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Old 11-17-2012, 06:11 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Total BS. Trout came up to the Majors. Pujols was hitting .226 and didn't hit a HR until a week after Trout was up. I attribute more of our season saver and then season ender with Trumbo. He had monster first half and then a terrible second. Blame it on the HR derby, who knows. And since you love RBIs so much, Trumbo had 8 the first month despite hitting .326. It would have been helpful if someone was on base for him. Oh wait, that would have been Trout.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:12 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

And ive said many many many times Trout is amazing player and had better overall season then Cabrera. I just dont think you need the WAR Stat to tell you this
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:14 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Total BS. Trout came up to the Majors. Pujols was hitting .226 and didn't hit a HR until a week after Trout was up. I attribute more of our season saver and then season ender with Trumbo. He had monster first half and then a terrible second. Blame it on the HR derby, who knows. And since you love RBIs so much, Trumbo had 8 the first month despite hitting .326. It would have been helpful if someone was on base for him. Oh wait, that would have been Trout.
Buddy...Ive explain the RBI thing. Sure you need a guy to get on Base or you need to knock yourself in so its not the greatest thing ever. What ive trying to say is lets not act like a RBI is worthless. You cant Tie in Baseball

But you cant fight with me about Tigers being alot worse if they didnt have Cabrera. The Angels would still have Trumbo/Pujols/Hunter/Morales all 4 are allstars at some point. Tigers would have Fielder/Young/Jackson/Boesch?. Terrible compared to the Angels

Its nice someone debating me and resorting to name calling and bashing...
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:18 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Dear God move on Buddy. Holy shit this is getting incredible sad

And didnt i just explain why i think Cabrera pasted Trout for MVP? The last month of the season will tell you the reason

We cant all be lemmings. Some of us have our own opinion stop trying to change mine
You mean this?

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Gonna be a sad day for Baseball when a guy that wins the Triple Crown + Leads his team to the World Series doesnt win the MVP award because of the f'n WAR stat
I thought this was your explanation to why Cabrera won the MVP, winning the triple crown and leading his team to the world series. Which btw, isn't even true considering he didn't lead his team to the world series, he led his team to the playoffs just like 7 other players that led their team to the playoffs. In fact, 2 other players could have led their team to the playoffs, their teams just happened to not be playing in the central division.


You are correct that it is an opinion. Nobody is trying to change your opinion, we're just saying it's a dumb opinion. You're the one asking people to move on from this topic and I'm sorry to say that in order to do that you would have to retract that dumb opinion. You don't have to do it, but if that's what you want that's what you will have to do.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:21 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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You are correct that it is an opinion. Nobody is trying to change your opinion, we're just saying it's a dumb opinion. You're the one asking people to move on from this topic and I'm sorry to say that in order to do that you would have to retract that dumb opinion. You don't have to do it, but if that's what you want that's what you will have to do.
Hey buddy i dont call your opinion dumb. But you can call mine that if you want. I can think Miggy was the MVP. He had a incredible 2nd half of Baseball. His last month was amazing and that why he passed Trout for me

Cheers friends!

My first post was more bashing the WAR stat. Not the reason i think Miggy should be MVP
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:25 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

RBIs are worthless, Runs are not. Average with runs in scoring position, not worthless, Sacrifice outs, not worthless.

You can't make an argument based on presumptions on how good a lineup could be. If that was the case #1 the Angels should have been in the playoffs and #2 a 21 year old shouldn't have hit .326 score 129 runs and stole 49 bases either.

In addition, I revert back to Hobojoe's post because it's true. Everything that shouldn't have gone the Angels way this season didn't.
Quote:
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Is it Trout's fault Albert Pujols had the lowest batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage and fewest home runs and runs scored in his 12 year career? Is it Trout's fault Vernon Wells sucks? Dan Haren having the worst ERA in his career -- Trout's fault? There are reasons the Angels didn't make the playoffs, none of which are Mike Trout's play. There are also reasons the Tigers made the playoffs that have absolutely nothing to do with Miguel Cabrera.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:26 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Hey buddy i dont call your opinion dumb. But you can call mine that if you want. I can think Miggy was the MVP. He had a incredible 2nd half of Baseball. His last month was amazing and that why he passed Trout for me

Cheers friends!

