players such as Darko Milicic that aren't that great in Europe, and expect them to be great in America, when they obviously won't. I mean, what were those GMs thinking when drafing players like Mickael Gelabal?

You can look at an American pick that might be questionable, such as Bracey Wright, and at least justify it with Wright's 18 PPG and national title appearance. With Gelabal, you have a whole lot less.

I don't care why they are bad, the bottom line is that they 18 wins and 64 losses, and that is not good. I don't care that they lost "plenty of games by less than 3 points." If they were good, they would have won those games.

You're pretty bad at Ad Hominem attacks. Step you patronizing game up.

Following your idiotic stats-2004 OG USA Dream Team had to destroy all team sby 100-150 points margin. But what happened to your stars, ah??????

PacersguyUSA · 07-01-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mauzer

Following your idiotic stats-2004 OG USA Dream Team had to destroy all team sby 100-150 points margin. But what happened to your stars, ah??????

You quote a post with no stats in it, then procede to discuss stats. How does that work?

-mega- · 07-02-2005, 12:31 AM

Pacerguy - you're trying to say that these guys aren't (or weren't) doing good in the NBA? (from your list of players of players who weren't legit Euro stars when drafted)

Predrag Drobnjak
Vladimir Stepania
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Marco Jaric
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Zarko Cabarkapa
Boris Diaw
Beno Udrih

So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?

Want stats to prove you wrong?

As for your knowledge of basketball - in your first list you wrote about everybody drafted from Europe in the last 10 years. Then you subtracted those who were "already legitimate euro stars at the moment of the draft"...well, how to say...Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)...and Dirk Nowitzki - did you find any euroleague stats from Nowitzki? No? Need help on that? Well Nowitzki never played in any of the Euroleague teams.

So how can you say these guys were "already legitimate stars" when they weren't? How can we trust what you're saying (listing stats and stuff) when you don't know these simple things? And how can you then say Euroleague is weaker than the NCAA league?

Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.

That's why I say that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague.

Pacers Fan · 07-02-2005, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -mega-

Pacerguy - you're trying to say that these guys aren't (or weren't) doing good in the NBA? (from your list of players of players who weren't legit Euro stars when drafted)

Predrag Drobnjak
Vladimir Stepania
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Marco Jaric
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Zarko Cabarkapa
Boris Diaw
Beno Udrih

So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?

None of them are horrible, but witht he exception of Tony Parker, none are very good.

Quote:

Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)

He's talking about people like Darko Milicic who average 1/1.

Quote:

Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.

Olowakandi is a horrible NBA player. I'd assume he was also pretty bad in Europe.

-mega- · 07-02-2005, 01:19 AM

PacerFan - how the hell do you know what/who was he talking about?

He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.

Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care.

What is horrible anyway? Olowokandi is horrible but Cabarkapa isn't? Want stats?

Anyway - the post was for pacerguyUSA...I'd love to hear from him.

BTW pacerguyUSA - Priest Lauderdale (you listed him as an European player drafted in the NBA) was born in Chicago. Since there is no Chicago anywhere in Europe I'd think he's american. But he does have a bulgarian passport (since he playes there). Maybe that confused you...but he got his bulgarian passport only in 2002 (since then he plays in Bulgaria)...so, when he was drafted he was a citizen of the USA...

Pacers Fan · 07-02-2005, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -mega-

PacerFan - how the hell do you know what/who was he talking about?

He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.

I'm just assuming, but I think he's basing his argument with players like Darko Milicic, who are drafted early because they have potential and sit on their asses in Europe, whereas players from college or high school have established themselves as very good players at that level before they come in.

Quote:

Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care.

Olowakandi was picked because of his potential. His stats seem to be good for college, but his laziness and lack of talent didn't translate to the NBA.

Quote:

What is horrible anyway? Olowokandi is horrible but Cabarkapa isn't? Want stats?

Olowakandi isn't horrible, but him being a #1 pick, having a bad contract, and being lazy makes him unworthy of his status. I haven't seen enough of Cabarkapa to really judge him, but I'd say that he isn't Darko V2.

