View Poll Results: Is this ultimately a better team WITH, or WITHOUT Elton Brand?

**Weasel** · 02-02-2008, 12:18 PM

Odd that Brand is getting crap now that he has been injured for several months. Never did I see any negativity against him when he was playing, I guess everyone forgot how important he is since they aren't watching him play right now. I guess this year's record wasn't a good indication of that.

Showtime87 · 02-02-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasel

Odd that Brand is getting crap now that he has been injured for several months. Never did I see any negativity against him when he was playing, I guess everyone forgot how important he is since they aren't watching him play right now. I guess this year's record wasn't a good indication of that.

Thanks Weasel, this is the point I've been trying to make here. It's sad how fickle some people can be.

**yamaneko** · 02-02-2008, 07:31 PM

Once again, has nothing to do with injury. Some people are so clueless its incredible.

Its one thing to take issue with someone's opinions, but when you can't face pure and simple facts, then you have to wonder about what you are basing your statements on.

Lets stick to the facts please.

1. Injury or not, brand would not have led us anywhere, just like usual, look at the team we have this year.
2. Has nothing to do with being fair weather fans or not, if you cannot see the reason those of us realistic fans are exploring other options at this point is that BRAND HAS ONLY ONE YEAR LEFT ON HIS DEAL, OR CAN OPT OUT THIS YEAR, and/or IS DUE AN EXTENSION. Why would anyone be talking about this 2 years ago when hes in the middle of his contract? Were talking about extending brand for max money next year. I for one feel that its not money well spent...
3. Brand with the bulls:
99-00 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. ROY. Bulls record: 17-65. Nothing much can be said about that bulls team, they would have sucked with or without brand..you add a superstar to that team, they probably would have barely made the playoffs if that

00-01 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. Bulls record: 15-67. Bulls realized hey, this brand guy isnt really going to take us places despite good stats...lets trade him for a high school player. The next two years, they increased in wins about 8 each year. Would i have traded him for a high school player? Heck no.

Clippers:

01-02 18 points, 11.6 boards, 2 blocks. Clippers Record: 39-43. 8 win increase over the previous season which is pretty reasonable considering you add a great player in brand and dont lose anyone noteable from the year before .however, might be not as good as poential considering that team was way better than us this or last year...Brand/Mccinis/Qrich/Kandiman/Dmiles/Maggette/Pike/boykins/dooling. But it was only good enough to get us 5th in the pacific division.

02-03 18 points, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks. Clippers record: 27-55. Lost miles and added andre miller. Yet, without a true leader on the team on or off the court (Miller for sure was far from it), we lost 12 more games than the previous year. Gentry fired, miller let go. In comes Dunleavvy. Before he signs he says, we have to 1. sign elton brand, 2. sign maggette, and 3. make a run at a superstar. They take care of step one and 2, giving elton a max deal. I had no problem with giving brand max money at that point. He had a couple good years with us, and despite our futility, it could possibly have been attributed to the coaching. So with the best coach we had since larry brown, one could be optimistic and say, hey maybe he can turn brand into the superstar leader we have needed...lets give it a shot.

03-04 20 points, 10 rebounds 2 blocks. Clippers record: 28-54 Ok, so individually brand was pretty much the same guy. Record wise, despite loosing odom and miller, Richardson became twice the player he was. We added kaman, and maggette continued to get better. Brand id give a pass again. At this point it was obvious though hed never be an on the court nor off the court leader. However, perhaps still a glimmer of hope he could become a superstar player, albeit a slight hope.

04-05 20 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 37-45. With pretty much the same team as the previous year, and everyone else getting better since they were so young, this was a reasonable increase in wins. However, with the talent on the team it seemed strange that our record was so bad despite being better on paper than teams who finished ahead of us.

05-06 25 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 47-35. FINALLY the clipers put it together. Brand puts up for the first time in his career superstar numbers. On one head the pessimit (i wasnt one of them...) might have said, well, its only because brand had an elite PG and leader that he did so much better. Most of us, including myself, thought that maybe brand was just a late superstar bloomer like a Tmac or something. For the first time he earned his max deal, and i thought this was just the beginning. I didnt attribute all of our success to him though. Any fool could see it was cassell's leadership, plus the best SG (mobley) we have had in the longest time, plus kamans surprisingly great year. But still, this year, i thought brand had turned the corner, and truly became a max player on the level of duncan and garnett.

06-07 20 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 40-42. Oh well. The pessmists were right. Brand's outburst wasnt the turning of a corner, it was mostly due to cassell's savvy and leadership. With cassell injured much of the year, Brand was back to his normal self. (nothing wrong with his normal self BTW).

07-08 DNP Clipper Record: TBD. Regardless of his injury, he most likely would have had the same year hes had most of his career, a very impressive 20,10 and 2. However, we wouldnt have gone anywhere as even with him we probably suck more than last year due to cassell still being hobbled, mobley aging faster than a dog, and all the other injuries we have had.

