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Old 11-21-2012, 10:39 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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well Chriswoj, at least you convinced somebody on this forum. Can't say he's that bright but he agrees with you.
Yup keep quoting ESPN Buddy. You have not had 1 original thought this whole time. Your pretty much copying and pasting off of ESPN

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And it's Angels not Angles. Common mistake, not trying to be grammar police.
Just noticed i was doing that. Thanks for the heads up
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:45 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

Also not saying this should be a reason he won MVP. But Cabrera had no problem moving to 3rd so Tigers could sign Prince Fielder. He was happy to move to somewhere he knew he wasnt gonna be very good at
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:53 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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I think Trout performance towards the end of the season was one of the reason the Angles missed the playoffs. Pujols,Hunter and Morales where all hitting well and Trout and Trumbo started to burnout. Seriously Trout September was terrible. If it wasnt for his amazing July we wouldnt even be talking about this.

And If i remember correctly Angels pitching staff was amazing in September. Even Dan Haren was 3-2 with a ERA close to under 3. Trout 5hr 6rbi 256avg in September...Im betting Angels would have been in the playoffs it he was better

Cabrera on the other hand was amazing every month and he was there to keep Tigers pushing to the playoffs every months. Seriously 20+ RBI every month is incredible.
This argument is based on offensive stats. I've already beat this one around the bush.

He still drew 20 walks, and still scored 21 runs, and still had a higher OBP than August. I've said this one before, his bat may have cooled down, but he didn't stop doing the things he was doing on 0-4 nights in July.

The pitching staff put them in a hole in August and pitched just average in September.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:59 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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He still drew 20 walks, and still scored 21 runs, and still had a higher OBP than August. I've said this one before, his bat may have cooled down, but he didn't stop doing the things he was doing on 0-4 nights in July.
Draw all the walks he wants. He still wasnt very good. He had a incredible first few months of his career but August and September where not MVP worthy. His team was on the Playoff Push. Texas was fading and he had a terrible month. Even taking in account his Runs which for a leadoff Hitter wasnt very good.

This is why i dont think he was the MVP. You cant be amazing for 4 months and not the rest with your team in the playoff push
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:01 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

FSH - Shut up. You're seriously making my entire argument sound shit.

Seifert - listening. If he even brings up the fact that in the counting stat that is WAR he made his biggest strides compressed in one tiny sample size - I'll give him credit. No one has even brought up the fact that, if you look at his monthly numbers, he wouldn't be MVP if not for that one month.

And as for what you keep saying about defensive numbers: OKAY! Go for it. GET ME THE MONTHLY NUMBERS. Get me the monthly defensive statistics showing me that Miguel Cabrera was worse after April/May than average. Go, do it. I dare you. You keep saying the numbers say this, the numbers say that - but nobody has brought me the numbers that back if up. Nobody. Miguel Cabrera was an average defender past May. Prior to that he submarined his counting numbers for the season.

You guys keep focusing on these counting numbers, and none of you want to look at context. You've turned Cabrera into a total pariah. The guy hit 330 with 40+ homers and was second in the league in RBI percentage apparently SUCKED! Like I said: I think it was a tossup. If you look at RBI percentage, which IS a valid statistic - how often did you drive in the guys that happened to be on base in front of you - Miguel Cabrera was leagues ahead of Mike Trout. A statistic that is INDEPENDENT of whether or not people are getting on base in front of you, instead is dependent on how well you drive them in when they are on. Mike Trout was miles behind Cabrera there.

But he did not at all deserve MVP votes.

Show me the statistics on Cabrera's defense past May.
Show me the statistics showing Trout vs Cabrera WAR discounting each player's best month (tiny sample size of a hot period).