-mega- · 07-02-2005, 07:51 AM

PacerFan - is it really hard to understand that Darko Milicic has in front of him maybe the best centers/power forwards in the league?

You really think he'd play 4 minutes/game if he'd be playing for Atlanta? Give me a break - Milicic didn't get any proper chance to prove himself - and you are judging him on what?! Stats again?!

Same **** with Brezec - he had O'Neal in front of him and Brad Miller - and he was a rookie. Now, how could he get his minutes? By injuring one of those two guys? And please don't start with "he-should-have-tried-harder-and/or-practiced-more crap" cause you know its bull****.

Olowokandi had good stats for a NCAA athlete, but when he came to Europe he was somewhere average - which proves that even the brightest NCAA stars should earn their money in Europe and that the Euroleague is stronger than the NCAA where kids play! That's why the USAbasketball stoped sending NCAA players to international tournaments - cause they are kids of 22years max.

As for Anthony Parker and Maceo Baston (the two that PacerGuyUSA stressed):

Maceo Baston - he played one year in Toronto where he had the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross in front of him. His stats - 2,5 ppg, 1,4 rpg in 7 minutes. Could have he done better in those 7 minutes? Hard to belive. Could have he played more? Yes, if someone would get injured.

Anthony Parker - he played in Philly when there were Allen Iverson, Jerry Stackhouse and Jim Jackson as the first five options (Iverson takes the top three offensive options in Philly). Then he went to Orlando - this may have been his chance to prove he belonged in the NBA but still he didn't get A PROPER CHANCE (read - like Brezec didn't get his in Indiana, like Milicic isn't getting his in Detroit).

That's the main reason why these two guys "didn't make it" in the NBA. And that's the main reason why these same two guys are doing great in Europe. Becuse they are put in an enviornment where they feel needed and where they can express themselves.

PacersguyUSA · 07-02-2005, 10:51 AM

Predrag Drobnjak
Vladimir Stepania
Gordan Giricek
Hidayet Türkoglu
Marco Jaric
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tony Parker
Mehmet Okur
Jiri Welsch
Nenad Krstic
Zarko Cabarkapa
Boris Diaw
Beno Udrih

Bold = not worth their draft pick

Quote:

So in your opinion these guys aren't that good? They are "a sorry bunch of players"?

Want stats to prove you wrong?

Take note where I said, "very few of those players I would say are deserving of their draft pick."

Quote:

As for your knowledge of basketball - in your first list you wrote about everybody drafted from Europe in the last 10 years. Then you subtracted those who were "already legitimate euro stars at the moment of the draft"...well, how to say...Predrag Stojakovic wasn't really the biggest of the stars in Europe when drafted (wasn't bad, but really wasn't THAT good)

He scored 17 points on 54% shooting the year he was drafted. That's good enough to validate being drafted. It's not Lorbek's 6 & 4 type numbers. Then he put up over 20 in the three years before being brought over.

Quote:

..and Dirk Nowitzki - did you find any euroleague stats from Nowitzki? No? Need help on that? Well Nowitzki never played in any of the Euroleague teams.

So.......? I don't care what league any of these players play in in Europe, the fact is, Dirk averaged 28.2 points per game for Germany the season before he was drafted, and that was on 56.1% shooting.

Quote:

So how can you say these guys were "already legitimate stars" when they weren't?

Because they were.

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How can we trust what you're saying (listing stats and stuff) when you don't know these simple things?

Because I do.

Quote:

And how can you then say Euroleague is weaker than the NCAA league?

Because it is.

Quote:

Here's another thing - 1998 NBA draft - selected first - Michael Olowokandi. Then there was the lockout and Olowokandi went to Italy to play for Kinder Bologna. He was there playing with one Rasho Nesterovic. Olowokandi was presented like this huge star, 1st NBA draft pick...well he was just a backup for Nesterovic and didn't really shine (wasn't bad, but from the first NBA pick you'd expect more) in those 3 games he played in the "weak" Euroleague.

