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Sir I Gotta Go · 08-01-2002, 11:47 PM

He may be as good as Jordan one day, but as of right now he is not even in Jordan's league. Which is not that bad because nobody else is either.

QBF · 08-02-2002, 06:38 AM

Jazzy1,

I totally agree with you. Kobe is a natural scorer and Pippen was a natural facilitator. He was not the pure scorer that Kobe is. But, then again, Magic was a natural facilitator, not a natural scorer, and I would say he was better than Kobe is also.

Pippen was a more efficient offensive player than Kobe is. He was able to score points within the context of the triangle offense and shoot at a fantastic percentage for a perimeter player. This allowed Pippen to co-exist with a pure natural scorer like Jordan and to elevate the play of role players around him. Kobe still tries too often to make his points on his own. This is why Kobe's shooting is still erratic, especially during the playoffs.

Penny played with a young Shaq who was not as good as the Shaq Kobe gets to play with and a coach who was nowhere near as good as Jackson is. Penny also had to contend with the '95-96 Bulls team that essentially destroyed the Magic franchise. Put that Penny on this Laker team, and they would be able to win more than 58 or 59 games a season.

You are also right to criticize Pippen's primary fault, which was his phobia for taking the last shot. Nevertheless, don't forget that it was his defense on Magic Johnson after Game 1 during the 1991 NBA Finals that turned the tide in that series. Jordan had the flashy, hand-switching lay-up, but Pippen turned in the best defensive series against Magic that I have ever seen. He also scored 32 points and grabbed 14 rebounds in the fifth and final game of that series.

Additionally, if you look at Chicago's last championship in 1998, you will see that after Game 4, which put the Bulls up 3-1, Pippen was widely regarded as the MVP of the series. His suffering and aggravation of a back injury (one that I'm not sure his game has ever really recovered from) before Game 5 altered the course of that series. It allowed Utah to win Game 5 and return to Utah, where Jordan made two legendary plays in the final 30 seconds that won himself the MVP. Forgotten is the fact that it was Pippen's gutsy play in Game 6, when he should have been in street clothes, that allowed Chicago to even be in that game. Also forgotten is the fact that if he hadn't hurt his back, there would have been no Game 6, and he would have been the MVP.

Could he have carried Kobe's jock? Easy. Certainly easier than Kobe could carry Jordan's. Kobe shouldn't be compared to team leaders when he is the second fiddle on his own team. As a complementary player, he certainly belongs up there close to Pippen.

**Louie** · 08-02-2002, 07:08 AM

I would say that Kobe will easily go down as a better player player than Pippen. Pippen was a great facilitator, a capable scorer and the best one-on-one defender the games ever seen, but I'd take Kobe over him any day (unless i already had Jordan on my team) because of how he comes up big at the end of the game. Shaq is the first option through the first three quarters, but Kobe gets the rock in the 4th. Reason being you never want a big man as your 4th quarter go-to guy. Big men are easier to double and triple-team, they are easier to foul, and they tend to be worse free throw shooters. Kobe is similar to Jordan in that he comes up big for his team when it counts. I have a few problems with this quote though:

Quote:

things have changed greatly since 98, even back then Mike got his lunch handed in the all star game by whom KOBE BRYANT they gave JORDAN that COURTESY MVP in that game Kobe ade Mike look like he was stuck in the floor, TMAC,Vince Carter, Paul Pierce Emerging all the young guys came into their prime since Mike's been out, How can you say it won't be Kobe who takes that mantle did you look into a crystal ball, maybe that was a cheap shot Didn't mean to take a shot at you, but seriously Kobe has the same knack,there are difference's in their game,some things Kobe does better than Jordan, Kobe has the same ability to hang in the air ,Just Listen to PHIL JACKSON WHO"S COACHED BOTH he say Jordan's stronger,same hops Kobe's a better ball handler

