You underrate how much both players want to play with each other again. It's pretty obvious both players wish to. They visit the same teams in FA together? They still do the head bang, and people inside say Darius wants to come back and play with Q.
Yes, the Raptors could very well talk to Q and say if you agree to the trade, we'll do everything we can to bring Darius over next year. That would help him agree to the trade. It's really not a hard or outlandish concept to accept.
If Vince sticks to his trade demands, the Raptors may have no choice to trade him for a package similar to Q and Wilcox. Like Shaq, if the player demands the trade and will not come back, you may have to trade the player for less than the value he may be worth. Where is Vince going to go - Dallas for what, Antoine Walker? Getting Q, a young player signed to a cheap deal and a young PF on his rookie deal is a better trade. With the Knicks - What are they going to get? Mike Sweetney and Kurt Thomas? Again, the Clippers deal is better. There may not be a whole lot of people out there for Vince. If he sticks to the trade demands, a package of young players are reasonable deals, which Q and Wilcox are, is definitely a very enticing package. If they want to trade him for an older, more expensive player, thats their deal.
If they dont want the deal the Clippers offer, big deal. If it includes Maggette, the team is not much better than it was before the trade, so I dont see them doing it. The discussion here is what it would cost and what we are willing to give up. And the deal of Q and Wilcox is definitely a reasonable deal. They may be able to do better, but they may not. Thats wht this board is for - To discuss things.
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
And the deal of Q and Wilcox is definitely a reasonable deal.
Why? Because some guys want it to be?
With Bosh and Araujo, what need does Toronto have for Wilcox?
How much in love with Q is the rest of the league?
Ya we love him, but lets face he has the worst shot selection in the league, and his defense is terrible at this point, and injury wise he's going to miss 15 games a year, just what Toronto needs.
If it were any other trade, who knows Q and Wilcox might be a nice package, but in this case it doesn't make any sense.
Bosh is their future KG and they just used a top 10 pick on Araujo, those guys are going to PLAY neither will watch Wilcox from the bench regardless.
Carter is the franchise for Toronto, the reason people go to games, you're going to have a lot of empty seats if you trade him and bring back a Q and Wilcox.
RD, you seem to be pretty fairly knowledgeable about the game, but you're clearly ignoring many factors here for the sake of being a Clippers fan that thinks this is a reasonable trade, because it isn't.
Any deal for Carter will include Maggette, Q and a not needed Wilcox is far from reasonable plus when you consider Toronto has Vince's contract for another 3 years, he doesn't have the leverage right now that T-Mac and Kobe did, their situations were look you either do what we want or leave now/soon, Vince can't say those same words.
He can be traded before December 15th, as long as he agrees to the deal. He can't go to Phoenix, and he has to agree to a trade. Those are the only stipulations to trading him.
(d) Except as set forth in subsection (e) below, no player who signs a Contract as a Free Agent or Draft Rookie may be traded before the later of (1) three (3) months following the date on which such Contract was signed or (2) the December 15 of the Salary Cap Year in which such Contract was signed.
(e) A Veteran Free Agent and his Prior Team may enter into a Player Contract pursuant to an agreement between the Prior Team and another Team concerning the signing and subsequent assignment of such Contract, but only if (1) the Contract is for three (3) or more Seasons (excluding any Option Year), (2) the Contract is not signed pursuant to the Mid-Level Salary Exception or the Disabled Player Exception, (3) the first Season of the Contract is fully protected for lack of skill, and (4) the acquiring Team has Room for the player’s Salary plus any Unlikely Bonuses provided for in the first Season of the Contract. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary set forth in the preceding sentence, during the 1998-99 Season only, a Veteran Free Agent and his Prior Team may enter into a Player Contract pursuant to an agreement between the Prior Team and another Team concerning the signing and subsequent assignment of such Contract if (i) the conditions set forth in clauses (1) - (3) of the preceding sentence are satisfied, (ii) the acquiring Team’s Team Salary is below the Salary Cap and (iii) the acquiring Team has Room for the player’s Salary provided for in the first Season of the Contract.