That brings us to this off season. (or next) Do we extend brand with a max deal, thus capping us out, meaning the only new guys we will get on our team are minimum level guys, or guys that we draft? To me, that would be insane. We alrady have 50 million tied up with Kaman. With brand, kaman is at best a 12 and 10 guy. Not my fault we signed kaman for 50 million, but its a done deal, and hes going nowhere. So if we resign brand for max money, we will be paying 27 million a year, more than half of our capspace, for 32 points, 20 rebounds. Couple that with our backup SF, and backup SG Thomas and mobley, making another 15 million, we have almost our full salary cap for our front court and 2 backups.

So then the logic dictates, well, really SHOULD we resign brand for the max? We have a terrible track record of drafting, so we cant necessarily bank on getting a surprise superstar all of a sudden. After this year, we have zero tradeable assets pretty much. Not that we have that great of a trading record anyway, but still, we cant bank on getting a superstar through trade. IF we resign brand, what can we expect? Without an elite PG, we can bank on his dependeable 20/10/2, but his entire career has shown us, thats not enough to even get to the playoffs, let alone win a championship.

Thus the only logical move is, like other teams, try something new. If its broke, then you fix it. If we have a forumla that cant win games for us, you dont resign that forumla for years to come.

Going after an arenas or similar player does not guarantee us anything. But its something new, something that we really dont know if it will work or not. With brand we already know it doesnt work.

If we can resign brand for a kaman like deal, i say youve got to do that. But i dont think anyone here actually believes brand will be looking for a deal that is a lot less than his current one.

If ANYONE here thinks brand is worth the max, and how its going to get us a championship, id love to hear that logic.

shaunliv · 02-03-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamaneko

Once again, has nothing to do with injury. Some people are so clueless its incredible.

Its one thing to take issue with someone's opinions, but when you can't face pure and simple facts, then you have to wonder about what you are basing your statements on.

Lets stick to the facts please.

1. Injury or not, brand would not have led us anywhere, just like usual, look at the team we have this year.
2. Has nothing to do with being fair weather fans or not, if you cannot see the reason those of us realistic fans are exploring other options at this point is that BRAND HAS ONLY ONE YEAR LEFT ON HIS DEAL, OR CAN OPT OUT THIS YEAR, and/or IS DUE AN EXTENSION. Why would anyone be talking about this 2 years ago when hes in the middle of his contract? Were talking about extending brand for max money next year. I for one feel that its not money well spent...
3. Brand with the bulls:
99-00 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. ROY. Bulls record: 17-65. Nothing much can be said about that bulls team, they would have sucked with or without brand..you add a superstar to that team, they probably would have barely made the playoffs if that

00-01 20 points, 10 boards, 2 blocks. Bulls record: 15-67. Bulls realized hey, this brand guy isnt really going to take us places despite good stats...lets trade him for a high school player. The next two years, they increased in wins about 8 each year. Would i have traded him for a high school player? Heck no.

Clippers:

01-02 18 points, 11.6 boards, 2 blocks. Clippers Record: 39-43. 8 win increase over the previous season which is pretty reasonable considering you add a great player in brand and dont lose anyone noteable from the year before .however, might be not as good as poential considering that team was way better than us this or last year...Brand/Mccinis/Qrich/Kandiman/Dmiles/Maggette/Pike/boykins/dooling. But it was only good enough to get us 5th in the pacific division.

02-03 18 points, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks. Clippers record: 27-55. Lost miles and added andre miller. Yet, without a true leader on the team on or off the court (Miller for sure was far from it), we lost 12 more games than the previous year. Gentry fired, miller let go. In comes Dunleavvy. Before he signs he says, we have to 1. sign elton brand, 2. sign maggette, and 3. make a run at a superstar. They take care of step one and 2, giving elton a max deal. I had no problem with giving brand max money at that point. He had a couple good years with us, and despite our futility, it could possibly have been attributed to the coaching. So with the best coach we had since larry brown, one could be optimistic and say, hey maybe he can turn brand into the superstar leader we have needed...lets give it a shot.

03-04 20 points, 10 rebounds 2 blocks. Clippers record: 28-54 Ok, so individually brand was pretty much the same guy. Record wise, despite loosing odom and miller, Richardson became twice the player he was. We added kaman, and maggette continued to get better. Brand id give a pass again. At this point it was obvious though hed never be an on the court nor off the court leader. However, perhaps still a glimmer of hope he could become a superstar player, albeit a slight hope.

04-05 20 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 37-45. With pretty much the same team as the previous year, and everyone else getting better since they were so young, this was a reasonable increase in wins. However, with the talent on the team it seemed strange that our record was so bad despite being better on paper than teams who finished ahead of us.