First off, i don't remember Jordan getting his lunch handed to him- I remember that since it was an all-star game noone was really trying except Kobe at first. When Jordan started taking it as a challenge, he started turning it up a notch, but it was still an all-star game for God's sake. Secondly, while some young guys have emerged since Jordan left, some better old guys have faded. Guys like Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, Clyde, Dominique- all those guys played against Jordan and were defeated time and again. In fact, the late 80's and early 90's are considered to be a golden age of basketball because of all the talented players who were in their primes at the same time. The league isn't necesarily worse now, but's it's not tougher. Kobe has never faced a great defensive team like the Knicks, Pistons, or Heat in their heyday. As far as he goes, I would say that he does have the same knack and may be a comparable ballhandler, but I'm sorry, Kobe does not have the same hops or the same ability to hang and twist in the air. Of course Phil's not gonna come out and say that Jordan was better- he doesn't want to alienate his player. Kobe is similar to Jordan in alot of ways, but it is a fact that he doesn't have the unstoppable athleticsim Jordan did. It's not a matter of different eras- Jordan would have been able to do that hand-switch in mid-air move in any era.

KennethTo · 08-02-2002, 07:39 AM

Kobe can jump just as high if not higher IMO, he doesn't have the same hang time though. It is harder to tell though because Kobe uses his mid range fadeaway alot more then Jordan did early in his career(who would go straight at the basket more often). Kobe has tremendous hops though, you can see it when he goes for the baseline reverse and he can jump very high and grab balls out for ally oops... I never really saw jordan leap as high, but like I said they are different players. Kobe's jumps for dunks and such are usually near point blank w/ tremendous elevation, Jordan "glided" more from mid range. Not to say jordan couldn't go as high, his style just made him choose not too... and Kobe's style doesn't allow him to hang as much because he can't grip the ball as well.

He just can't make some of Jordan's moves because he usually has to hold the ball with both hands going up initially, Jordan had huge hands so he could just palm it so he jump at the basket from mid-close range more often. but I think he can jump as well.

For what it's worth, Kobe didn't play against better team defences but he does play against better athletes/players in his respective position(2 spot). The 2 guard is the most loaded position in terms of talent/athlethism right now in the league. While the centers in the league have gone down the drain, the swingmen are better then ever.

**Louie** · 08-02-2002, 08:38 AM

Good analysis, Kennethto. You are right about there being more athletic swingmen nowadays, but Jordan did face some great athletes in his day. Gerald and Dominique Wilkins, Drexler, Dumars, Sprewell (one of the best stoppers anywhere in his day), and later on Eddie Jones. Plus he was facing the greatest wing defender ever, Scottie Pippen, in practice everyday. You make an excellent point about why Jordan was able to do so many moves in the air, but i don't think that Kobe can elevate higher than him going straight up. Remeber than move in the 1991 (or was it 1992?) playoffs against the Knicks where he went around Starks and Oakley and jumped straight up over Ewing and dunked in his face? Other than Carter's dunk over Frde Weiss, that was the highest I ever saw anyone jump up to dunk over someone. Without getting a legitimate team trainor on here to analyze Kobe vs. Jordan athletically I can't prove it, I can only offer evidence. But I'm telling you guys, Kobe is a great, great player, but he simply isn't the athlete MJ was.

beautifulkobe · 08-02-2002, 10:20 AM

OK first QBF Ill start with the allstar game this year.Hmm who was the leader on the west team.Kobe.When he came back in the second quarter after mgradys little splurge the west went on a 25-2 run.The west won.Kobe got MVP.No player has scored more then 30 points since Jordan did it in 1993.Also a nice tidbit Kobe and Julius Erving are the only players in history to finish with mroe then 30 points,5 assists, and 5 rebounds.It wasnt cause kobe hogged the ball it was because his teammates passed it to him and wanted him to shoot.The allstar game although its not a real game showed kobe can easily be a leader.The three games after the all star game(no Shaq) showed this as well.Especially when he killed jordans wizards.He only scored 23 points but had like 15 assists and like 12 rebounds.When they played Memphis without Shaq kobe scored 56 points in three quarters.He could of scored over 70 points that night but phil took him out cause they were up by so much.So kobe loses some games without Shaq.Do people really expect a 23 year old to win 10 games by himself with not so good role players and injured players at the time.