So, unless he is part of a sign and trade agreement [described in (e) above], a free agent who is signed to a new contract cannot be traded for 3 months or until December 15th - whichever is later.
The additional rule about Richardson having to agree to any trade in the first year applies because of the Clippers matching an offer sheet for him as a RFA.
SoCal, check some other threads, I have posted the restrictions of trading your own RFA that you have matched. They list stipulations of the trade, but not once do they mention a waiting period.
arenas, what would Toronto do with Wilcox? Just because they havae Bosh and Araujo means nothing. Is Wilcox not considered a good backup for us, and we have our 4 and 5 spots set. Wilcox does a couple things for Toronto. First, he gives them another, young, talented big man to play. If he develops into a better player than Bosh, they could easily keep him. Bosh is nowhere near as entrenched as an Elton Brand is. Who is to say that the 6'11(with a ridiculous reach) Bosh and the 6'10 Wilcox could not start together in the post? Everyone realizes Araujo was a reach, and he may not ever be a starting caliber C in the league. Aside from this, Wilcox being a young and talented big man on his rookie deal, gives them another value trade commodity. They have a number of contracts they want to get rid of(Carter, Williams, Murray, Rose, etc). They are not going to be able to unload them all with Vince CArter in a trade. Trading a guy like Wilcox after acquiring him allows you to "dump" another salary you do not like on another team, and give them something of value along with doing so.
There are reasons why they could use Wilcox. Just because they have Bosh doesnt mean they couldnt use him. The reasons above are just a couple of them.
As for Q/Wilcox for Carter ... Im not saying Toronto will or should take this deal. All I am saying is that its the best the Clippers can offer and that is definitely could be the best deal Toronto gets for Vince. If Vince continues to push his trade demands, Toronto is not going to get full value for Vince Carter. If they want to include another salary in the deal, they are going to get even less value(as part of the value for Toronto in the trade is the other team taking on a contract like Williams) in return. Q/Wilcox could very well be the best deal they get. I believe it's better than any deal Dallas or New York could offer, and those are the two teams rumored most about trading for him. If they trade Carter to either of those teams, they are going to have to take back bad contracts to match the deals(as both teams are over the cap), and neither team has available young talent like Q or Wilcox.
While I agree Q/Wilcox is not a deal Toronto says well take it as soon as its offered, I think it could be a deal they accept once they look at other offers for Vince and realize they won't get a great deal for him.
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
Q/Wilcox could very well be the best deal they get.
I highly doubt that...
Quote:
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
While I agree Q/Wilcox is not a deal Toronto says well take it as soon as its offered, I think it could be a deal they accept once they look at other offers for Vince and realize they won't get a great deal for him.
There's no pressure to trade Vince, this isn't a T-Mac situation had to say look we either make the best deal we can or we let him walk at the end of this year for nothing.
Toronto has Carter under contract for another 3 years, they don't HAVE to make a move, and can't be pressured to make a bad one.
As far as Bosh/Araujo, you're talking 2 lotto picks they've invested in the past year, politics alone would keep Wilcox from coming in and playing, he'd have the same role with them as he does with us.
You are also definitely overrating Q's value, yes he has value, but no one in Toronto will pay money to come to the games because Q is on the team.
You also stretched to say that maybe Q could get Darius to take the QO this year and sign with Toronto next year and that's laughable.
This is the same organization that didnt' hire Dr.J to be their GM even though that's what their franchise player wanted, yet Q comes in and he can pull the strings so they sign Darius Miles?
There is pressure to trade Vince if he persists in his trade demands.
If you're superstar isn't happy, it's going to effect the entire team. Why would you want to just sit there and have your team struggle, because Vince wants out?
Vince is under contract and they dont have to trade him. But, having him stew on the bench and be unhappy is not a recipe for success.