My first post was more bashing the WAR stat. Not the reason i think Miggy should be MVP
Well, you did ask people to move on from bashing you. But whatever, I'm glad this is settled.

btw mods, since he clearly isn't offended to people calling his opinions dumb, I don't see why it would be considered a personal attack when people do so.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:28 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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btw mods, since he clearly isn't offended to people calling his opinions dumb, I don't see why it would be considered a personal attack when people do so.
Ah it doesnt matter to me. Im a 26 y/o man and this is a internet message board. Could care less if you attack me

Im here to support my opinion. If someone has to resort to name calling then thats on them
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:07 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Is it Trout's fault Albert Pujols had the lowest batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage and fewest home runs and runs scored in his 12 year career? Is it Trout's fault Vernon Wells sucks? Dan Haren having the worst ERA in his career -- Trout's fault? There are reasons the Angels didn't make the playoffs, none of which are Mike Trout's play. There are also reasons the Tigers made the playoffs that have absolutely nothing to do with Miguel Cabrera.
I'd like to emphasize "none of which are Mike Trout's play."

I disagree. If the reason the Angels were so good for so long had to do with Mike Trout, and his incredible play in May and June and luminescent play in July.... And they weren't very good without Trout in April... Doesn't it completely stand to reason that had he not been merely a decent hitter at the plate in the last two months of the year, they could have won the games necessary to make the playoffs?

If you go by the argument that the entire reason they were where they were is Mike Trout, and he is the most valuable player on that team in 2012: then the fact that he seriously fell off as a hitter, to easily 100 points shy of his May/June OPS (to say nothing of July's insanity) is a sign that it was his poor play in those two months that cost them a few wins, and the playoffs.

If as he goes, they go... then as he went, they went.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:05 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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I'd like to emphasize "none of which are Mike Trout's play."

I disagree. If the reason the Angels were so good for so long had to do with Mike Trout, and his incredible play in May and June and luminescent play in July.... And they weren't very good without Trout in April... Doesn't it completely stand to reason that had he not been merely a decent hitter at the plate in the last two months of the year, they could have won the games necessary to make the playoffs?

If you go by the argument that the entire reason they were where they were is Mike Trout, and he is the most valuable player on that team in 2012: then the fact that he seriously fell off as a hitter, to easily 100 points shy of his May/June OPS (to say nothing of July's insanity) is a sign that it was his poor play in those two months that cost them a few wins, and the playoffs.

If as he goes, they go... then as he went, they went.
"Poor play" is a relative term though. It's not like Trout was a bad player in August and September, he was still one of the best players in baseball. He's a leadoff hitter for God's sake and his OPS was around .850 those months. If the expectation is for your leadoff hitter to have an OPS of 1.000, play gold glove centerfield, steal 10+ bases a month and score 40 runs a month, then yes Trout's play in August and September cost the Angels a playoff spot. What about the fact that the Tigers were mediocre for the first four months of the season and wouldn't have sniffed a playoff berth in any other division in baseball? Cabrera was consistent throughout the entire season, which suggests that the late season surge had more to do with his teammates finally picking up their play (Scherzer, Fielder, Dirks and Fister in particular). Also, doesn't having the reigning MVP as a teammate hurt Cabrera's case?
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:35 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Maybe this argument makes sense if you were in the AL Central where the only way into the playoff is win the division, but otherwise no, not it doesn't. You're chasing TWO teams, one of which was historically hot. You can't play both on a nightly basis.

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If as he goes, they go... then as he went
And this is a crock of crap.
Pre-Allstar: 48-38, 3.61ERA; .268 team avg.
Post-Allstar Game team ERA: 41-35, 4.48ERA; .281 team avg.

Sorry hitting .312 18HR 43RBI with 23SB after the allstar game isn't going enough for our leadoff hitter. How foolish of me.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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"Poor play" is a relative term though. It's not like Trout was a bad player in August and September, he was still one of the best players in baseball. He's a leadoff hitter for God's sake and his OPS was around .850 those months. If the expectation is for your leadoff hitter to have an OPS of 1.000, play gold glove centerfield, steal 10+ bases a month and score 40 runs a month, then yes Trout's play in August and September cost the Angels a playoff spot. What about the fact that the Tigers were mediocre for the first four months of the season and wouldn't have sniffed a playoff berth in any other division in baseball? Cabrera was consistent throughout the entire season, which suggests that the late season surge had more to do with his teammates finally picking up their play (Scherzer, Fielder, Dirks and Fister in particular). Also, doesn't having the reigning MVP as a teammate hurt Cabrera's case?

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Maybe this argument makes sense if you were in the AL Central where the only way into the playoff is win the division, but otherwise no, not it doesn't. You're chasing TWO teams, one of which was historically hot. You can't play both on a nightly basis.



And this is a crock of crap.
Pre-Allstar: 48-38, 3.61ERA; .268 team avg.
Post-Allstar Game team ERA: 41-35, 4.48ERA; .281 team avg.