The thing is he doesnt act 23.He acts like hes been in the league for 16 years not 6.Maybe people dont notice but kobe isnt just the intiator,passer,creator,ball handler etc.Hes also the scorer.See kobe has pippens and jordans roles.He has the total game.Thats why so many people call him the best player in the league.Hes not thsecond fiddle espceially when he has so many roles to play on the team.He also plays three positions.Yes he gurads those point gurads like jason kidd,bibby etc. because none else can.Shaq needs kobe to do all this.He cant do it and only kobe can.Its like kobe runs the whole team with everything he does.
I know the offence runs through Shaq but kobe is a huge part of this team.One day kobe will run his own team and hell show people how good he really is if people dont get it.His contract is up in 2004 so who knows where hell go but he will go by himself.They lost those 2 sacremento games because kobe was ill.I bet if he was healthy sacre,ento would of been finished in 5.Kobe is teh co captain of the team.Hes not pippen,penny,etc.Hes kobe.None does what he does rigth now.Mgrady,pierce,carter etc may be better at some things then kobe but kobe is the better overall player.Box Scores dont have to show it all the rolese he plays shows it.

One more thing.Kobe said that hes gonna wait till hes 27.28 to strt jumping high and dunking like crazy.He said he doesnt want to burn out his legs so early.So wait and see....

**Louie** · 08-02-2002, 11:39 AM

Quote:

The thing is he doesnt act 23.He acts like hes been in the league for 16 years not 6.

Exactly. However, whether or not Kobe jumps as high as he can all the time, I'm sure he did in the Sacto series. When your team is on the brink of elimination, you're gonna leave it all on the floor. And I don't think you can say that the Lakers would have won in five had Kobe not been sick, because I really don't think that affected him for more than one game. And that's not even ,mentioning the fact that the Kings were missing Peja thorughout most of the series, and even when he returned, his J was still missing. He could have helped them alot.

jazzy1 · 08-02-2002, 12:01 PM

BeautifulKobe I'm very impressed with your analysis you brought it real strong , Now LOUIE we going to the mat with this one I watched mostly all of Jordans games back in the first 5 years of his career when his was at his best athletically, and I'll give you this he was startling alot of people got on Jordan's jock when he started to win titles I like to watch him in his rawest form which was his first 5 years when he didn't trust his teamates and tried to win games single handedly, But like KENNETH TO and I have been saying you can't put his athleticism in it's proper context because he was a far superior athlete to many of the guys he played against, There WILL NEVER BE AN ATHLETE THAT SUPERIOR ATHLETICALLY EVER AGAIN IN THE NBA because that sort of athleticism is par for the course nowdays,

I disagree with the comment that he didn't play against as great a team defenses like back then ,those teams you mentioned were more physical but not better than most of todays defense's I think now teams domuch better job scouting and preparing using videotape to break down every portion of the game, while the rules don't allow for the grab and pull down defense teams play much better help defense and with the zone limits some of the drives to the basket forays of many years ago thats why Kobe shoots that runner because teams try to set up more charges now like the college game.

Believe Me I think Mike is a better player than Kobe is but I think the gap isn't as far apart as some people may think I also believe before all is said and done KOBE will surpass all of Jordan's records but that won't deter from the greatness of Jordan because Stats aren't an accurate indicator of true greatness, KARL MALONE may one day soon pass KAREEM but is no way the PLAYER KAREEM WAS, FOR MY MONEY MAGIC JOHNSON STILL AND WILL ALWAYS BE THE GREATEST PLAYER TO PLAY THE GAME IN MY EYE'S the effect he had on the game as far as I'm concerned is unmatched,

One more thing in Jordans favor athletically he was a much faster player than Kobe is in the open court I've seen fewer player get to the hole faster than Jordan,MATTER of fact DEAN SMITH said when Jordan got to carolina he ran a 4.5 40 when he left he ran a 4.2 40 that comes fro DEAN SMITH .