As for Wilcox ... there is hardly any pressure to play Bosh and Araujo over Wilcox if Wilcox were aboard. Araujo was a pick even Raptor fans didnt want. If someone else were to play over him, it would not be the end of the world. Bosh has become a fan favorite, and it would be tougher for Wilcox to play over him. But, if Wilcox comes in and is the better player, there is no question you play Wilcox over him. Bosh has established nothing in the league, and he's only been a Raptor for a year. If he is outplayed, Toronto would play the other player in a heartbeat.
As for Miles/Q ... Its hardly letting Q pull the strings. Darius Miles is a valuable player, and has been contacted by a few teams this summer. Adding Miles to your team is far more than just making Q happy. Its an addition to the team that makes your team better. If it were Q asking to them to grab Lionel Chalmers, it would be one thing. But bringing in a player that can have an impact is not letting the kid dictate whats going on. Q/Darius could easily replace the "hype" factor, bringing in the fans. Let's not forget they got the Clippers to have sold out games.
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
There is pressure to trade Vince if he persists in his trade demands.
If you're superstar isn't happy, it's going to effect the entire team. Why would you want to just sit there and have your team struggle, because Vince wants out?
Vince is under contract and they dont have to trade him. But, having him stew on the bench and be unhappy is not a recipe for success.
As for Wilcox ... there is hardly any pressure to play Bosh and Araujo over Wilcox if Wilcox were aboard. Araujo was a pick even Raptor fans didnt want. If someone else were to play over him, it would not be the end of the world. Bosh has become a fan favorite, and it would be tougher for Wilcox to play over him. But, if Wilcox comes in and is the better player, there is no question you play Wilcox over him. Bosh has established nothing in the league, and he's only been a Raptor for a year. If he is outplayed, Toronto would play the other player in a heartbeat.
As for Miles/Q ... Its hardly letting Q pull the strings. Darius Miles is a valuable player, and has been contacted by a few teams this summer. Adding Miles to your team is far more than just making Q happy. Its an addition to the team that makes your team better. If it were Q asking to them to grab Lionel Chalmers, it would be one thing. But bringing in a player that can have an impact is not letting the kid dictate whats going on. Q/Darius could easily replace the "hype" factor, bringing in the fans. Let's not forget they got the Clippers to have sold out games.
Again, Vince Carter, the Toronto franchise and cashcow, couldn't get management to hire Dr. J as the GM, yet Q Rich can convince management to sign Darius Miles next year?
Ya ok...
You're ignoring a lot of facts for the sake of speculating to support your argument.
You've invested lotto picks in your 2 big men the past 2 years, yet they're gona do a trade for Wilcox and one of them will watch from the bench?
Who cares if the Raps fans didn't want Araujo. He's ready to go, and he'll be the starting C day 1.
How much in love with Q is the rest of the league?
im a TO fan and i like Q... in fact he's my favorite player. btw, hoffa was only picked to help in bosh's development and was picked so high so that the jazz couldn't get him. he was number one on utah's list.
__________________ 10 Favorite Players: 1. Allen Iverson, Denver 2. Ronnie Brewer, Utah 3. Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers 4. Gilbert Arenas, Washington 5. Josh Smith, Atlanta 6. Jeff Green, Oklahoma City 7. Dwight Howard, Orlanda 8. Jose Calderon, Toronto 9. OJ Mayo, Memphis 10. Kyle Lowry, Memphis
Ely and wilcox were also lottery picks. Just because youre a lottery pick, that doesnt mean your a starter. Players get PT because they can play. How much depth does toronto have in the front court? Clippers were loaded the year they got wilcox AND ely. But down the road with the injuries, the picks turned out great as they played valuable backup and even starrting minutes when the starters got injured.
Araujo IMO might turn out to be another elmore spencer. If youre an SDSU fan you might remember how the 6'8" 205lbs. aztecs center ate him alive one of the games that they played us, on both sides of the court.
Anyway, im not saying this trade is going to happen, but it makes sense for the raptors. It also has nothing to do with pulling strings. Actually, the ONLY way i see toronto TO do this deal is with the thought that miles would be coming next year with Q's help. Those two together might not be the same popularity as vince, but the head banging twins would definately bring some of the fans back that vince would have lost, more than almost any other deal i can think of.