Sorry hitting .312 18HR 43RBI with 23SB after the allstar game isn't going enough for our leadoff hitter. How foolish of me.
You both took what I said in the wrong manner. I never said he played poorly. I merely said: if his otherworldly play was the reason they jumped back into the race, and then they came up just short after he SIGNIFICANTLY cooled down... does it not stand to reason that had he not fallen to a level significantly below what his *average* performance seems to be, they would have likely made the playoffs?

My primary argument remains, though, that anybody saying he was robbed is failing to take into account that the largest bulk of Trout's value statistically, both in rate statistics and counting statistics, was compiled in one tiny 24 game span. People say "wins count no matter what time of season they happen" and I agree... But to simplify this, which would you rather have: a guy who goes a historic 5 for 5 with 5 3R-homers in one game... Or a guy who manages 5 3R-homers over a 10 game stretch? Player number two is going to win you more games.

Mike Trout and Cabrera were, over the course of the ENTIRE SEASON, much closer in terms of performance than a lot of statistics nuts want to say, because they all conveniently ignore the fact that so much of his value was piled up in one absolutely legendary month - all of his numbers were massively spiked by one short span, whereas Cabrera did his damage over a more consistent season-long barrage. And with two players that are this close in value, it isn't an upset that Cabrera won on narrative.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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You both took what I said in the wrong manner. I never said he played poorly. I merely said: if his otherworldly play was the reason they jumped back into the race, and then they came up just short after he SIGNIFICANTLY cooled down... does it not stand to reason that had he not fallen to a level significantly below what his *average* performance seems to be, they would have likely made the playoffs?
No, that was the pitching staff and Trumbo completing falling off the map. Thus my last post. I haven't even referenced bullpen era yet. Can you name the members of the Angels bullpen? Because I can hardly do it and I watch 100-120 games a year. This is precisely why WAR keeps coming up because it's one of the few ways to quantifiably measure performance when you're dealing with Apples and Oranges (Leadoff vs middle of the order)

Trout's candidacy for MVP goes beyond batting and that's what Cabrera touters seem to exclude from this equation. Cabrera was a one-dimensional MVP candidate, Trout was Mulch-dimensional. So what the voters decided that Cabrera one-dimension was superior to trouts all around game which I significantly disagree with.

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My primary argument remains, though, that anybody saying he was robbed is failing to take into account that the largest bulk of Trout's value statistically, both in rate statistics and counting statistics, was compiled in one tiny 24 game span. People say "wins count no matter what time of season they happen" and I agree... But to simplify this, which would you rather have: a guy who goes a historic 5 for 5 with 5 3R-homers in one game... Or a guy who manages 5 3R-homers over a 10 game stretch? Player number two is going to win you more games.
This is a terrible argument. Trout's bat might have 'ccoled' down, but his defense and stolen bases didn't. Trout could go 0-4 and still be the reason won a game. In addition, those 24 games count just the same as the rest of them.

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Mike Trout and Cabrera were, over the course of the ENTIRE SEASON, much closer in terms of performance than a lot of statistics nuts want to say, because they all conveniently ignore the fact that so much of his value was piled up in one absolutely legendary month - all of his numbers were massively spiked by one short span, whereas Cabrera did his damage over a more consistent season-long barrage. And with two players that are this close in value, it isn't an upset that Cabrera won on narrative.
Cabrera won with the triple crown. Cabrera probably doesn't win the triple crown with a great 20 something games in September either. But he did. Enjoy your AL Pennant banner. I'm done with this argument now and forever.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:32 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

It is an incredibly silly argument. There are actual voters that went on record on ESPN and elsewhere saying that Cabrera winning the triple crown swayed their votes, and here we have a bunch people who couldn't vote on this thing trying to tell us otherwise. Had Trout hit 4 or 5 more base hits Cabrera wouldn't have won that triple crown. Had Josh Hamilton or Curtis Granderson hit a couple more homeruns, again, no triple crown. Winning the triple crown requires a lot of luck and that's why it's a rare feat. Statistically speaking Cabrera was better last year and correct me if I'm wrong the year before.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:45 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Agreed on both counts - I was surprised Verlander won the MVP last year, because I figured Cabrera would take away plenty of his votes. Frankly - the statements by Cris that "those 24 games" count as much as any other completely sidesteps my value over time vs. value packed into limited games argument, but... whatever. :P I maintain that looking at all factors - they were equally strong candidates, and wouldn't have been at all angry had Trout won the MVP. People going up in arms over Cabrera winning as though it is some sort of sports holocaust are simply not looking at the entire picture. Cabrera is hardly an unworthy MVP candidate deserving of being slammed like he is, this is ridiculous.
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