Seems a little rediculous to judge someone off of three games, but if he kept up the pace he was going at (which you say was only okay), he would have scored the most field goals on the team if he played in as many games as Nesterovic.

PacersguyUSA · 07-02-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -mega-

He said - "subtract the players who were legitimate stars in Europe" and I pointed out two who really weren't. And Nowitzki REALLY wasn't a big deal in Europe when he was drafted.

I'm not talking "star" as in fan recognition, I'm talking star in terms of production, and Nowitzki averaged about 22 PPG for Germany the season before being drafted. That's hardly the numbers of a Milicic or Lorbek.

Quote:

Olowokandi was the first draft pick, came from the NCAA - I wrote about him just to prove that the NCAA isn't close to the Euroleague. If he's a horrible player or not I don't care.

He was on pace to lead his team in field goals with less than expected play, as you say. If anything, that shows the weakness of the Euroleague.

Quote:

BTW pacerguyUSA - Priest Lauderdale (you listed him as an European player drafted in the NBA) was born in Chicago. Since there is no Chicago anywhere in Europe I'd think he's american. But he does have a bulgarian passport (since he playes there). Maybe that confused you...but he got his bulgarian passport only in 2002 (since then he plays in Bulgaria)...so, when he was drafted he was a citizen of the USA...

He was drafted based on his play for Peristeri Nikas Greece, and that's what his whole debate is about: drafting crappy players based on their game in Europe.

PacersguyUSA · 07-02-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -mega-

PacerFan - is it really hard to understand that Darko Milicic has in front of him maybe the best centers/power forwards in the league?

Nobody will tell you Detroit's Center's, Ben Wallace or Elden Campbell are better than Shaq. Also, nobody will tell you that Rasheed Wallace or Antonio McDysse are better than Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or Jermaine O'neal. So no, Milicic doesn't play behind "maybe the best centers/power forwards in the leauge," he definately doesn't. It doesn't help him that he's one of the worst players in the NBA.

Quote:

You really think he'd play 4 minutes/game if he'd be playing for Atlanta? Give me a break - Milicic didn't get any proper chance to prove himself - and you are judging him on what?! Stats again?!

He wasn't even that great in Europe, where he got plenty of playing time.

Quote:

Same **** with Brezec - he had O'Neal in front of him and Brad Miller - and he was a rookie. Now, how could he get his minutes? By injuring one of those two guys? And please don't start with "he-should-have-tried-harder-and/or-practiced-more crap" cause you know its bull****.

He was still behind them three years later, and he still would be if he came back to the Pacers.

Quote:

Olowokandi had good stats for a NCAA athlete,

I wouldn't say his stats were that good, 13 PPG.

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but when he came to Europe he was somewhere average

He was somewhat average in three games, and he was still on pace to lead his European team in field goals.

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which proves that even the brightest NCAA stars should earn their money in Europe and that the Euroleague is stronger than the NCAA where kids play! That's why the USAbasketball stoped sending NCAA players to international tournaments - cause they are kids of 22years max.

Yes, three games by one persone certainly leaves us with this deduction.

Quote:

As for Anthony Parker and Maceo Baston (the two that PacerGuyUSA stressed):

Maceo Baston - he played one year in Toronto where he had the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross in front of him. His stats - 2,5 ppg, 1,4 rpg in 7 minutes.

Which was it, 2 points or 5 points? 1 rebound or 4? Unless your making typos and that's supposed to be a decimal point. I don't know, and I can't rebute you if I don't know which you're talking about?

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Could have he done better in those 7 minutes? Hard to belive. Could have he played more? Yes, if someone would get injured.

Jerome Williams and Eric Montross are scrubs.

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Becuse they are put in an enviornment where they feel needed and where they can express themselves.

A.K.A. they need a worse league to play in. Certainly being behind the likes of Jerome James, Eric Montross, Jim Jackson proves this.

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