Bosh doesnt have to sit for wilcox. Wilcox might play a lot of 5. Also, they could have a 3 man rotation at the 4-5, meaning everyone gets plenty minutes....
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08-09 Clippers - A Thomas/Mobley trade for a star on the cheap away from a championship
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
SoCal, check some other threads, I have posted the restrictions of trading your own RFA that you have matched. They list stipulations of the trade, but not once do they mention a waiting period.
I've seen your other posts. There's no gentle way to say this - you're wrong.
You are under the impression that the restriction on matched RFA's is there to the exclusion of any other rules about trading recently signed free agents. This is not the case. ALL free agents are under the restriction of Article VII, Section 8(d) that I quoted above. That's why it says "no player who signs a Contract as a Free Agent or a Draft Rookie".
Then ADDITIONALLY, RFA's who have an offer sheet matched have another restriction placed on them, described in Article XI, Section 6 of the CBA::
Quote:
(f) After exercising its Right of First Refusal as described in this Section 6, the ROFR Team may not trade the Restricted Free Agent for one (1) year, without the player’s consent. Even with the player’s consent, for one (1) year, neither the ROFR Team exercising its Right of First Refusal nor any other Team may trade the player to the Team whose Offer Sheet was matched.
Two different sections of the CBA. It's not A or B, in the case of matched RFA's, it's A+B.
BTW, here's what Chad Ford had to say about the situation in his chat today.:
Quote:
Jonah Morris: (Toronto, Ontario): Hey Chad, Sam Smith wrote a great article about how shipping Vince Carter to the Clippers could be good for both teams. What are your thoughts, and if this trade did go down, who could be coming back to Toronto? Thanks
Chad Ford: It would be a great trade for the Clippers if they were only giving back Quentin Richardson. However, I can't imagine that the Raptors would do that (besides, the Clippes couldn't make that trade until Dec. 15 at the earliest if they matched Q's offer sheet). The problem for the Raptors is that they can't afford to just give Vince away. They need to trade him for a real center or another dominant player. They just aren't getting offers like that right now.
Maybe I am wrong, but I dont see any article that clearly s tates such. Chad Ford could easily be wrong - Reports/announcers often are.
I have posted a link with restrictions on the RFA trading, and it mentions nothing of a waiting period.
I very well could be wrong. But, considering there are posts on both sides of the issue, I dont know what is right or wrong. If Im wrong, I have no problems admitting it. But, I went straight to the websites that have the info, and it says nothing about a waiting period on restriced FA's, but at the same time, it does list other stipulations on trading them. Why does it leave out the waiting periord stipualation, yet, include other ones? Im confused by just about all of the cap info, and this appears to be yet, another one.
Originally posted by <b>RD</b>!
Chad Ford could easily be wrong - Reports/announcers often are.
And Chad Ford more than some others.... Yeah, Chad isn't the sterling example I would have liked to have used, but he did mention it yesterday, so it was the easiest to find.
Quote:
I very well could be wrong. But, considering there are posts on both sides of the issue, I dont know what is right or wrong. If Im wrong, I have no problems admitting it. But, I went straight to the websites that have the info, and it says nothing about a waiting period on restriced FA's, but at the same time, it does list other stipulations on trading them. Why does it leave out the waiting periord stipualation, yet, include other ones? Im confused by just about all of the cap info, and this appears to be yet, another one.
Fair enough. I'm not trying to debate you into submission or anything. Tell you what. I'll try to e-mail Larry Coon or get a specific response from him on the issue. If I get an answer, I'll let you know what he says.
I am a cap idiot, and have never been one to know much about the cap and evertyhing it encompasses. Just reading through the websites, it left me confused. Maybe I was expecting the rule to be stated in black and white.
I have been wrong many times before, it wouldn't surprise me to be off here as well
Air Canada a Clipper?