05-06 25 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 47-35. FINALLY the clipers put it together. Brand puts up for the first time in his career superstar numbers. On one head the pessimit (i wasnt one of them...) might have said, well, its only because brand had an elite PG and leader that he did so much better. Most of us, including myself, thought that maybe brand was just a late superstar bloomer like a Tmac or something. For the first time he earned his max deal, and i thought this was just the beginning. I didnt attribute all of our success to him though. Any fool could see it was cassell's leadership, plus the best SG (mobley) we have had in the longest time, plus kamans surprisingly great year. But still, this year, i thought brand had turned the corner, and truly became a max player on the level of duncan and garnett.

06-07 20 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks. Clippers record: 40-42. Oh well. The pessmists were right. Brand's outburst wasnt the turning of a corner, it was mostly due to cassell's savvy and leadership. With cassell injured much of the year, Brand was back to his normal self. (nothing wrong with his normal self BTW).

07-08 DNP Clipper Record: TBD. Regardless of his injury, he most likely would have had the same year hes had most of his career, a very impressive 20,10 and 2. However, we wouldnt have gone anywhere as even with him we probably suck more than last year due to cassell still being hobbled, mobley aging faster than a dog, and all the other injuries we have had.

That brings us to this off season. (or next) Do we extend brand with a max deal, thus capping us out, meaning the only new guys we will get on our team are minimum level guys, or guys that we draft? To me, that would be insane. We alrady have 50 million tied up with Kaman. With brand, kaman is at best a 12 and 10 guy. Not my fault we signed kaman for 50 million, but its a done deal, and hes going nowhere. So if we resign brand for max money, we will be paying 27 million a year, more than half of our capspace, for 32 points, 20 rebounds. Couple that with our backup SF, and backup SG Thomas and mobley, making another 15 million, we have almost our full salary cap for our front court and 2 backups.

So then the logic dictates, well, really SHOULD we resign brand for the max? We have a terrible track record of drafting, so we cant necessarily bank on getting a surprise superstar all of a sudden. After this year, we have zero tradeable assets pretty much. Not that we have that great of a trading record anyway, but still, we cant bank on getting a superstar through trade. IF we resign brand, what can we expect? Without an elite PG, we can bank on his dependeable 20/10/2, but his entire career has shown us, thats not enough to even get to the playoffs, let alone win a championship.

Thus the only logical move is, like other teams, try something new. If its broke, then you fix it. If we have a forumla that cant win games for us, you dont resign that forumla for years to come.

Going after an arenas or similar player does not guarantee us anything. But its something new, something that we really dont know if it will work or not. With brand we already know it doesnt work.

If we can resign brand for a kaman like deal, i say youve got to do that. But i dont think anyone here actually believes brand will be looking for a deal that is a lot less than his current one.

If ANYONE here thinks brand is worth the max, and how its going to get us a championship, id love to hear that logic.

yamaneko:what a waste of time writing this!!!

bottom line: Brand is worth EVERY penny they pay him. Excellent offensive player, tremendous defensive player, community activist, overall good citizen who cares about WINNING!

**yamaneko** · 02-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Mark madsen is all of the last things, so does he deserve maybe 6 million a year because of that?

Its not a waste of time writing that, because its painfully obvious some people here just do not realize that brand hasnt done much in his career to take his team to the next level. Hes still one of the top 10 PF's in the game today, but i only reserve max money for guys who are leaders, true superstars, have proven themselves to take a team to the next level, or perhaps if i was a team that was rebuilding, and want to try to bring in someone new to build around, while still having lots of room to fill out the team.

It makes ZERO sense to cap ourselves out for a non superstar player, who has an 8/9 year career of not leading any of his teams anywhere, who has never hit a game winning shot, who has never been a vocal leader of the team, PLUS when it would severly handicapp any future moves we make in free agency or trade.

Doesnt matter how much brand cares about winning, hes not a winner on the court. Hes one of the best citizens this team has ever had, and whatever he does ill always wish him the best and root for him. But for a true fan of the clippers, you have to want a championship for your team. And giving brand max money is in direct opposite of that goal.

PAIDNFULL23 · 02-03-2008, 12:03 PM

You keep your good players and built around them, not let them go, especially the ones that want to play for you, which sadly is rare for the Clippers. If they don't resign EB, how do you now if a player his caliber or better will want to sign with us? Why would Arenas want to sign here without EB when he has already said that he wants to sign with a championship contender.

Look I agree with some of the stuff you are saying like he isn't really clutch or much of a vocal leader, but he is who he is and he is a very good player who gives 100% night in and night out, who you can count on to produce.

