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Old 11-18-2012, 07:49 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Is there any website that does fielding splits by month? Visually Cabrera in September was miles upon miles ahead of his April performance at third. I would love to see monthly splits, but BBRef doesn't seem to have them.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:30 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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"those 24 games" count as much as any other completely sidesteps my value over time vs. value packed into limited games argument, but... whatever. :P
Josh Hamilton won a MVP couple years back without even playing the last month and a half. Historically people looked at the final stats rather than monthly splits, just so happens in this case people took the mystique of the triple crown rather than actual facts.

Not saying that Cabrera isn't a worthy candidate, he had a good year this year and his performance is comparable to those that have won before. Trout simply had a better year than him and should have won the award this year.

As for Cabrera's defense he's still one of the worst if not the worst 3rd baseman in the game. He might have made strides but the guy is still a terrible 3rd baseman. Trout on the other hand should be a perennial gold glove winner for the next decade. Factor that into the equation it's not even close.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:50 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Cabrera is hardly an unworthy MVP candidate deserving of being slammed like he is, this is ridiculous.
Is this a joke? This has to be a joke right? The first page of this thread is exactly what is all over the internet, not the other way around. Essentially the argument against Trout is the argument against WAR, yet no one discusses how his performance affected the team.

I would hardly say that undermining an achievement is slamming a players candidacy. And to be honest, in October more or less EVERY Tigers have seem to think Trout was some average AAA ball player who had a terrible offense year.

I said I was done with this argument before but now I really am.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Josh Hamilton won a MVP couple years back without even playing the last month and a half. Historically people looked at the final stats rather than monthly splits, just so happens in this case people took the mystique of the triple crown rather than actual facts.

Not saying that Cabrera isn't a worthy candidate, he had a good year this year and his performance is comparable to those that have won before. Trout simply had a better year than him and should have won the award this year.

As for Cabrera's defense he's still one of the worst if not the worst 3rd baseman in the game. He might have made strides but the guy is still a terrible 3rd baseman. Trout on the other hand should be a perennial gold glove winner for the next decade. Factor that into the equation it's not even close.
"The guy is still a terrible 3rd baseman." - Virtually everyone saying this didn't watch him this year. He was abysmal in April/May. Truly abysmal. Abandon the plan and go elsewhere abysmal. But by the end of the season it basically came down to the lack of range. Otherwise - he is as capable as any third baseman at turning the 5-4-3 double play, he didn't botch the easy stuff, and has a fantastic arm. The only real argument against him as a third baseman by the end of the year, by anyone that actually watched him play, was: range.

End of story. Range. That is IT. I'm guessing you guys (finally) watched some Tigers games when the playoffs came around. Did you at any point, can any of you point out for me any point where you watched Miguel Cabrera play third base in the playoffs and thought "Man he should not be playing third base..." My guess is: you can't! He did NOT make errors. He MADE every throw, STRONGLY. There are a lot of idiots outside of Detroit that spent the entirety of 2012 spouting the same "MIGUEL CABRERA CAN'T PLAY DEFENSE" rhetoric, because they kept hearing it from the talking heads.

Anyone that says Miguel Cabrera was worse than average at third base by the end of the season clearly didn't watch Miguel Cabrera play baseball. Period.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:35 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Originally Posted by Cris View Post
Is this a joke? This has to be a joke right? The first page of this thread is exactly what is all over the internet, not the other way around. Essentially the argument against Trout is the argument against WAR, yet no one discusses how his performance affected the team.

I would hardly say that undermining an achievement is slamming a players candidacy. And to be honest, in October more or less EVERY Tigers have seem to think Trout was some average AAA ball player who had a terrible offense year.

I said I was done with this argument before but now I really am.
I have no argument against WAR aside from the fact that WAR is a counting stat. Counting stats rarely tell the whole story.

Truly curious, unrelated to the argument: can anyone find online a site that posts monthly WAR splits? I'd love to see Trout's...
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:54 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Is this a joke? This has to be a joke right? The first page of this thread is exactly what is all over the internet, not the other way around. Essentially the argument against Trout is the argument against WAR, yet no one discusses how his performance affected the team.
I think Trout performance towards the end of the season was one of the reason the Angles missed the playoffs. Pujols,Hunter and Morales where all hitting well and Trout and Trumbo started to burnout. Seriously Trout September was terrible. If it wasnt for his amazing July we wouldnt even be talking about this.

And If i remember correctly Angels pitching staff was amazing in September. Even Dan Haren was 3-2 with a ERA close to under 3. Trout 5hr 6rbi 256avg in September...Im betting Angels would have been in the playoffs it he was better

Cabrera on the other hand was amazing every month and he was there to keep Tigers pushing to the playoffs every months. Seriously 20+ RBI every month is incredible.