If those numbers prove me blatantly wrong, I will admit you are right. Find me those numbers, and you're right. I am not illogical. I am a huge fan of WAR and statistics, but I'm at least smart enough to understand that you can NOT you can NOT IN ANY FIELD OF STUDY look at statistics in a vacuum. Which is exactly what you people are doing.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:18 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

25 mins in, they're moving on to Marlins-Jays... and Law hasn't said anything that concerns my points. None of the sports writers that are pro-Trout have. All told... just disappointed that it isn't even a talking point. Nobody utilizes statistics within context. I take to heart that we're only a few years into this statistics "revolution." I figure we're still a few years away from taking those numbers, and putting them into context, removing them from the vacuum. Amusing considering how long sabermetrics have been around in baseball, basketball has leapfrogged baseball completely in terms of looking at numbers by situation.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:25 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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FSH - Shut up. You're seriously making my entire argument sound shit.
Hmm wasnt trying to make your argument. Im making mine...Which is again you cant be amazing for first 4 months and average and subpar the next 2 months and expect me to call you MVP

But ya from now on i will make all my post in regard to what you think!
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:17 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Hmm wasnt trying to make your argument. Im making mine...Which is again you cant be amazing for first 4 months and average and subpar the next 2 months and expect me to call you MVP

But ya from now on i will make all my post in regard to what you think!
My point is they were associating your argument with mine. It was annoying me. :P I agree with the sentiment that value counts no matter where in the season it is accrued. So in that regard - I'm in agreement with them over you. I just believe with Trout the more valid point is that his value is bulked into one tiny sample size, and the fact that WAR is a counting stat creates an artificial measure of his full season value.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:15 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Re: MVP Thoughts...

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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
FSH - Shut up. You're seriously making my entire argument sound shit.

Seifert - listening. If he even brings up the fact that in the counting stat that is WAR he made his biggest strides compressed in one tiny sample size - I'll give him credit. No one has even brought up the fact that, if you look at his monthly numbers, he wouldn't be MVP if not for that one month.

And as for what you keep saying about defensive numbers: OKAY! Go for it. GET ME THE MONTHLY NUMBERS. Get me the monthly defensive statistics showing me that Miguel Cabrera was worse after April/May than average. Go, do it. I dare you. You keep saying the numbers say this, the numbers say that - but nobody has brought me the numbers that back if up. Nobody. Miguel Cabrera was an average defender past May. Prior to that he submarined his counting numbers for the season.

You guys keep focusing on these counting numbers, and none of you want to look at context. You've turned Cabrera into a total pariah. The guy hit 330 with 40+ homers and was second in the league in RBI percentage apparently SUCKED! Like I said: I think it was a tossup. If you look at RBI percentage, which IS a valid statistic - how often did you drive in the guys that happened to be on base in front of you - Miguel Cabrera was leagues ahead of Mike Trout. A statistic that is INDEPENDENT of whether or not people are getting on base in front of you, instead is dependent on how well you drive them in when they are on. Mike Trout was miles behind Cabrera there.

But he did not at all deserve MVP votes.

Show me the statistics on Cabrera's defense past May.
Show me the statistics showing Trout vs Cabrera WAR discounting each player's best month (tiny sample size of a hot period).

If those numbers prove me blatantly wrong, I will admit you are right. Find me those numbers, and you're right. I am not illogical. I am a huge fan of WAR and statistics, but I'm at least smart enough to understand that you can NOT you can NOT IN ANY FIELD OF STUDY look at statistics in a vacuum. Which is exactly what you people are doing.
There aren't any sites out there that I know of that gives by monthly defensive sabermetric numbers. I don't know if you can get these stats if you pay for a subscription but currently fangraphs/baseball-reference/espn don't offer this option. Therefore I can't prove you wrong on that.

However seeing that Cabrera's numbers defensively were so bad (according to sabermetrics), it's just hard to imagine that he played "average defense" for the majority of the season. You don't rack up a UZR -10 playing poorly on defense for a month or two, you would pretty much have to butcher every single ball that's hit to you which we both know wasn't the case.

Again, if you want to look at this as a failure to prove you wrong, go ahead. I tried to look for solid stats to backup my argument but they weren't available, all I can do is make a reasonable assumption. What I can say is for an entire season, Cabrera statistically was one of the worst 3rd baseman in the league.

As for the Keith Law interview, in my opinion he already covered every angle that I would cover. If after listen to him still doesn't sway your opinion at the slightest, I doubt anything more that I could say would change your mind. All I can say now is, congratulation that your guy won the MVP. A lot of people don't agree with the decision and it's my guess those people include ones that work at major league front offices that actually earn a living evaluating players. I choose to side with those people since their ways of evaluating players make sense to me.
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