If the Clippers make a move or two to trade TT's contract or Mobely's contract(maybe have to include a pick to get it done) and don't resign Maggette, they will have cap space to sign Arenas. Plus why isn't anyone bringing up the fact that the Clippers can tell EB to opt out of his contract to free up cap space to sign Arenas and then re-sign EB, which they can to because they have his bird rights. The Clippers would probably go into the luxury tax but that would be a championship contender.

**HKF** · 02-03-2008, 01:57 PM

People really think Brand will be better coming back off of an Achilles injury and almost 30 years old? Yikes. Brand was never taking the Clippers anywhere. He's a second banana (like Pau) who was paid like a superstar. Good in the community doesn't mean a whole lot, as you pay them to win.

PAIDNFULL23 · 02-03-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKF

People really think Brand will be better coming back off of an Achilles injury and almost 30 years old? Yikes. Brand was never taking the Clippers anywhere. He's a second banana (like Pau) who was paid like a superstar. Good in the community doesn't mean a whole lot, as you pay them to win.

Brand never really relied on his athleticism anyway so I don't think the Achilles injury will significantly effect what he can do on the court.

Plus the people on here who want to keep Brand know that he isn't someone who by himself is gonna carry a team deep into the playoffs, but if he can get a sidekick that is his equal on the perimeter, that should be good enough to help the Clippers become a very good team.

**yamaneko** · 02-03-2008, 03:30 PM

painfull, ill take it one by one.

Quote:

You keep your good players and built around them, not let them go

Thats one of my points...you resign brand, theres no building around at all, since you have no cap leeway to do so thanks to the other contracts. the only guys they can really build around right now are kaman and thornton. You sign brand to max, the only building you do is perhaps a MLE guy. Out of guys signed to MLE the last few years what % are real impact players for their team? This team needs a leader, either via a superstar, or via a superstar mentality player like a cassell. It will be hard to luck into someone like cassell again for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

especially the ones that want to play for you, which sadly is rare for the Clippers.

Before the injury most reports were brand going and testing the market. Doesnt sound like someone who is 100% committed to staying. Also in a recent report it was noted that even after the injury, when its almost obvious he has to stay, he still hasnt come out in the open and say, hey im definiately staying here. Heck, even last year ron artest was saying things like he wanted to end his career in sactown...we cant even get brand to committ to us after an injury where its almost certain he will stay with us? Yet still, even if it was the case, you dont give max money to non max players just because they like to play for you.

Quote:

If they don't resign EB, how do you now if a player his caliber or better will want to sign with us? Why would Arenas want to sign here without EB when he has already said that he wants to sign with a championship contender.

Before we were decent guys like kobe and arenas himself came within inches of signing with us. (if it was that far fetched of an idea, like maybe 10 years ago, they wouldnt even have considered us). If EB opts out, we will be the best team in the league with the capspace to sign someone. Or, one of the only teams that can offer a star for a superstar in trade (brand, maybe maggette, etc.). Look at what guys like gasol, etc. are going for these days.

Quote:

Look I agree with some of the stuff you are saying like he isn't really clutch or much of a vocal leader, but he is who he is and he is a very good player who gives 100% night in and night out, who you can count on to produce.

I agree completely. Heck, elton brand is one of my top 5 clippers of all time, and i think should be the first or second jersey ever retired, if we ever do. But still it just doesnt get me past the point, you dont pay max money to a non max person, especially when it caps you out, and guarantees continued mediocrity.

Quote:

If the Clippers make a move or two to trade TT's contract or Mobely's contract(maybe have to include a pick to get it done) and don't resign Maggette, they will have cap space to sign Arenas. Plus why isn't anyone bringing up the fact that the Clippers can tell EB to opt out of his contract to free up cap space to sign Arenas and then re-sign EB, which they can to because they have his bird rights.

Trading mobley and tt doesnt do us anything for the cap because we have to take equal salary in return. Only way we could do that is to a team with capspace who is rebuilding. And what rebuilding team would want to take on the awful contracts of TT and mobley? If maggette opts out, were still over the cap.

With the second part of what you said, are you sure thats a possibility? I am 70% sure thats not allowed, otherwise we would see things like that happen all the time. I thought you only keep those rights if you keep that salary slot open or something to that effect. If that was a possiblity, why doesnt everyone in the league do something similar?

**HKF** · 02-03-2008, 03:46 PM

In the tough West, if Brand is your best player you are going nowhere.

PAIDNFULL23 · 02-03-2008, 06:35 PM

They are other ways than signing FAs to improve your team. So your argument that by resigning Brand the Clippers can't get much better, is invalid. Am not counting on signing MLE players to improve the team. Actaully most teams improve by the draft and through trades. The Suns are the only real expection.

And when I was saying trade TT or Mobely for an expiring contract, I was taking about right now, not the offseason so they would have cap space if they do that and don't resign Sam and Corey.

View Poll Results: Is this ultimately a better team WITH, or WITHOUT Elton Brand?

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