mqtcelticsfan

Well, stats do show you how well a baseball player, you know, played baseball.

essbee

They don't show you everything. Again the question, how closely do you follow the Oakland A's? Especially in terms of discussing the value of his leadership I feel you're overvaluing stats. How can you say his leadership wasn't as important as his obp if you don't know anything about the team? I don't really get your argument - it sounds more like a fantasy baseball argument.

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mqtcelticsfan

Well, I follow the Braves, but I use the line of thinking that leadership is not nearly as important to the game of baseball as talent and performance on the field. Even though I don't know anything about the emotions of the As, I know that it's very tough to replace his numbers. However, I'm not all that against the trade, because they got good pieces in return, and they would not have been able to afford Swisher, which is why they probably made the trade in the first place.

essbee

If leadership wasn't as important as talent the Cleveland Indians teams of the 90's would have won a lot more than they did. Leadership was also the main reason the Yankees won those 4 recent WS titles, just as much as their great talent level.

Also the idea that the a's couldn't afford swisher is wrong, there's a difference between not being able to afford somebody and being unwilling to pay people.

As someone who not only grew up in Oakland but pays 120 bucks for mlb. tv just so I can watch all the a's games out of market online you'll have to take my word for it that this situation is a little more complex than how many times nick swisher walked.

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essbee

Dan Haren update:

3-0 1.80 ERA 19k 4bb .88 WHIP.

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mqtcelticsfan

If by just as much, you mean not nearly as much, I'd agree. Leadership is important to a certain extent, but you can't lead garbage into a WS title.

essbee

Considering you've been addressing the quality of Nick Swisher's leadership on a team that you obviously don't watch at all it's a bit hard to take your posts seriously. And by "at all" I mean it's clear you've really never watched the team play in the last 5 years for any significant period of time.

As far as leadership being not nearly as important, check the effects of Pudge Rodriguez, Josh Beckett and Jack McKean leading the much less talented Marlins over the mighty Yankees in the World Series and get back to me. Not to say that Juan Pierre and Luis Castillo aren't world beaters or anything.

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mqtcelticsfan

First of all, the Marlins won 91 games that year. They had Lee, Pudge and Lowell, along with some great pitching, and even guys like Pierre and Castillo had OBPs above .360, which led to runs. They were a good enough team to win. Also, did Beckett really lead his team, as much as he simply helped them tremendously by throwing a shutout? Because I bet the shutout was way more important than how nice of a guy he might be.

Seriously, it's a great bonus if some players on your team are great guys, but nothing helps a team more than great performances by the players. Swisher's great on-field production is what was most valuable to the As last year, and I don't have to see a single Oakland game to know this.

essbee

it's not clear why you're associating leadership with being a nice guy but that's an incorrect view. Beckett's greatest leadership that year came against the giants where he set the tone in not only the way he talked about facing barry bonds but the way he talked about facing all hitters (the giants were heavily favored in that series). Jack McKean turned the team over to pudge for his leadership and asked him to carry the team, this is something that was repeated constantly throughout that season by not only McKean but other players. Clearly you refuse to acknowledge that the yankees were a much more talented team that year and still got spanked because it doesn't squeeze into whatever argument you're trying to make.

The fact that you're saying you don't have to see a single a's game to know anything about what swisher did for the team or what his leadership meant to the team should end the discussion. If you don't know anything about the team there's nothing for you to say here.

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mqtcelticsfan

I'm simply saying that unless Nick Swisher helped the other players with the ability to hit or pitch, his biggest contribution was in his performance.

essbee

He was a huge help to Milton Bradley among others as already was explained, his main contribution was in helping Milton to get along with everyone for the first time in his career. Kind of hard to minimize the importance of that.

FYI Nick (as he's known to do) is in a hitting slump, is down to hitting .232 (he'll bring it up when he goes on a tear at some point) while the A's drew 3 walks in the first inning alone yesterday and are atop their division early in the year.

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mqtcelticsfan

Who cares if Milton Bradley gets along with others? Did Swisher help Bradley to hit better? Does Bradley hit more HRs because he went bowling with Rich Harden and Swisher?

As for this slump, he still has a fantastic OBP of .388, so who cares what his average is?

essbee

You make some weird posts that make me question how much you watch the games we're talking about. Milton as a cancer was disastrous for teams, when he came to the a's swisher's ability to get him integrated into a tight knit clubhouse was huge. Again though if you don't know anything about the team what exactly do you want to argue?

Average is important because extra base hits are more valuable than walks, not only for driving in runs but for the fact that walks only get you to first base. He also has a habit of striking out a lot during his big slumps which is especially problematic since he's hitting leadoff for them. The obp argument for leadoff hitters really works a lot better when you're talking about someone with base-stealing speed. Again, i'm not sure what you're talking about.

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mqtcelticsfan

I completely disagree with the idea that a guy can ruin a baseball team, like you're claiming Bradley did before he met Swisher. Are the players that damn pathetic that they hit worse with Bradley on the team? Really, baseball is a sport where you try to score runs by being good at baseball. If you can in fact hit the baseball, who gives a **** who your teammates are?

As for BA, it's a useless stat when you have slugging percentage and OBP. After looking at the stats, it would appear that for an OF, Swisher's slump has affected him, but as a lead-off hitter, he's still getting on base enough to contribute, which is why his OPS is slightly above average, even with a low slugging percentage. Has he been all that good? Hell no, but he certainly hasn't been bad at all. He's simply been average, and that's in the middle of a slump, which tend to happen to all MLB players.

essbee

The people who have played sports with those kinds of people seem to strongly disagree with you. The Giants kept a locker empty for Rob Nen for years after he left, and it's not because of just what he did on the field. The Giants removed all barry bonds home run chase related stuff from the park, said they were looking forward to playing in a new environment without the drama, and said they were glad to be moving on, and that's despite what he did on the field.

No it's not lol.

No idea what you're saying here, every time we talk about players you sound like you don't watch any of the games. Again, obp from the leadoff spot isn't as important unless your leadoff hitter runs (in which case it's vital - see juan pierre getting benched for reference).

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