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Old 11-21-2012, 08:55 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Seriously people look at Cabrera last 2 months of the season. And then look at Trouts. When both teams where fighting for the playoffs and tell me who deserves MVP. Trout was amazing for 4 month of the season. Cabrera was amazing the whole season

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Old 11-21-2012, 09:11 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Seriously people look at Cabrera last 2 months of the season. And then look at Trouts. When both teams where fighting for the playoffs and tell me who deserves MVP. Trout was amazing for 4 month of the season. Cabrera was amazing the whole season

It doesn't matter what the numbers were all season, the counting stats are in favor of Trout. Overwhelming consensus appears to be: Cabrera robbed Trout, and is a completely undeserving MVP. The talking heads at ESPN say it, and so everyone spouts it. I'm completely reasonable, I would not have complained had Trout won it. He was fantastic. My main issue is with the fact that all we are hearing in the media is that this is Hamelin over ManRam 1994 ROY all over again. We'll be regretting it for decades.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:20 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
"The guy is still a terrible 3rd baseman." - Virtually everyone saying this didn't watch him this year. He was abysmal in April/May. Truly abysmal. Abandon the plan and go elsewhere abysmal. But by the end of the season it basically came down to the lack of range. Otherwise - he is as capable as any third baseman at turning the 5-4-3 double play, he didn't botch the easy stuff, and has a fantastic arm. The only real argument against him as a third baseman by the end of the year, by anyone that actually watched him play, was: range.

End of story. Range. That is IT. I'm guessing you guys (finally) watched some Tigers games when the playoffs came around. Did you at any point, can any of you point out for me any point where you watched Miguel Cabrera play third base in the playoffs and thought "Man he should not be playing third base..." My guess is: you can't! He did NOT make errors. He MADE every throw, STRONGLY. There are a lot of idiots outside of Detroit that spent the entirety of 2012 spouting the same "MIGUEL CABRERA CAN'T PLAY DEFENSE" rhetoric, because they kept hearing it from the talking heads.

Anyone that says Miguel Cabrera was worse than average at third base by the end of the season clearly didn't watch Miguel Cabrera play baseball. Period.
You can rant like a child all you want but the bottom line is every sabermetric stat you can find that's out there has Cabrera ranked dead last or near dead last of players who played 3rd base for more than let's say 800 to 1000 innings, which is roughly 120 games. Your argument that Cabrera is a good fielder because he doesn't look out of place when you watch him on TV is just laughable. There are specific stats that measure defense, stats that are used by people who actually work in MLB front offices that proves that Cabrera is a terrible fielder.

Again, take your MVP award and be happy that the people who voted the thing refused to keep up with the progression of the game. People that have realized that perhaps just watching a guy without keeping stats isn't enough to analyze the value of a player.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:22 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Ya sucking in the month that i need him the most is what i want out of my MVP player. Trout had a very good season but if your looking at August and September the months that matter the most in a playoff race he was just average. Hell Nick Swisher and Ichiro where better then him in the last 2 months

But Hey them first 3 months are all that matters!
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:23 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

btw, you two should go listen to Keith Law's interview on baseball today

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8639534

He pretty much covered all angles and hopefully he can talk some sense into you two homers. If not, take it from me and just be happy he won.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:26 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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btw, you two should go listen to Keith Law's interview on baseball today

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8639534

He pretty much covered all angles and hopefully he can talk some sense into you two homers. If not, take it from me and just be happy he won.


Im a Yankees fan and hate the Tigers. Your a bandwagon fan that came in here to bitch about Trout losing and barely has ever posted in the Baseball forum before

Keep jumping the Wagon your bound to find a new one next year
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:30 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Im a Yankees fan and hate the Tigers. Your a bandwagon fan that came in here to bitch about Trout losing and barely has ever posted in the Baseball forum before

Keep jumping the Wagon your bound to find a new one next year
This just makes you much worse than Chriswoj. I at least understand him being a Tigers fan and having a homer's angle. Being a Blue Jays fan I would do the same (albeit not to this extreme) for Jose Bautista. The only angle for you here is idiocy, I can't break it down any more than that. But it's fine, don't listen to Keith Law, I doubt you can understand a solid argument anyway.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:36 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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This just makes you much worse than Chriswoj. I at least understand him being a Tigers fan and having a homer's angle. Being a Blue Jays fan I would do the same (albeit not to this extreme) for Jose Bautista. The only angle for you here is idiocy, I can't break it down any more than that. But it's fine, don't listen to Keith Law, I doubt you can understand a solid argument anyway.
Just gave you a solid one and you have yet to. You spouting the same shit you hear on ESPN and read on ESPN

Trout was WASNT GOOD in the last few months of Baseball. I take the whole season in to effect not the first 3 months. Cabrera pushed his team into the playoffs. Trout being leadoff hitter and the best player on the Angels may have cost the Angels there playoff chances with a terrible September

If Trout had a September like the April May or July then this would be a different story

Keep quoting and linking every ESPN article you find. You have seriously done nothing but talk about what ESPN thinks. Think for you dam self buddy
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:38 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

well Chriswoj, at least you convinced somebody on this forum. Can't say he's that bright but he agrees with you.

And it's Angels not Angles. Common mistake, not trying to be grammar police.
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