The young players are much better now ,I think the game is steadily improving not regressing I think the league's just young but there are more players emerging every year and in about 5 years the league will be back in it's HEYDAY.

**Louie** · 08-02-2002, 01:40 PM

You make alot of really good points. You are right about today's defenses doing a better job preparing, but the 2-time champion Detroit Pistons would be an unbelieveable defensive team in any era, just like the 95-96 Bulls would. Rodman was on par or better athletically with most of todays forwards, Dumars was an athlete as well, and the rest of that team just knew how to get inside your head. If they were in today's league, I bet they'd be the best defensive team anywhere. But overall I agree with alot of your analysis.

**Sean** · 08-02-2002, 01:54 PM

Usually you don't hear from me unless there's a problem, but today I felt the need to give you props. I just wanted to thank you all for keeping this clean & civil. Each of you has your very firm opinions, but you're at least willing to discuss others without animosity or starting little back and forth tirades. Usually these types of threads get closed, but you are all doing a great job of keeping this one alive. Agreeing to disagree is a difficult thing to do. Thanks again.

beautifulkobe · 08-02-2002, 02:00 PM

Louie I respect your opionion.But kobe was sick for like 4 games.Game 2 he could hardly do anything and was collapsing on the court.Game 3 he still had little but no enegy because he had ivs pumped into him.Although at the end of game 3 he got extremely hot in the 4th quarter.Game 4 he was like 50 percent.He really was extremely sick.They needed kobe those games especially at the end.You think if kobe was like how he was in game 1 they would of lost.No way.If they were down in the fourth kobe would do his little heroics in the 4th and save them.It would be done in 5. I know this is old news I just wanted to clear that up.

**Louie** · 08-02-2002, 03:23 PM

I wasn't trying to say that he wasn't sick-I'm sure he was- but I didn't think it affected him that much in any game other than game 2 because he's a determined player who rose to the occasion. I guess we have no way of really knowing how much it affected his performance in those other games, but he looked pretty good to me, anyway. You could very well be right though, he probably wouldn't have let on how he was really feeling.

QBF · 08-03-2002, 10:19 AM

BeautifulKobe, you're right. Kobe is the best swingman today, better than McGrady, Jordan, Pierce and Carter. However, I disagree that the swingmen today are better than the swingmen in, say, 1995. The 23-year-old Penny and 22-year-old Grant Hill were fabulously-skilled players in the Kobe/McGrady class, and you also had Pippen and Jordan playing at an even higher level. Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell and Gary Payton were in their primes, and Clyde Drexler was aging ever so gracefully.

Additionally, you have to consider that Jordan had to fight through so many tougher team defenses than Kobe has had to face. I'm sorry, but the Knicks and Heat were so much more brutal than the Kings and Mavericks, LA's top challengers today that Kobe has to face today. The Eastern Conference has always been more physical, hasn't it?

Additionally, when you look at the flood of quality centers in their primes in the mid-90's, you realize how much more difficult it was to get to the hoop then than it is today. Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Motumbo, Shaq and Smits composed a group of centers that would dominate in today's NBA. Pierce, McGrady and Carter's teams would be fodder in the playoffs in the mid-1990's, just like Grant Hill's and Penny's (after Shaq) were. Kobe would be the only swingman to survive against the giants of the mid-1990's, and that is because he has Shaq.

This is why my respect for Jordan and Pippen is so high, because in the middle of an era that should have been dominated by centers, they dominated. With a center named Luc Longley, they toyed with the violent defenses, super-talented centers and young, hot-shot swingmen (Penny, Hill) that challenged them.

Once again, I go back to the fact that when Pippen was alone, with no Jordan, he won 55 games in that league and went down to the wire as league MVP. He was stopped by Hugh Hollins from pulling off what might have otherwise been considered the most unexpected season in the history of the NBA. His year without Jordan was the most versatile performance I have ever seen, doing for the Bulls even more than Jason Kidd did for the Nets this year. It proved for me how phenomenal Pippen's game was and how underrated he had been. Prior to that season, no NBA team had ever suffered the loss of a superstar and won even 50 games.

I just don't believe Kobe has reached that point yet. He is playing in a league that celebrates and encourages pure scorers, even though the league is dominated by one big man in the center. Until Jordan, we all knew that pure scorers could not win titles. I believe that holds true today. It took a super-versatile swingman in Pippen playing with Jordan to overturn the conventional wisdom, which is that centers win championships. That conventional wisdom is back today as Shaq wins title after title, and I don't believe Kobe is good enough to change it yet. He is very young and, if his game continues to grow, someday might be.

I agree with you that Kobe's game is kind of a cross between Jordan and Pippen. Still, he is not as great a scorer or athlete as Jordan or as versatile and efficient as Pippen.

Jordan led his team to titles, which Kobe has not done. Therefore, I rate Jordan ahead of Kobe.

Pippen, Penny and Hill were all swingmen who led their teams. Pippen was the best of that bunch. Kobe has not led an NBA team through a season yet, and, when he has for short stretches during Shaq's increasing injuries, the results have been mixed. Therefore, at this point, I don't see how we can fairly put him above the Penny/Hill class. I have an open mind, though, and believe his game can potentially grow beyond theirs.

**Pinball** · 08-03-2002, 12:01 PM

But I can't agree with the athleticism notion. I think Kobe is as athletic as any player in the league. When I talk about athleticism I factor in a couple of different things:
1.Leaping ability-I think Kobe is as good as leaper as almost anyone in the league. Fact he he can sky and I've seen him head level with the rim a couple of times. The reason people might not think he is as athletic as some other guys is due primarily to the size of his hands. He's only got average sized hands whereas MJ and Vince have huge hands. In addition to allowing them to pull off more creative dunks, this allows them to palm the ball. This is critical. They can hold the ball out and away from the defender, get off better shots with one hand, and pumk fake with their hands giving them a big advantage.
2.Speed/Quickness-No one is in AI's class here but as far as players over 6-6 are concerned Kobe can run with anyone. I think he is 1 step faster than Vince and a half a step faster than Tmc and every bit as fast as MJ. When Dean Smith said that blurb about MJ going from a 4.5 to a 4.2 he was probably referring to how MJ evolved so much physically as an athlete. There is no way he ran a 4.2 40. AI was a football player in HS and was timed vetween a 4.5-4.6 40 so you get what I mean. Also I've seen Kobe on fast breaks outrun guys like Kidd and Tony Parker. He isn't the fastest player in the NBA but he is as fast or faster than anyone his size.
3.Agility/Flexibility-This is where MJ had the biggest advantage. Same with Kobe. I think he is one of the most agile 6-7 guards I've ever seen. His lateral movement is exceptional and he is like a contortionist in midair. Also his game is very smooth like MJs. To me Vince is a little bit hurky jurky and a bit stiff. But Kobe looks very graceful out there.

The biggest defense I can make for today's players when comparing them to MJ is that the athletes in MJ's day and age were inferior to these guys. Sure you had guys Dr. J and Dominique and Clyde who were exceptions but after watching ESPN classic games countless times I get the impression that these guys are faster, quicker, and more athletic than those guys were. And Jordan was a 21st century athlete going up against inferior athletes. He could blow by them at will or jump over them anytime. That is the reason why you had teams like NY and DET playing such physical ball. They had no one who could guard him so they beat him up. Today you can't just blow by guys or outleap them. You have to get creative. You have to use pump fakes, crossovers, jab steps, fadeaways, ..etc just to get a shot off. That is the biggest reason why I thought Jordan looked so athletic back then. Comparing him to Kobe now, I'd say Kobe has to get stronger to be as effective as Jordan. Jordan could outmuscle anyone at his position and it helped defensively as well. Kobe is strong but not nearly in MJ's class yet. The other advantage that Jordan had on Kobe was huge hands. But Kobe can't change that. Basically that is just my opinion.

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